Is James Young A Bust?

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Is James Young A Bust? Empty Is James Young A Bust?

Post by bobheckler on Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:19 am

MY NOTE:  This was on Celticsblog.  It is a round-table discussion by Celticblog staff members.  I thought we'd have the conversation too, but open it up to everybody (we have moderators here, whose primary jobs are to prevent the board from descending into total entropic chaos and to ensure we maintain conviviality and civility, but no "staff" in the usual sense of the word.  This is a pretty egalitarian society here, anybody can start threads and contribute to existing threads, as long as you register and create an ID.  Different approach, not 'better or worse').



http://www.celticsblog.com/2016/3/22/11282884/staff-round-table-discussion-on-james-youngs-status-with-the-boston



Staff round-table discussion on James Young's status with the Boston Celtics


By Jeff Clark  @celticsblog on Mar 22, 2016, 8:40a 38



Is James Young A Bust? Usa-today-9188926.0
David Butler II-USA TODAY Sports
DNP - Bust



Hot take alert: I'm done with James Young. I'm done with the age excuse. I'm done with giving him time to develop. I'm done because in two years he's done.... nothing. He's a shooter that can't shoot. A defensive liability at all times. He's a D-League All Star that can't make the jump. The team needed him to step up with Jae Crowder out and he stepped back.

I don't dislike the kid or wish him any ill will, and if he turns things around and becomes a decent NBA player, I'll happily eat my words. But I wouldn't blink if he were traded or cut in the offseason. You roll the dice when you make draft selections and this one came up empty. Time to move on.

I invited the staff to convince me otherwise. Here's the discussion that followed.


Tim MacLean

Starting to agree. I gave him the benefit of the doubt last year because he wasn't even 20 yet. But he hasn't shown any signs of development at the NBA level. Brad's given him a couple of chances over the past few weeks in either garbage time or meaningful minutes and he hasn't made any plays that make me think, "Ok I see what a little bit of a sign here."

Like you said, if he becomes serviceable then more power to him. But right now I wouldn't exactly be devastated if the Celtics parted ways with him in the near future.


Wes Howard

Couldn't agree more, although I don't really like the idea that youth should be as big a factor in determining a prospect's value as it is right now.

The question on my mind is this - would any other team want him? With the way he's played, would he help or hinder a deal getting done?


Sean Penney

There was a lot of excitement when the Celtics drafted Young two years ago, with some claiming he was a steal at the 17th overall pick.That excitement has now faded, as it's clear at this point that the pick hasn't panned out. Young's best asset was supposed to be his sweet shooting stroke, but he shot poorly from three point range as a rookie and has somehow regressed to a horrendous 23.1 percent from beyond the arc. He's completely lost on the defensive end, which is a liability the Celtics can't afford if he's not making up for it by being the lights out shooter we hoped he would be.

Perhaps moving to a team with low expectations that can afford to give him extended minutes and let him hoist up shots will eventually lead to him finding himself, but it's not going to happen here in Boston.

Jake Keaney

Young definitely hasn't shown any evidence of improving as a shooter since last season, which, as Sean noted, was supposed to be his calling card. While playing fewer minutes this year compared to last year (332 total minutes in '14-'15 vs. 193 total minutes in '15-'16), his three-point and two-point shooting percentage have both regressed, resulting in a decrease in true shooting percentage to 38.4% from 45.7%.

However, I would note that at 20 years old, Young remains, well, younger than Jordan Mickey (21), R.J. Hunter (22), and Terry Rozier (22). Additionally, FiveThirtyEight's CARMELO NBA player projections have Young tagged as a better prospect than the three Celtics rookies based on projected Wins Above Replacement, albeit with extremely wide margins of error.

That said, Young hasn't done too much this season to instill a ton of confidence in me that he'll be able to crack the Celtics' rotation for the rest of this season and into the next. If an off-season or early-next-season trade not involving Young reduces the Cs' depth at the guard positions, maybe he'll see more meaningful playing time in the fall. Otherwise, we might be seeing the last of him in a Celtics uniform.

Wes Howard

In response to the idea that youth is a direct correlation with potential production, I would like to cite an example with which we are all familiar - Amir Johnson. He came into the NBA as a very young player, right out of high school. He's still 28 years old, but his body has started to break down because of the minutes he has played over his career. We're even starting to see a little bit of the same thing with Lebron. I would argue that minutes, rather than age, are the defining factor in a player's longevity, when combined with size, play-style, health habit, etc.

By the way, that is not meant as an indictment against Johnson in any way - I love the guy, and he's certainly come on strong in the past few games. It is simply an observation about the status of his health, and his ability to play extended minutes.

Bill Sy

Here's my thing about James Young: forget his draft position and his age. Disregard the scouting reports, the analytics, and the handful of minutes that he's played over the last two seasons. The simple fact of the matter is that James Young doesn't play. In his rookie season, he was behind a bunch of players in the depth chart and this season, he's in the same predicament with Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, Marcus Smart, Jae Crowder, and Jonas Jerebko. You could argue that by now, he should have shown something by now to earn Brad Stevens' trust and some playing time, but realistically, come on. He's a kid.

