Odds and Ends

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by swish on Mon May 08, 2017 1:57 am

worcester wrote:In defense of Magic and Bird, there were 23 teams back in 1981 and only 12 men on each roster. Talent was much more concentrated and competition was simply better. That's not to say the players then were better than they are now, but it was harder to sweep then because there was more talent on fewer teams. The playoffs were a real dogfight. Look at the SF position just in the East - Bird, Bob McAdoo, Dr. J,  Bob Dandridge, Campy Russell (who shot .435 from three the next year) - those guys could play!

Still, what the Cavs (read LeBron here) are doing with their sweeps is extraordinary. Helluve team. Helluva leader.

worcester

I believe that a strong argument can be made dismissing the idea that the talent level was more concentrated and the competition better back in 1980-81 because of fewer teams. Going from 23 to 30 teams was a 30% increase - off set by a population increase taking the USA from 229 mil in 1981 to 323 mil in 2017, an increase of 41%. Even more significant is the fact that in 1981 there were only 5 players playing in the nba that were not born in the USA. That number has now swelled to 115 players. I didn't do a population check on all the countries represented by all those International players - but I'm sure that the talent pool that the nba draws from now is a few times more than back in the early 80's.

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon May 08, 2017 2:57 am

swish I think the improvements in the players skills and athleticism is more from better advanced regimens in weights, plyometrics, advanced stretching, nutrition, etc than it is more people in the country.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by swish on Mon May 08, 2017 8:18 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:swish I think the improvements in the players skills and athleticism is more from better advanced regimens in weights, plyometrics, advanced stretching, nutrition, etc than it is more people in the country.

 old school

  My comment was not meant to reflect on the skill level of an individual player - but to simply point out the fact that the present game is not watered down because of the increase in the number of teams from 23 to 30.   As to the skill level of the present day nba player versus previous generations - there is no doubt in my mind that the players now a days are much more skilled and athletic - bigger and stronger. While not measurable differences on a year to year basis, they become quite  obvious over a span of generations - and are most noticeable when comparing the 1950's-60's with later generations.


 swish


Last edited by swish on Mon May 08, 2017 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by Shamrock1000 on Mon May 08, 2017 8:57 am

swish wrote:
worcester wrote:In defense of Magic and Bird, there were 23 teams back in 1981 and only 12 men on each roster. Talent was much more concentrated and competition was simply better. That's not to say the players then were better than they are now, but it was harder to sweep then because there was more talent on fewer teams. The playoffs were a real dogfight. Look at the SF position just in the East - Bird, Bob McAdoo, Dr. J,  Bob Dandridge, Campy Russell (who shot .435 from three the next year) - those guys could play!

Still, what the Cavs (read LeBron here) are doing with their sweeps is extraordinary. Helluve team. Helluva leader.

 worcester

 I believe that a strong argument can be made dismissing the idea that the talent level was more concentrated and the competition better back in 1980-81 because of fewer teams. Going from 23 to 30 teams was a 30% increase - off set by a population increase taking the USA from 229 mil in 1981 to 323 mil in 2017, an increase of 41%. Even more significant is the fact that in 1981 there were only 5 players playing in the nba that were not born in the USA. That number has now swelled to 115 players. I didn't do a population check on all the countries represented by all those International players - but I'm sure that the talent pool that the nba draws from now is a few times more than back in the early 80's.

  swish

This is an excellent point - increased population and access to the game means a larger talent pool, and more upper echelon players. Your post emphasized the first point directly - increased population. Increased access to the game is also important. As you said, this includes internationalizations, but it also reflects more American kids taking up the game due to the popularity of the game.

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by worcester on Mon May 08, 2017 9:04 am

Swish, you miss my point. I don't care how good the players were then or now. What matters is that competition is stiffer when you have 23 teams with 12 players on board than 30 teams with 15 players on the roster. Forget how much the USA grew. There were fewer weak teams relative to each other in 1981 because there were fewer teams and fewer players competing against each other. What talent there was was spread out more evenly. I am not suggesting that the teams of 1981 were better than the teams of 2017. ALSO there were fewer playoff games. It's hard to sweep 11 games in a row when there are not that many games played.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon May 08, 2017 10:57 am

worcester wrote:Swish, you miss my point.   I don't care how good the players were then or now. What matters is that competition is stiffer when you have 23 teams with 12 players on board than 30 teams with 15 players on the roster. Forget how much the USA grew. There were fewer weak teams relative to each other in 1981 because there were fewer teams and fewer players competing against each other. What talent there was was spread out more evenly. I am not suggesting that the teams of 1981 were better than the teams of 2017. ALSO there were fewer playoff games. It's hard to sweep 11 games in a row when  there are not that many games played.


no question if there were still 23 teams, instead of 30, the competition to make a roster would be fierce and the teams all would be so much better/stronger with the top players on 7 crappy teams spread to other teams and contenders.....it would actually be very good for the game, but we know its about the money, so with more teams, more money.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by Shamrock1000 on Mon May 08, 2017 10:57 am

worcester wrote:Swish, you miss my point.   I don't care how good the players were then or now. What matters is that competition is stiffer when you have 23 teams with 12 players on board than 30 teams with 15 players on the roster. Forget how much the USA grew. There were fewer weak teams relative to each other in 1981 because there were fewer teams and fewer players competing against each other. What talent there was was spread out more evenly. I am not suggesting that the teams of 1981 were better than the teams of 2017. ALSO there were fewer playoff games. It's hard to sweep 11 games in a row when  there are not that many games played.

