How did Bill Walker hide his game?

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Post by Guest Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:51 pm

No trolls yet? I guess I am considered a troll if I don't drink the Boston Kool-aid.
I am trying to decult the Stepford Wives Celtics fans on this board.

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Post by pete Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:00 pm

tjmakz wrote:No trolls yet? I guess I am considered a troll if I don't drink the Boston Kool-aid.
I am trying to decult the Stepford Wives Celtics fans on this board.

We are always willing to listen & debate opposing views. It is important to try to stick with the facts, and keep it civil without too much bashing on any team, or poster. Thats all, really.

Speaking for myself, I am here to learn more by either discussing, or reading a well written post.

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Post by Sam Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:01 pm

Michael,

Perhaps it was Rondo and Perk who were the aberrations...players who were able to demonstrate somehow (probably in practice as well as in games) that they had whatever Doc was looking for in possible contributors to the Celtics form of system (as distinct from simpler, more athletically dependent systems).

I've also read many claims that Doc only played Powe and Davis because he was forced to. But those who make such claims don't seem to ask whether it's only because he didn't throw them in there sooner that their confidence wasn't destroyed and they were ready when he was "forced" to play them.

There were also a lot of people who claimed Gerald Green was the next coming of Reggie Lewis and who castigated Doc for not giving him more run sooner.

The fact is that this is one example of the fact that there are hosts of factors that go into determining which of the 13-15 players entrusted to a coach are going to be developed more quickly than others. And many of those factors we know nothing about.

Based on the relatively small number of factors I, like other fans, could see, it seemed, in the Celtics system, Walker was a one-trick offensive pony who was otherwise lost whenever he did get minutes on the floor. I have no idea what he did in practice.

If the Celtics had been intent on changing their system to run-and-gun, it would probably have made more sense to keep both Bill and Giddens. But it's obvious that they did not have that in mind. So what they did was to to get a player who does have much greater athletic abilities than Eddie and a much more versatile offensive arsenal than Eddie and much more defensive ability than I ever saw in Walker or Eddie and much more playmaking ability than any of the three who were traded for him.

Years down the road, I won't be at all surprised if the Celtics become a run-and-gun team both to take advantage of their leader Rondo's capabilities and because all the young guys they'll be able to afford will have more athletic ability than basketball savvy—like the Knicks. At that time, maybe people will be unhappy because, years earlier, the Celtics didn't keep Bill Walker. But that's basketball life. The Celtics are trying to win a championship this season.

I hope for the best for Walker, Giddens and Eddie. And I hope this trade turns into one that genuinely helps both teams. The objective of a trade is not to screw the other guy. Red's ability to get the better of deals was why there were numerous teams that would no longer trade with him—a severe limitation.

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Post by bigpygme Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:44 pm

Sam, thanks - alll very cogent and on point (which i unfortunately sometimes drift far away from, riddled with ADD as i am ! How did Bill Walker hide his game? - Page 4 Icon_smile )

actually i posted much earlier on another thread here the point you and many have made here on this thread, that Walker may flourish in NY, but that doesn't mean he was going to here, or that the trade was a mistake. and i don't think it was.

though he has come a looong way, Perk may not be the best example of a player who's flourished under Doc's tutelage. he's again taking that extra dribble under the basket to get set instead of just taking it up strong. still seemingly a work very much in progress.

but what i was really just sayin, i don't see Doc developing younger guys all that well, as a generality. someone else besides Doc perhaps might also address the apparent changing of the guard that's underway with more leadership, as Doc's approach SEEMS to be pretty much hands-off, while posters here are suggesting line-up changes and other semi-radical approaches to personnel and playing time.

but it's certainly true that i don't have the skinny on practices or the locker room, "black box" areas that no one can know about but we can always point to as explanations for things we can't otherwise explain. so, like all of us, i'll wait and see how these last 20 or so games develop, and wish and hope for the best, and cheer on the men in green.

best regards,
Michael
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Post by swedeinestonia Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:50 pm

Getting the most out of limited personnel and winning championships usually takes different coaches.

Doc seems to be more towards the winning championships kind. Don Nelson might be more towards the "doing a lot with small resources" kind.