On a really bad team with a young roster (like the Sixers), he'd consistently get 20-25 minutes a night for an entire season. That's what Marcus Smart and Kelly Olynyk have played over the last two years; neither player has been the picture of consistency, but we've seen flashes and that's why we're a little forgiving with their lack of production every night. Until Young gets a real chance, it's unfair to pass any judgement on him.

You have to remember that Young was drafted to be a scorer. That's probably the most difficult role to grow in to. Defense (think Smart, Bradley, and to some extent, Jordan Mickey) transfers over from college. Adjusting to the speed and size of the pro game and knowing where your shots come from against NBA defenses takes years (and playing time) to develop.


Bobby Manning

James Young is the kind of player you'd love to see or hear about in terms of their off-the-court effort. Does he put in maximum effort? Is he involved and focused in learning the system and playing the game right? Why isn't he in the rotation in year two.

I don't buy into the notion that there isn't room for him on the team. When you look at where he succeeded in college, it's still an area the Celtics could use some help in: wing scoring and shooting. He's supposed to be a playmaker but in spots where the team gives him a chance he seems uninvolved and hesitant. I wonder if it could even be an attitude issue. He was a front man at Kentucky and playing for Maine probably wasn't what he envisioned when he thought about what his role would be in the NBA.

C's have made clear that minutes are earned and not given. They've taken Tyler Zeller's starting role away, pulled the plug on David Lee quickly to start this season, elevated Isaiah Thomas to a starting role and brought Marcus Smart back to the bench when they felt it was right for the team. If Young could help the C's and was showing it behind the scenes I'd suspect he'd be given the opportunities he deserves. A year ago I'd give him the benefit of the doubt as a rookie but now in almost a second full season of irrelevancy it ha become hard to. Maybe this just isn't a good fit for him. I just don't know why he doesn't look to shoot, pass, or attack when he gets on the court for the Celtics. You'd think that's what a young player would be striving for when they finally get a chance.

Bill Sy

I agree that he looks hesitant on the floor, but there are few rookies that just take over games. Consider the circumstances. He knows that his playing time is going to be limited. Be too aggressive and he might come off as trying too hard. Be too passive and people question your heart. If he were getting 20+ minutes a night and not producing, I'd agree. Behind the scenes, Ainge and Stevens have been very complimentary of his development and work ethic. The same goes for Tyler Zeller and to a lesser extent, David Lee. Sometimes, it's just about fit and I don't see who Young plays ahead of.

Jeff Clark

Wrapping this up, it is always difficult to make a final definitive judgement with a young player who isn't playing.  You get this chicken or the egg conversation: Are they not playing because they aren't good enough or are they not good enough because they don't play?  Often times it is a mix of both but to me, after 2 seasons, regardless of age, it seems like he should at least be showing signs of life when he does get a chance and I haven't seen it.  I can't see how hard he works in the background but I feel like we've heard whispers of work ethic in the past and it makes me wonder if that's just who he is.

Regardless, I've been disappointed in his development and I'm no longer putting any hope in him to contribute to this team, except in the way of trade filler this offseason.  Again, I've been known to be wrong and there's still a chance he could work out somehow.  There's really little impact to the team at this point in the season and it will get sorted out in the summer.  It just frustrates me that a guy we used a 1st rounder on couldn't step up and help when the team needed his skill-set.

(Note: I didn't use the term "bust" in the conversation with my staff, but despite the harshness of the term, I think it exemplifies what we're talking about here - so I used it in the title and poll below.)



bob



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Post by NYCelt on Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:01 pm

I like the round table comparison for how we do things.  Very much on target with that one, Bob.

So my $.02 on James Young:  Bust

Classic example of a kid who was developing and needed to stay in school another year or two to make further progress.  Depending on what you have read or believe, he either had to leave school or saw the opportunity to declare and went for it.  We were the ones to take the gamble and it just hasn't worked out.  When he does hit the floor he seems lost at both ends.  The D league isn't going to do for him what another year of NCAA would have, he's simply scoring against the weak and overmatched defenses that populate that league.  That's no indicator of success at the next level for him.  His best hope is to bounce around wherever he can and maybe things will click a few years down the road...see Green, Gerald.  We can't wait that long.  Time to move on to the next project.
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Post by kdp59 on Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:04 pm

I was one who thought he was a good pick for us at #17.

I saw him with a ceiling of A. Afflalo. His shooting touch was what seperated him at lower levels.

now I fear his CEILING is Marshon Brooks!!!

OUCH.


unles he has impressed the HELL out of the coahing staff (in practice I would assume), I see no way he is a Celtic next year.

maybe he is still too young, but this league spits out kids who (don't get it) each and every year without fail.

perhaps he doesn'tt have the drive needed to be a NBA player.

or maybe his skills are simply NOT NBA level.



