How did Bill Walker hide his game?

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Post by cowens/oldschool Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:56 pm

Kid scored 23 points tonite leading team in scoring for 2nd game in a row,seems whenever he gets minutes can get his points.Hit 5-8 from 3,last 3 were from 26-27 ft out!!.....where was this when he was here?oh right we were uh not playing him.I'm seeing plenty of star talent/ability as he can also finish crazily and is getting a post game together.Was I the only one that thought he could be a key piece and eventual replacement for Pierce?

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Post by 112288 Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:49 am

Cow,

That is the problem with Doc and he'll never develop a new crop of stars. It would be best to fire or move Doc upstairs when the rebuilding process begins.
Walker was the #1 college player before he hurt his knees in college.

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Post by NESportsfan12 Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:53 am

Surprise surprise.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:13 am

112288
Thats right remember you saying Doc incompetant in developing Walker and the youngins earlier this season,hate losing the kid,he just dunks and skys so effortlessly,now the perimeter game suddenly?Love Nate,but Doc and Danny blew this one bigtime.
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Post by Sam Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:42 am

The Knick are not the Celtics. The Knicks have an offensive style that is ready made for Walker's athleticism. They are up-tempo all the time. That's a great way to play if you have more athleticism than basketball smarts.

The Celtics have been playing with a very different style. Deliberate basketball with only opportunistic up-tempo spurts. It's a more cerebral style at both ends of the floor.

Quite simply, Walker is a better fit for a more athletic, up-tempo Knicks game than he was for a more deliberate, cerebral Celtics game. I haven't heard how he's doing on defense, but it really wouldn't prove anything about his Celtics potential unless the Knicks are playing the same kind of intricate rotating defense the Celtics do. (And I don't believe that's the case.)

There's a reason he looked lost in Boston but seems to have taken to the Knicks offense pretty quickly. It wouldn't be the first time a player went from one team to another and flourished largely because he was better suited to his new team. Apples and oranges.

If Finley should help the Celtics win the championship (would be nice), does that mean Popovitch (sp?) is a lousy coach? No, it would mean Finley was probably better suited for a role that fits a Celtics need than was true in San Antonio.

And what about Nate? He really couldn't play in New York. Disruptive. Benched much of the time. Does that mean Doc should be a Coach of the Year candidate because, in very few games, he has found a really productive role for Nate. Nope, Nate's apparently just a better fit with the Celtics than he was with the Knicks. Vice versa for Walker.

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Post by dboss Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:59 am

Sam you are right about the style but I do not recall any stetch of games where he or Giddens were given a chance to play.

Doc even said that they play great in practice but there were too many players ahead of them. He could not find minutes for either one of them.

This is one of the reasons that I refer to Doc's pecking order mentality. If someone is ahead of you forget about playing even if the guy ahead is not playing well.

To me the trade is ok I do not like it or hate it but the additions of our only two young developing wings makes me not like the trade as much. So far I do not see where Nate is adding any more energy than Eddie did. Nate can get hot from deep and so could Eddie.

I think the trade is a huge gamble where there is only one possible outcome that will be acceptable...winning the championship this year!
But if the Celtics are not able to win this year and DA decides it is time to rebuild next year, he is at square 0 instead of having two young wing players that would probably be ready to step in.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:00 am

Sam
I like Nate already hes shown he can be a spark similar to a Jamal Crawford type,however as an all around player Bill Walker can do some things already better than Joe Johnson,another young player who was here and developed into an all star.I'm sure Walker learned alot while he was here,he didn't just develop the 3 point shot in the last two weeks and he got to see two HoF wings practice and prepare upclose for 2 years.My point is Doc failed to figure out a way to utilize him,no player is perfect,hes late on defensive rotations,so what?eventually hes got the ability to figure out these mental things.We took a gamble drafting him,why now after drafting him you don't give him a chance to fully develop.Knicks found a diamond in the rough,John Andraise loves this kid.
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Post by beat Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:40 am

Will be interesting to see how Walker does over a longer term say at least by the end of this season.

in the 4 games he has gotten 20+ he has a total of 11 rebounds 9 asst 3 To's and 5 steals.

Also interesting to note in those 4 games he is 9 for 18 from 3.
I really don't think any of us thought he had that kind of range.

