Dragon Bender Don't believe The Hype

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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 2:27 pm

I  read a article on NESN that discussed the draft and Dragon Bender as a possible pick.  For those interested fans here is the link;

http://nesn.com/2016/05/nba-draft-rumors-celtics-saw-dragan-bender-play-live-in-israel-love-him/

Here is a a quote from that article,

"IF Boston decides to pick a big man, Bender might be its best option, although he’s only 18 and has limited experience. He only averaged 13.7 points in in 26 games for Maccabi Tel Aviv during the 2015-16 Israel Super Basketball League, and his playing time decreased even more for the Euroleague and Eurocup, according to Basketball.RealGM.com. But it’s hard to argue with his potential at 7-foot-1, 225 pounds."

The article states that he averaged 13.7 PPG in 26 games.  I thought ok let me check this out so I went to the actual team website to check out his stats,  There are several leagues that he played in but I could not find one that supports the articles contention that he averaged 13.7 PPG.  I did see a reference to him scoring 137 points total (see the   Israel League stats) You can check this out for yourself at the link below

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2016/05/nba-draft-rumors-celtics-saw-dragan-bender-play-live-in-israel-love-him/

I say do not believe the hype.

The truth is that this skinny 18 year old kid has a combined average of 4.3 PPG and 2.3 rebounds

http://maccabi.co.il/Player.asp?PlayerID=864&PlayerUID=0&cYear=2016&cType=0&lang=en#STATS

The notion that he should be ranked as a top potential draft pick blows my mind.  The idea that the Boston Celtics would use the 3rd pick in this year's NBA draft on him makes me sick in the stomach.

Why all the hype?  Why the inaccurate reporting?

Don't get bamboozled.  

dboss


Last edited by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by bobheckler on Sun May 22, 2016 2:31 pm

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/241972/scout-dragan-bender-more-advanced-at-18-than-porzingis



Scout: Dragan Bender More Advanced At 18 Than Porzingis


MAY 20, 2016 11:52 AM


Dragan Bender probably has the best shot of pulling a draft upset and being selected ahead of either Ben Simmons or Brandon Ingram.

Bender has a recent small sample size with Maccabi Tel Aviv, but he's younger than most freshman and has been playing against players more than a decade older than him.

"Dragan is more advanced at his age than Kristaps Porzingis was when he was 18," a longtime NBA scout said. "Dragan has great length, and he can block shots. He can run the floor, and his ability to finish at the rim is exceptional. His shot is getting better all the time. On defense, he has the ability to guard the 4 or the 5. He needs to gain weight and strength, but his potential is jaw-dropping."

"Top players from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina play basketball to express beauty," said Maurizio Balducci, Bender's Italy-based agent, who is also watching the practice. "This is how [the late] Drazen Petrovic played and Toni Kukoc played. Dragan is very much from this culture. And dunking in a layup line when you are 7'1" is not an expression of beauty."



bob


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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 2:48 pm

Bob

Hype, Hype and more hype

The Celtics have enough picks to take a flyer on a lot of players but not with the #3 pick.

The 3rd pick if used must bring in a player that can play from day one and also fill a need on this team.

Bender cannot possibly be considered as that guy. There are way too many questions yet to be answered. The sample size is so small that it cannot and should not be used as a barometer to project the upside of a player. Keep in mind that we are not talking about a mid or late round pick. We are talking about the 3rd pick in the draft.

The NESN article is repugnant because it is inaccurate.

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Post by swish on Sun May 22, 2016 3:18 pm

Always interesting to follow the draft Guru's on this board and their opinions about the up coming draft. In a month we'll see how the pros rate the prospects. And in a few years the final grades can be handed out. For me its a "no touchem" subject. It was tough enough in the earlier generations when a player could be judged off 4 years of college ball - Now you have to predict the future based on a teenagers 4 years of high school and as little as 1 year of college. And there's so much at stake!


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Post by pete on Sun May 22, 2016 4:03 pm

Dare I say Fab Melo?
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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 4:13 pm

swish wrote:Always interesting to follow the draft Guru's on this board and their opinions about the up coming draft.  In a month we'll see how the pros rate the prospects. And in a few years the final grades can be handed out. For me its a "no touchem" subject. It was tough enough in the earlier generations when a player could be judged off 4 years of college ball -  Now you have to predict the future based on a teenagers 4 years of high school and as little as 1 year of college.  And there's so much at stake!


 swish

Swish

There are no draft guru's on this board.  What you have on this board is a collections of very knowledgeable basketball fans who who want the Celtics to win more championships.  So many variable to consider and so many opinions.  We may also want to consider that the Pros make a lot of mistakes.  Like posting totally inaccurate stats.  Some pro got paid for that.  