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Post by sinus007 on Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:42 pm

Hi,
I'm in the "bust" camp.
I don't think he will or can do anything of significance on this team. Maybe some other team that gets him via trade or FA will find a niche where he shows up.
Unfortunately, he's not the first, not the last one of Danny & Co's mistakes.

AK
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Post by gyso on Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:03 pm

NYCelt,

I was thinking Gerald Green as well.  Gerald never could match the hype over his athleticism.  Young didn't come here with that tag, his was "great shooter".  I haven't seen it yet.

Avery Bradley was scared of his own shadow during his first year or so.  So many wanted to just dump him, but Doc kept saying that he looked good in practice.  Avery turned out okay, I guess.  Very Happy   I just do not see where anyone from the Celtics coaching staff are speaking up for Young like Doc did for Avery.

If Young is traded, we will have to send along some $$$ so that the receiving team can release him and it won't cost them any salary, just a cap hit.

I think he will have to play overseas in order to get playing time against players that are better than D-Leaguers. He may find his way back to the NBA, just not on our time.

Add me to the group that says: Bust

gyso

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Post by Outside on Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:56 pm

Boston needs an impact player on offense on the wing. Unfortunately, James Young isn't it.
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Post by BaronV on Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:41 pm

I'd have to agree with the bust sentiment. We have a coach who is able to take players considered sub-par on other teams and highlight their strengths / hide their weaknesses to make them play well as a team. He obviously hasn't been able to do that with Young. Maybe he'd catch on better with a tanking team like Philly that could let him learn on the court, but at this rate he doesn't seem like he's going to amount to much in Boston.

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Post by worcester on Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:57 pm

Bust, and I had raved about him after the 2014 Final Four. Let him go Danny.
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Post by mulcogiseng on Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:09 pm

The difference between Young and players like Smart and Bradley is that they had NBA ready defensive skills and he doesn't. He is a shooter who can't hit the shot. He may just be slow to develop, and like others have said, let's hope that he can make the transition but somewhere else. Bust.
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Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:03 pm

Who was that genius who said he could also play PF?
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Post by beat on Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:20 pm

My short answer is BUST, just not a lot players after 2 years even with a change of scenery get remarkably better. I'm sure some do but perhaps the NBA is just a little to quick for him. As others have noted he hasn't had much of a chance and on a team that features so much youth that is playing that says a lot to me about his standing in the pecking order.

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Post by steve3344 on Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:37 pm

Not to rub salt in the wound but how happy would we have been if this guy who went six picks later was ours:

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/picked-23rd-jazz-rodney-hood-proving-steal-182959018--nba.html

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Post by Berlin-T on Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:18 pm

BUST!

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Post by worcester on Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:55 pm

Ouch Steve. That salt does hurt.
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Post by wideclyde on Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:36 am

As I have mentioned previously, we have a Celtics breakfast meeting every Friday morning during the season that is basically a round table discussion on a variety of basketball topics that relate to our Celtics.

We have had almost the exact same James Young discussion on several occasions as was detailed in the original post, and our general thoughts in his almost two year career have markedly turned against him.

At first, we kind of gave him a pass since he was still a teenager and had only played one season of college ball, but now both of these factors have been replaced with thoughts similar to "not getting better at any reasonable clip" and "still totally lost" in just about every game he plays in.

This guy may finally find his way to some NBA success, but it will likely not be in Boston. Of course, his age and his athleticism will be found appealing to another team who will take a chance on him as every coaching staff probably thinks that they have the answer to unlocking his potential. Our group agrees that we would trade him this summer for just about any type of return just to free up a roster space.

I find it quite damning that Cote Clarke has seemingly already gone beyond Young as far as actual court time for the Cs.

I find it hard to label a young man as a BUST, but his very limited improvement (d-league stats do not count) earns him the label of 'disappointing' at best. Although 17th draft picks very often do not become stars in the NBA, he should be further along at this time than he appears to be especially when so many other Cs players in the last two years have improved dramatically under the guidance of Coach Stevens and his great staff.

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Post by dboss on Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:41 pm

Yes he is a bust and should be dispatched before next season even if we have to eat the contract.

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Post by swish on Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:42 pm

Hes still very young so I'll wait another 3 years or so before passing judgement. I've been wrong so many times on player talent evaluation over the years that I've come to except the fact that I am an amateur trying to predict the future in a field where even the pros mess up quite frequently.

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Post by dboss on Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:56 am

Swish

My position on Young has not changed. He has no handle so his offense from a wing position is limited. Plus he is not shooting well. His handle is the worst we have seen from any guard the Celtics have drafted in....years

He's a stocking stuffer that will fill in nicely for a trade.

Today he is a bust because whenever he has a chance to play...he stinks. I see no reason to prolong a change to his roster spot.

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