Mistake? Who knows.
Style of play perhaps.

But I always thought a coach shuld be able to adapt to styles. Yeah our starting unit was basically a non fast break unit but we did have some whom could get out and force tempo too.

Using the talent we have to the best of their ability not conforming them to a predetermined style that suits the coaches whims.

I really question Doc on this one but time will judge the true merits of the trade.

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Post by Sam Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:48 am

Dboss and Cow,

As far as this season is concerned, what it comes down to for me is the fact that Nate seems to offer the type of shot in the arm that will give the Celtics a better chance at returning to contending form than the combination of Eddie, Walker and Giddens would have done.

Dboss, one thing Nate is doing that Eddie didn't do is making playmaking a priority. Eddie did his best at playmaking, but his best was not as good as Nate's already is. And I'm hopeful that, over the next couple of months of getting used to the system, Nate's playmaking will get even better. I loved that baseline pass he threaded to Sheed the other night; that's no an Eddie-type play. Another thing Nate does that Eddie didn't do is to represent two types of offensive threats (outside and penetration), which presents greater challenges for the opponent.

And, in being a better playmaker (in my opinion) than Eddie as well as spreading the floor as Eddie did, Nate positively influences four other players whereas Eddie was pretty much a one-man shock trooper.

Moreover, both Eddie and Nate are short. But Nate's doing a better job than Eddie did at the PG position, where the opponents are shorter than at the SG position. So I actually like Nate's potential on defense better than Eddie's as long as Nate's playing PG. And Doc has numerous options at SG and doesn't have to play Nate there unless he feels that teaming him with Rondo will achieve a goal that will outweigh a defensive liability.

Another thing that Nate does that Eddie didn't do is to enable Doc to play a veteran combination completely comprised of non-starters (Sheed at center, Davis at PF, Finley or Tony or Quis at the wings, and Nate at PG), with none of them playing out of position. That gives Doc another series of options in terms of matchups.

As for the future, I guess I'm just one of those who is so focused on what happens this season that I'll let Danny take care of the future AND could be played out on a landscape very different from the one we now see. Whatever moves Danny may or may not now make, my expectation is that he'll make them based on the realities he's presented with at the end of the playoffs:

• whether Nate's worth trying to keep;

• how KG and PP withstood the rigors of the last one-quarter of the season and the playoffs;

• whether Ray's shot proved consistent down the stretch;

• whether Tony and Davis stepped up and became sufficiently reliable contributors;

• whether it's time to focus less on veterans and more on up-tempo basketball in shaping the roster;

• how the winds are blowing with respect to the Collective Bargaining Agreement;

• how the Celtics' finances stand;

• ete., etc., etc.

I guess I'm a fan of not mortgaging the present in favor of the future. I'm interested in reading all the conjecture about the future. I'm just not all that committed to it.

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Post by NYCelt Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:27 pm

Cowens,

One thing I haven't seen mention of with Walker is his defense. Sure on a few occasions now he's filling it up but can he stop anyone? I really don't have any idea, and wonder what you've seen if you're catching any Knicks games.

I've always agreed with the theory that any player in the NBA can come away with a big point total if he's fed the ball enough. And I really mean any player. I know you've always felt Walker has potential, and maybe you've watched closer than me, but I wonder if what we're seeing is just that NY doesn't have many options so Walker gets the ball.

I also wonder if in terms of our future lineup, minus Pierce, having Daniels made Walker expendable. Factor in the chance to take a look at someone who might fit into our back court longer term and you've got Pierce's successor in Daniels plus with Nate you've got someone who can spell Rondo or join Rondo on the floor in a speedy, albeit small, backcourt. With that in mind, If I'm Danny I'd have traded Walker too.

Just a few thoughts.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:33 pm

Sam
Great analysis of Nate,your caring about this season,thats fine.I'm caring about this season and the next and the next....I can't believe for that stretch when Pierce and Quis were out,Walker wasn't just given a 25 minute run to play through his mistakes and I'm not buying that theres too much structure for a talented athletic player on this or any team,why even have a draft?I agree we need Nate,I'm going to continue following Walker.....can't believe we didn't learn from the Joe Johnson trade how young players can grow.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:44 pm

NYCelt wrote:Cowens,

One thing I haven't seen mention of with Walker is his defense. Sure on a few occasions now he's filling it up but can he stop anyone? I really don't have any idea, and wonder what you've seen if you're catching any Knicks games.