The right coach for the right players, always a good combo required.
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Post by mrkleen09 Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:45 pm

tjmakz wrote:No trolls yet? I guess I am considered a troll if I don't drink the Boston Kool-aid.
I am trying to decult the Stepford Wives Celtics fans on this board.

No, you are considered a TROLL when the breadth of your posts consist of ridiculous trade suggestions - and arguing with well established members using no facts or common sense.

If you want to bring an opposing view, bring it strong - and people will respect you. We have seen no evidence of your ability to do that to this point.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:04 am

mrkleen09 wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Everyone keeps saying Rondo has nobody to run with,thats more the point,Worthy being the extreme,if Walker is an all star 2-3 years from now.....what do you know?took you 18 years to graduate college.

I know one thing. Bill Walker is no James Worthy, and anyone that is trying to make the comparison loses a bit of credibility in my eyes. Sorry.


you sure do assume alot,the original post mentioning Worthy did not have any actual comparisons to James Worthy,I was just using an example of what type of player,the potential that we might have lost,are you going to grad school now?

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Post by jeb Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:41 am

tjmakz wrote:No trolls yet? I guess I am considered a troll if I don't drink the Boston Kool-aid.
I am trying to decult the Stepford Wives Celtics fans on this board.

great way to start a discussion. grow up.
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Post by mrkleen09 Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:41 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Everyone keeps saying Rondo has nobody to run with,thats more the point,Worthy being the extreme,if Walker is an all star 2-3 years from now.....what do you know?took you 18 years to graduate college.

I know one thing. Bill Walker is no James Worthy, and anyone that is trying to make the comparison loses a bit of credibility in my eyes. Sorry.


you sure do assume alot,the original post mentioning Worthy did not have any actual comparisons to James Worthy,I was just using an example of what type of player,the potential that we might have lost,are you going to grad school now?

Cowens....I like you and respect your posts out here...so I want to let this drop.

Bill Walker last night was exactly what we have all described....brilliant in a few spots....and completely overmatched in others. I think he seems like a nice kid and I wish him the best. I think it was the right deal for this Celtics team, this season...and that is all that matters. Playing monday morning quarterback 5 years later is neither difficult nor helpful.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:09 am

kleen
Relax I'm just having fun with you,been to Professor Thoms lately?Nate will help us,he can be a spark.Walker could be the next Joe Johnson.If we don't have a good/great replacement for Pierce in a few years.....then we'll have to see what Danny can pull off next.
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Post by beat Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:19 am

MD

I always like looking back at trades years later and see how things turned out.

Especially in baseball when a nobody becomes a somebody and that trades are a lot easier to make in that sport.

basketball is so restricted in so many ways "big" trades don't happen too much any more.

I think a little of Walker last night too was trying perhaps a bit too hard. Again he hasn't seen a whole lot of action this season. Perhaps if he earns the time for the remainder of this season and works his fanny of in the off season he could open a few more eyes next year for the Knicks or someone else.

We got the hand we've got for now. And perhaps we are seeing a few signs that things are starting to fall in place a little bit more. Hopefully we can continue to play well win or loose, as we head to the finish of the reg season. And also stay HEALTHY!!!!

beat


Last edited by beat on Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by MDCelticFan Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:56 am

Beat: The signs we are seeing are vs, the Knicks & Pistons, while I'll take the "W's" against any team at this point, I'll reserve optimism for seeing those signs against particularly Dallas & Utah this weekend!-MD.

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Post by Sam Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:03 am

TJmaxz,

This is a board for the use of Celtics fans and friends of Celtics fans. That happens to include some Lakers fans who who have come here without agendas concerning Celtics fans. These Lakers fans seem to enjoy the conversation and at least a lot of the people on the board, which is what keeps them coming back despite the fact that they must wade through an understandably huge number of posts supporting the Celtics.

When someone (Lakers fan or not) arrives with an agenda concerning Celtics fans, that imbues him or her with troll-like tendencies from the perspective of many board members (including me). Claiming to want to "decult the Stepford Wives Celtics fans" represents a self-admitted agenda concerning Celtics fans. At least that's my perspective.