Not all picks take 4 years to get the final grade.

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Post by swish on Sun May 22, 2016 6:52 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:Always interesting to follow the draft Guru's on this board and their opinions about the up coming draft.  In a month we'll see how the pros rate the prospects. And in a few years the final grades can be handed out. For me its a "no touchem" subject. It was tough enough in the earlier generations when a player could be judged off 4 years of college ball -  Now you have to predict the future based on a teenagers 4 years of high school and as little as 1 year of college.  And there's so much at stake!


 swish

Swish

There are no draft guru's on this board.  What you have on this board is a collections of very knowledgeable basketball fans who who want the Celtics to win more championships.  So many variable to consider and so many opinions.  We may also want to consider that the Pros make a lot of mistakes.  Like posting totally inaccurate stats.  Some pro got paid for that.  

Not all picks take 4 years to get the final grade.

dboss

dboss

I wonder how many very knowledgeable basketball FANS have the same level of credentials and up close information that an nba managerial staff has available. And even than, like you say, the general managers of the league still get it wrong sometimes. Even after 68 years of Celtic basketball behind me I'll bow to the combined wisdom of each of the NBA staffs. I don't have the tools to work with that they do. A few years down the road I might take a shot at criticizing some picks. - but that's ok because my hind sight vision is 20/20.

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Post by wideclyde on Sun May 22, 2016 8:33 pm

For me there is only one guy who matters when it comes to drafting for the Cs and that is Danny Ainge. All of the rest of us are just guessers.

It is completely his job to gather as much information on all of these young guys every year and he does a pretty good job of finding talent for the Cs.  Yes, he has, like all other NBA executives, made some draft mistakes over the years, but I still believe in him completely.  He is part of us and we are part of him.

I am sure that he has seen Bender play and probably will see him work out for the Cs at some time before the draft to even better assess this kid's value to the team.  He will also look to see what is out there for a trade of the third pick if he thinks that he can move the team forward better and faster by going that route.

His drafting of Bender or trading that pick will later tell us what he thinks of Bender as a potential NBA player.  No need to worry any about the third pick at this time.

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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 8:45 pm

As fans we are not privy to a lot when it comes to players.

What we do have is an understanding of the game of basketball with a significant historical perspective.

We debate our perspectives based on available information.  Sometimes we get it wrong and sometimes we get it right just like the folks who get paid to do this.

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Post by bobheckler on Sun May 22, 2016 9:00 pm

wideclyde wrote:For me there is only one guy who matters when it comes to drafting for the Cs and that is Danny Ainge.  All of the rest of us are just guessers.

It is completely his job to gather as much information on all of these young guys every year and he does a pretty good job of finding talent for the Cs.  Yes, he has, like all other NBA executives, made some draft mistakes over the years, but I still believe in him completely.  He is part of us and we are part of him.

I am sure that he has seen Bender play and probably will see him work out for the Cs at some time before the draft to even better assess this kid's value to the team.  He will also look to see what is out there for a trade of the third pick if he thinks that he can move the team forward better and faster by going that route.

His drafting of Bender or trading that pick will later tell us what he thinks of Bender as a potential NBA player.  No need to worry any about the third pick at this time.


Clyde,

Not only has he, or at least Austin, probably gone to Israel to see him (Mitch Kupchak has, why wouldn't Danny?) he probably has film of every minute of every game he has played in, even if we don't.  We also have a Director of International Scouting based in Europe who has probably seen him in Israel and when Maccabi-Tel Aviv played road games in Europe.

If the #3 pick is the biggie then it is also probably also the one to worry about the least because that's the pick they will spend the most time researching, working out and thinking/discussing.


bob


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Post by swish on Sun May 22, 2016 9:13 pm

bobheckler wrote:
wideclyde wrote:For me there is only one guy who matters when it comes to drafting for the Cs and that is Danny Ainge.  All of the rest of us are just guessers.

It is completely his job to gather as much information on all of these young guys every year and he does a pretty good job of finding talent for the Cs.  Yes, he has, like all other NBA executives, made some draft mistakes over the years, but I still believe in him completely.  He is part of us and we are part of him.

I am sure that he has seen Bender play and probably will see him work out for the Cs at some time before the draft to even better assess this kid's value to the team.  He will also look to see what is out there for a trade of the third pick if he thinks that he can move the team forward better and faster by going that route.

His drafting of Bender or trading that pick will later tell us what he thinks of Bender as a potential NBA player.  No need to worry any about the third pick at this time.