Worcester, I don't want to speak for Swish, but I interpreted his post to mean that although there are more teams, that doesn't necessarily mean the talent was diluted. For a given population, there are only so many individuals with the skill and drive to play basketball professionally. If that population doubles, then the number of those special individuals doubles as well. Swish was pointing out that the general population grew more than the population of the nba. He also mentioned international players - another pool of individuals to draw talent from. I would add that as people like Bird, Magic, and Jordan increased the popularity of the league, more kids actually begin playing hoops seriously - yet another way of increasing the talent pool. All that being said, I agree with you that it certainly does feel like there is less parity in the league since the expansions, so maybe the situation is more complicated, and the truth lies somewhere in between.

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by swish on Mon May 08, 2017 11:15 am

worcester wrote:Swish, you miss my point.   I don't care how good the players were then or now. What matters is that competition is stiffer when you have 23 teams with 12 players on board than 30 teams with 15 players on the roster. Forget how much the USA grew. There were fewer weak teams relative to each other in 1981 because there were fewer teams and fewer players competing against each other. What talent there was was spread out more evenly. I am not suggesting that the teams of 1981 were better than the teams of 2017. ALSO there were fewer playoff games. It's hard to sweep 11 games in a row when  there are not that many games played.

worcester

"What talent there was was spread out more evenly."

In regards to your above statement - on average I think that you will find that over the years 50% of the teams play above 500% ball and 50% play below 500% ball.

swish


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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by swish on Mon May 08, 2017 12:02 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
worcester wrote:Swish, you miss my point.   I don't care how good the players were then or now. What matters is that competition is stiffer when you have 23 teams with 12 players on board than 30 teams with 15 players on the roster. Forget how much the USA grew. There were fewer weak teams relative to each other in 1981 because there were fewer teams and fewer players competing against each other. What talent there was was spread out more evenly. I am not suggesting that the teams of 1981 were better than the teams of 2017. ALSO there were fewer playoff games. It's hard to sweep 11 games in a row when  there are not that many games played.


no question if there were still 23 teams, instead of 30, the competition to make a roster would be fierce and the teams all would be so much better/stronger with the top players on 7 crappy teams spread to other teams and contenders.....it would actually be very good for the game, but we know its about the money, so with more teams, more money.

Old school

Of course it's a business - and expansion was a no brainer - and yes the teams would be better if there were only 23 teams or even better if the league reverted back to the old 8 team league of the 1950's. The fact that all sports have expanded over the last 60 plus year is prove that there is a population base fully capable of supporting this expansion over the years.

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by worcester on Mon May 08, 2017 12:03 pm

Swish, that was an observation with which our dearly departed Sam the statistician would whole heartedly concur.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobheckler on Tue May 09, 2017 3:11 pm

Last night the team with the league's #1 offense finished its sweep of the the team with the league's#1 defense, a team with the best (or, certainly top 3) defensive bigs in the game and strong rebounding PFs in Favors and Lyles.

Take note.  If there was any doubt whatsoever, despite the evidence of our struggles with Washington, Cleveland's easy dispatch of Indy and Toronto and San Antonio's struggles with the perimeter-driven offense of the Houston Rockets the sweep of Utah by GSW firmly establishes the pre-eminence of offense over defense in today's NBA.


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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by dboss on Tue May 09, 2017 3:46 pm

bobheckler wrote:Last night the team with the league's #1 offense finished its sweep of the the team with the league's#1 defense, a team with the best (or, certainly top 3) defensive bigs in the game and strong rebounding PFs in Favors and Lyles.

Take note.  If there was any doubt whatsoever, despite the evidence of our struggles with Washington, Cleveland's easy dispatch of Indy and Toronto and San Antonio's struggles with the perimeter-driven offense of the Houston Rockets the sweep of Utah by GSW firmly establishes the pre-eminence of offense over defense in today's NBA.


bob


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bob

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Their defense was over-rated.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by worcester on Tue May 09, 2017 6:06 pm

But GSW's offense was not overrated.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Tue May 09, 2017 6:33 pm

The Golden State offense is so damn good it is scary. This is going to be one hell of a playoff series. Cleveland is dying to shove it right down the throats of those who thought that it would be a cake walk once they added Durant. I know it sounds like I am jumping ahead, considering the fact that Houston is playing excellent ball right now and the Spurs seem to be sputtering especially since Parker is out for the season, and the East has yet to be determined. But it is almost a forgone conclusion that these two teams are on a fast track to collide. This is going to be interesting.