If a Celtics fan wants to express unabashed support for the Celtics, this is one place to do it. If, in the process, the Celtics fan even resorts to hyperbole in the course of his/her enthusiasm, it's allowable. (Very often, the substantial basketball acumen on this board may find some non-confrontational way to cut through the hyperbole; so we don't need outside "help" for that.)

The one thing this board most emphatically does NOT need is a zealot who's intent on doing a makeover on Celtics fans. That would be antithetical to the best interests of this forum.

I honestly believe you'd be much happier if you chose another forum on which to post. We're not banning you, because that would be too severe a move for just one transgression with no official warnings. But you should consider this to be your official warning, and you should consider yourself to be out of mulligans here. No more leniency. If you can post civilly and without agenda under that condition, be my guest.

I understand that one's first temptation upon receiving a message like this is to become offended and claim we're tying to limit freedom of speech. That's not at all true. Many of us have learned a lot about the Lakers and have gained in our respect of the Celtics-Lakers competition because people like Babyskyhook and Mustang have found the secret of posting without agenda on the message board of a competitor. What we are trying to limit is the abuse of this forum's privileges. You're right on the edge.

Like anyone else on this board, you're welcome to contact me off the board if you have questions. You may use either the private message function (click on "You have no new messages" at the top of this screen) or email (SlipSamCelt@aol.com).

Thank you,

Sam
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Post by KellyGreen17 Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:06 am

MD, while I do agree that this weekends games are a better test of where we're at, optimism shouldn't be based solely on results, it's more of a state of mind. I'm choosing to save praise for when they start beating over .500 teams, but I'm still optimistic that they have a shot this year. I'm not trying to play semantics games with you, I'm just saying you can still be optimistic and have a positive attitude even if you aren't entirely satisfied with the results.
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Post by Guest Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:00 pm

Sam wrote:TJmaxz,

This is a board for the use of Celtics fans and friends of Celtics fans. That happens to include some Lakers fans who who have come here without agendas concerning Celtics fans. These Lakers fans seem to enjoy the conversation and at least a lot of the people on the board, which is what keeps them coming back despite the fact that they must wade through an understandably huge number of posts supporting the Celtics.

When someone (Lakers fan or not) arrives with an agenda concerning Celtics fans, that imbues him or her with troll-like tendencies from the perspective of many board members (including me). Claiming to want to "decult the Stepford Wives Celtics fans" represents a self-admitted agenda concerning Celtics fans. At least that's my perspective.

If a Celtics fan wants to express unabashed support for the Celtics, this is one place to do it. If, in the process, the Celtics fan even resorts to hyperbole in the course of his/her enthusiasm, it's allowable. (Very often, the substantial basketball acumen on this board may find some non-confrontational way to cut through the hyperbole; so we don't need outside "help" for that.)

The one thing this board most emphatically does NOT need is a zealot who's intent on doing a makeover on Celtics fans. That would be antithetical to the best interests of this forum.

I honestly believe you'd be much happier if you chose another forum on which to post. We're not banning you, because that would be too severe a move for just one transgression with no official warnings. But you should consider this to be your official warning, and you should consider yourself to be out of mulligans here. No more leniency. If you can post civilly and without agenda under that condition, be my guest.

I understand that one's first temptation upon receiving a message like this is to become offended and claim we're tying to limit freedom of speech. That's not at all true. Many of us have learned a lot about the Lakers and have gained in our respect of the Celtics-Lakers competition because people like Babyskyhook and Mustang have found the secret of posting without agenda on the message board of a competitor. What we are trying to limit is the abuse of this forum's privileges. You're right on the edge.

Like anyone else on this board, you're welcome to contact me off the board if you have questions. You may use either the private message function (click on "You have no new messages" at the top of this screen) or email (SlipSamCelt@aol.com).

Thank you,

Sam


Sam,

I respect you because you have a great reputation on the Boston.com boards and you always seem civil in your discussions. I understand the warning part and recognize that this is your board which all seem to be happy with.
People on this board are easy to label people a troll because some don't always agree with Celtics fans viewpoints. I am not sure what I even said that is due a warning from you, maybe it was my trade proposal yesterday that you or others didn't like, thus being called a troll by a few people.
If you want to send me a PM with what I said to get a warning, feel free to do so.

Thanks.