I've always agreed with the theory that any player in the NBA can come away with a big point total if he's fed the ball enough. And I really mean any player. I know you've always felt Walker has potential, and maybe you've watched closer than me, but I wonder if what we're seeing is just that NY doesn't have many options so Walker gets the ball.

I also wonder if in terms of our future lineup, minus Pierce, having Daniels made Walker expendable. Factor in the chance to take a look at someone who might fit into our back court longer term and you've got Pierce's successor in Daniels plus with Nate you've got someone who can spell Rondo or join Rondo on the floor in a speedy, albeit small, backcourt. With that in mind, If I'm Danny I'd have traded Walker too.

Just a few thoughts.

Regards


I'm not knocking Nate,I'm knocking the way Walker was used,not used here.....suddenly hes got a 3 point game,that startled me.I have been following him on MSG and Clyde,Andraise,forget the name of the other game on voice?all are throwing this kid alot of praise already and they seem to know alittle about the game.Walker has far exceeded my expectations since he put on a Knick uniform.I can't judge Walkers defense because as a team the Knick D is nothing like ours,but he has come up with a few steals that have already led to highlight finishes and they have played him alot at the 2 which he has handled well.

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Post by bobheckler Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:28 pm

As with the Celtics, Walker is up and down with the Knicks. He has had some really good games and then he disappears for a few.

I completely concur with Sam's perspective. Different skill sets will make players look better or worse in different systems. Mike D'Antoni's run-and-run style of play is perfect for an athlete. Another system Walker would probably do well in is Nellieball. Run the ball and take 3s on offense and run at people on defense. I'm not saying this as a knock or plaudit on D'Antoni or Nellie, but that's their systems and to make that system work you need the right type of horses. In Doc and Thib's system you need to be a basketball player, almost more than you need to be an athlete. Do you think Paul Pierce or KG, both of whom have high IQs but are no racehorses, would fit in well with either of those two coach's systems?

This isn't a zero-sum game. Just because a players a bust over here and a perfect 10 over there doesn't mean one team/coach is a loser and the other is a genius. It means they realized the player's a round peg, and maybe that's all he is, and round pegs fit better into a round hole.


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Post by beat Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:55 pm

Bob

Question?

What did we get him for in the first place if THAT is the case? (I.E round peg bit)
What did the powers that be see in him at the college level that made them think he would be a FIT here?

I know what your saying but in this case I feel the C's might end up regreting this decision in the long run.

In a league that is gettin teams that appear to be successful being young and athletic I think we gave up too much for what we got.

Just got a gut feeling about this one.

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Post by bobheckler Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:28 pm

beat wrote:Bob

Question?

What did we get him for in the first place if THAT is the case? (I.E round peg bit)
What did the powers that be see in him at the college level that made them think he would be a FIT here?

I know what your saying but in this case I feel the C's might end up regreting this decision in the long run.

In a league that is gettin teams that appear to be successful being young and athletic I think we gave up too much for what we got.

Just got a gut feeling about this one.

beat


beat,

You may, in the final analysis, be right about giving up too much. Time will tell.

Bill Walker is a freakish athlete. Athlete's are coveted in professional sports (e.g. Gerald Green. How many teams gave him a chance before he finally realized he's going to have to rent an apartment in Europe).

Of course, if Bill Walker were to need a third knee surgery (he's already has had two) this conversation may take a very different turn. And that's part of the equation too. Walker may be a highly coveted athlete when he's healthy, but healthy has been an elusive state for him.

bob

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Post by beat Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:36 pm

Bob

I have thought of the knee angle of it too. That is something we can never know about (until it happens I guess)
In that respect wonder how Powe will do today against us?

But really what did DA and Doc and the management see in him that the drafted him in the first place? Yeah he was later pick and they usually don't make it far BUT when healthy in college he was just short of Dominating.
Were not both injuries a while ago?

I know NYCelt spoke of his defense and in that respect it is hard to tell how well he would preform on a team that actually played it.