Outcome???? GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS, What do you think?
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobheckler on Tue May 09, 2017 6:47 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:The Golden State offense is so damn good it is scary. This is going to be one hell of a playoff series. Cleveland is dying to shove it right down the throats of those who thought that it would be a cake walk once they added Durant.  I know it sounds like I am jumping ahead, considering the fact that Houston is playing excellent ball right now and the Spurs seem to be sputtering especially since Parker is out for the season, and the East has yet to be determined. But it is almost a forgone conclusion that these two teams are on a fast track to collide.  This is going to be interesting.

Outcome????   GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS,  What do you think?


Rosalie,

I agree. Offense trumps defense in this NBA and Durant is a scoring machine, especially since he doesn't have to carry the team every night with Westbrook. He can take the night off, score 15 and grab a few rebounds, and Curry and Thompson will score 60 between them.

Look at the differences between this year and last. Cleveland has added Deron Williams (who is a shadow of his former self), Channing Frye (a 7' big who makes Kelly look like Charles Atlas. Frye breaks out in hives if he touches paint. Career-to-date Frye only scores 11.3% of his points at the rim, and he's 7') and Mo Williams, another has-been.

GSW added Durant, Zaza, Javale McGee, David West.


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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by Shamrock1000 on Tue May 09, 2017 8:51 pm

bobheckler wrote:Last night the team with the league's #1 offense finished its sweep of the the team with the league's#1 defense, a team with the best (or, certainly top 3) defensive bigs in the game and strong rebounding PFs in Favors and Lyles.

Take note.  If there was any doubt whatsoever, despite the evidence of our struggles with Washington, Cleveland's easy dispatch of Indy and Toronto and San Antonio's struggles with the perimeter-driven offense of the Houston Rockets the sweep of Utah by GSW firmly establishes the pre-eminence of offense over defense in today's NBA.


bob


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bob

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Bob - does this conclusion affect how we evaluate IT's worth? The prevailing argument against giving him the max is his defensive liabilities. If you are correct, then are we giving too much weight to IT'S poor defense?

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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobheckler on Tue May 09, 2017 9:01 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
bobheckler wrote:Last night the team with the league's #1 offense finished its sweep of the the team with the league's#1 defense, a team with the best (or, certainly top 3) defensive bigs in the game and strong rebounding PFs in Favors and Lyles.

Take note.  If there was any doubt whatsoever, despite the evidence of our struggles with Washington, Cleveland's easy dispatch of Indy and Toronto and San Antonio's struggles with the perimeter-driven offense of the Houston Rockets the sweep of Utah by GSW firmly establishes the pre-eminence of offense over defense in today's NBA.


bob


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bob

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Bob - does this conclusion affect how we evaluate IT's worth? The prevailing argument against giving him the max is his defensive liabilities. If you are correct, then are we giving too much weight to IT'S poor defense?


Shamrock,

I don't know about "the max" but a 2x All-Star, perhaps 3x by next year, still in his prime is going to get paid A LOT.

If we don't trade him do we just let him walk for nothing?  That isn't likely, is it?  If we trade him who would we trade him for?  Another All-star, right?  And how big will that All-star's contract be?  Just as big as IT's.  So, one way or another, Danny and Wyc will be writing a big check.


bob


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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by Ktronic1 on Tue May 09, 2017 9:56 pm

To your point. IT has got to stay. I dont see any move out here that remotely makes sense.
Besides IT can fill it up and is a matchup nightmare. Another star to coincide and we're in business.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobc33 on Tue May 09, 2017 10:32 pm

Spurs and Rockets going to OT in crucial game 5. Just tuned in the last five minutes of regulation but it is playoff basketball at its best! Mills hit a three but clearly just after time expired so no basket.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobc33 on Tue May 09, 2017 10:34 pm

Leonard on the bench to start OT? Think it may be an ankle injury, but hard to imagine him not being in the game!
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobc33 on Tue May 09, 2017 10:46 pm

Both teams seem too exhausted to run their offense, sloppy as hell, Spurs up two with 30 seconds to go.

Harden with three TOs in OT.
Danny Green the hero if Spurs hold on.
Gasol and Leonard not playing in OT?
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobheckler on Tue May 09, 2017 10:56 pm

Btw, this thread now has over 10,000 views.  I cannot remember another thread on this board with over 10,000 views.  Congrats and thanks to all the board members (and lurkers) who kept this moving.


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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by bobc33 on Tue May 09, 2017 10:56 pm

Ginobili with a great block on Harden as OT expired to clinch the victory.
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Tue May 09, 2017 11:12 pm

One heck of a game!  I am still not a Harden fan, he may score a lot of points but look how many shots he takes, and free throws
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Re: Odds and Ends

Post by fierce on Tue May 09, 2017 11:52 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:One heck of a game!  I am still not a Harden fan, he may score a lot of points but look how many shots he takes, and free throws

That's on the coach.

D'Antoni lost control of his team down the stretch.

It was like Harden playing the role of playing coach.

The Rockets became too predictable down the stretch.

D'Antoni should have done more coaching instead of leaving it all up to Harden.
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Re: Odds and Ends

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