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Post by bobheckler Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:04 pm

sam,

The one thing this board most emphatically does NOT need is a zealot who's intent on doing a makeover on Celtics fans. That would be antithetical to the best interests of this forum.

Not only is that antithetical to the best interests of this forum, it is also impossible. That would be like me going to Lakersground or lakersnation and try to convince them they're all deluded. Couldn't happen. The only people I'd convince were other trolls, not Lakers fans.

bob

/
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Post by Sam Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:56 pm

TJ,

Since you answered pubicly, I'll answer publicly. What you said was precisely what I quoted you as saying. Unfortunately, the word "troll" has become almost a synonym for anything that's undesirable. It's usually reserved for someone whose motives are not trusted. The viewpoints of such people are subjected to more stringent filters than the opinions of those whose motives all have come to trust.

If your motives were such that they really could be trusted, you had every right to communicate with me about the use of the word "troll" to describe you. But you elected, instead, to respond with a seldom-used label that I know to be both inaccurate and insulting. Neither Celtics fandom in general nor this board is a "cult." And neither Boston fandom in general nor this board represents the unthinking kinds of sheep implied in the term "Stepford Wives. In effect, you confirmed, with your "decult" message, that people on this board should, indeed, be wary of your agenda.

So I elected to issue the warning, and I wouldn't change a word of it.

I've had extensive off-board conversations with Lakers fans who are valued members of this board. I understand that being a non-Celtics fan and posting on this board require rather extraordinary qualities...chief among them being restraint. It's not easy, and I feel honored that they're willing to make the effort. You may want to think carefully about whether it's worth your while to continue posting here, because the leash is very short.

Sam
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Post by Guest Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:16 pm

Sam wrote:TJ,

Since you answered pubicly, I'll answer publicly. What you said was precisely what I quoted you as saying. Unfortunately, the word "troll" has become almost a synonym for anything that's undesirable. It's usually reserved for someone whose motives are not trusted. The viewpoints of such people are subjected to more stringent filters than the opinions of those whose motives all have come to trust.

If your motives were such that they really could be trusted, you had every right to communicate with me about the use of the word "troll" to describe you. But you elected, instead, to respond with a seldom-used label that I know to be both inaccurate and insulting. Neither Celtics fandom in general nor this board is a "cult." And neither Boston fandom in general nor this board represents the unthinking kinds of sheep implied in the term "Stepford Wives. In effect, you confirmed, with your "decult" message, that people on this board should, indeed, be wary of your agenda.

So I elected to issue the warning, and I wouldn't change a word of it.

I've had extensive off-board conversations with Lakers fans who are valued members of this board. I understand that being a non-Celtics fan and posting on this board require rather extraordinary qualities...chief among them being restraint. It's not easy, and I feel honored that they're willing to make the effort. You may want to think carefully about whether it's worth your while to continue posting here, because the leash is very short.

Sam

Sam,

You are 100% right that my post yesterday about Stepford Wives was insulting and uncalled for. I apologize to you and the other members here. I will not resort to such language in the future. I did not know that I have the option of sending you a message about a member who shows verbal hostility toward me.

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Post by Sam Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:31 pm

TJ,

Thank you. Yes, any member is always welcome to contact me with matters of concern. I try to be responsive as quickly and best as I can.

You may note that I just started a thread asking all members to refrain from using "labeling" language in threads. I believe it to be the #1 instigator of forum problems because (1) it makes things personal and (2) on a board comprised of naturally competitive people, reprisals are almost inevitable.

Thanks for your response.

Sam
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Post by MDCelticFan Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:52 am

The original Stepford Wives of the late 60's or early 70's was much better than the remake a number of decades later. Also is hypebole anything like hypertension? I have to take medication for that! (LOL)-MD.!

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Post by bobheckler Tue May 11, 2010 12:08 pm

Saw this on RealGM and thought I'd resurrect this thread for a day.

Might help to explain why some players are doing better in NY than they did here in Boston.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/66502/20100511/knicks_players_laughed_when_asked_if_dantoni_practices_defense/

bob

.
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Post by LACELTFAN Tue May 11, 2010 2:34 pm

Bob,
I heard a rumor that even Pheonix is starting to play some D? Howz that working out for them?
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