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Post by bobheckler Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:48 pm

beat,

Actually, we do know how Bill Walker performed on a team that played defense. The Celtics coaching staff (i.e. Thib) found him inconsistent and unfocused. The fact that he's currently on a team where defense is not Priority 1 might cover up his weakness, because the system plays to his athletic strengths, but it doesn't make it go away.

As far as what they saw when they drafted Walker, can I remind you that he was the #47 pick? That pick is all but a throw away. What did every other GM in the league see in him that made them pass over Bill Walker once (including Danny) and most of them pass over him twice? At 47, he was a no lose pick.


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Post by spike Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:14 pm

If Walker is another Joe Johnson, what about it? We got to see Joe J. in a do or die series with the Celtics, surrounded by a cast of wonderful players, with him in the role of leader. Let's just say, if it was do or die, he didn't do. His defense was sporadic, he shot every time he got his hands on the ball, and he didn't exhibit any noticeable leadership abilities.

The ability or quality of teamwork is hard to quantify but has to be taken into account when you evaluate an athlete. Don't know if Bill Walker has it or not, but he came up as a star athlete, a gimme-the-damn-ball type guy, and they are not necessarily team players.


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Post by bobheckler Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:15 pm

beat,

An amendment to the above post.

Bill Walker was drafted by the Washington Wizards with the 47th pick and then traded to Boston for cash considerations. So, Washington didn't even think he was worth a future 2nd rounder, much less a real player.

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Post by Sam Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:23 pm

This is a great example of what can be good about a sports message board. Back and forth, point after point. And nary a putdown.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:48 pm

He was taken at #47 so what?Watch a Knick game sometime,he floats to the rim so effortlessly and can finish in traffic way better than Gerald Green,hes got a prototype body.Every poster on this board knows we have an athletcism issue,well thats gonna continue.....frustrating had a piece right on our porch,in our backyard.

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Post by mrkleen09 Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:29 am

Comparing Bill Walker to Paul Pierce is pretty funny Cowens.

He is playing on a terrible team, with no pressure, at the end of a miserable season. Talk about taking a few good games out of context.

I think Bill Walker is a great athlete. I think he would have been drafted much higher had he not hurt his knee on multiple occasions. But to make the leap from a good athlete having a few good games on a last place team - to comparing him to a first ballot hall of famer is laughable. Lets have Walker put in 8 or 9 or 11 good years in a row...and THEN we can bring him up in the same breath as PP.
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Post by beat Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:40 am

mrkleen

Where does Cow compare Walker to Pierce?
I did read the words replacement for Pierce in a couple years.

Pierce is not a first ballot HOFer in my opinion either.

I tend to agree with Cow. Take the pressure angle or whatever you choose. Bottom Line he is scoring and scoring from three also.
Should he have gotten more of a look here? perhaps.
I've watched a couple of hie NY games and he has looked very comfortable.

Walker is playing for his future too. He'd love a bigger contract no doubt.

In 2 years the C's "may" look back and wish they had not let him go.

We shall see what unfolds.

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Post by mrkleen09 Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:56 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:frustrating had a piece right on our porch,in our backyard.

Fair enough...I thought he said we had a "Pierce" right on our bench...not a piece...lol.
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Post by mrkleen09 Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:04 am

beat wrote:mrkleen

Where does Cow compare Walker to Pierce?
I did read the words replacement for Pierce in a couple years.

Pierce is not a first ballot HOFer in my opinion either.

I tend to agree with Cow. Take the pressure angle or whatever you choose. Bottom Line he is scoring and scoring from three also.
Should he have gotten more of a look here? perhaps.
I've watched a couple of hie NY games and he has looked very comfortable.

Walker is playing for his future too. He'd love a bigger contract no doubt.

In 2 years the C's "may" look back and wish they had not let him go.

We shall see what unfolds.

beat

Guess we will have to see about Pierce and the HOF. He looks like an absolutely lock to me and basketball reference has his chances as 95.4%.

43rd all time scoring list
14th all time 3 pointers made
19th all time FT made
29th all time career scoring average
39th all time in steals
8 of 11 years an all star

If Pierce isn’t a lock, I don’t know who is.
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