Clyde,

Not only has he, or at least Austin, probably gone to Israel to see him (Mitch Kupchak has, why wouldn't Danny?) he probably has film of every minute of every game he has played in, even if we don't.  We also have a Director of International Scouting based in Europe who has probably seen him in Israel and when Maccabi-Tel Aviv played road games in Europe.

If the #3 pick is the biggie then it is also probably also the one to worry about the least because that's the pick they will spend the most time researching, working out and thinking/discussing.


bob


.

bob

I'm part of the think tank. I got my invite to the below POW-WOW last week.

"If the #3 pick is the biggie then it is also probably also the one to worry about the least because that's the pick they will spend the most time researching, working out and thinking/discussing."

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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 9:22 pm

I find it interesting that no one has made any comments regarding the main point that I made.  This is about hyping a player and the inaccuracies posted by the PA ID media

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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 9:25 pm

There is a lot more at stake if you make a mistake at #3.

Thus there should be more to worry about not less.


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Post by swish on Sun May 22, 2016 9:40 pm

dboss wrote:I find it interesting that no one has made any comments regarding the main point that I made.  This is about hyping a player and the inaccuracies posted by the PA ID media

Dboss

That the press could get it wrong! Really - what a surprise.


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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 10:20 pm

It is not just about posting stats that are significantly wrong.  It is about how a player is hyped even though there is little evidence to support the hype.  

Some fans do not care about these things. Some fans prefer to take the words of wisdom from the experts.  However a level of skepticism should always be raised when the hype about a player is not supported by any meaningful evidence
.
In absence of that evidence it is reasonable to conclude that a player like Bender is being overhyped

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Post by swish on Sun May 22, 2016 10:31 pm

dboss wrote:It is not just about posting stats that are significantly wrong.  It is about how a player is hyped even though there is little evidence to support the hype.  

Some fans do not care about these things. Some fans prefer to take the words of wisdom from the experts.  However a level of skepticism should always be raised when the hype about a player is not supported by any meaningful evidence
.
In absence of that evidence it is reasonable to conclude that a player like Bender is being overhyped

Dboss


And what is the consensus of the leagues general managers ?


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Post by dboss on Sun May 22, 2016 11:01 pm

Swish

I have no idea what the consensus is among the GM'S.  And I do not really care about what they think.  I care about what you think as well as all board members.

I posted this thread because I believe that Bender is being overhyped.  I used the same criteria that I used for every player that is of interest to me.

The standard however should be much higher for a top 10 projected pick.

I have read a lot of opinions with few facts that support those opinions

So I posted his meaningless stats and what I get back in return is sarcasm and a bag of horse manure.

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Post by swish on Sun May 22, 2016 11:46 pm

dboss wrote:Swish

I have no idea what the consensus is among the GM'S.  And I do not really care about what they think.  I care about what you think as well as all board members.

I posted this thread because I believe that Bender is being overhyped.  I used the same criteria that I used for every player that is of interest to me.

The standard however should be much higher for a top 10 projected pick.

I have read a lot of opinions with few facts that support those opinions

So I posted his meaningless stats and what I get back in return is sarcasm and a bag of horse manure.

Dboss


Count me out of this this discussion. Its time to move on.

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Post by worcester on Mon May 23, 2016 10:44 am

Bob, With the advances in hormone therapy and transgender plastic surgery, I have the potential of looking like a young Brigitte Bardot

https://www.google.com/search?q=brigitte+bardot&biw=1536&bih=726&tbm=isch&imgil=sJgWvRvlgwE_wM%253A%253BMw_EuGW9khABGM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.theguardian.com%25252Ffilm%25252F2014%25252Fsep%25252F20%25252Fbrigitte-bardot-at-80-still-outrageous-outspoken&source=iu&pf=m&fir=sJgWvRvlgwE_wM%253A%252CMw_EuGW9khABGM%252C_&usg=__kapo9X6ZdhD-6Kp0ihC_n5uG_H8%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiQp6jft_DMAhUHGR4KHc7tDgoQyjcIjQE&ei=aBdDV5DTDYeyeM7bu1A#imgrc=gf8yJ4V28N3HcM%3A

(for those in the younger set, think of Blake Lively).

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRY8Ox8rvEzshiAy5eCjUHtHiFoxHCJiXoMf2i5GbulBm9ojxrk

I know we're going on a long hike together, but don't get your hopes up. Ditto for Dragan Bender. Potential is highly overrated.
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Post by bobheckler on Mon May 23, 2016 11:52 am

worcester wrote:Bob, With the advances in hormone therapy and transgender plastic surgery, I have the potential of looking like a young Brigitte Bardot

https://www.google.com/search?q=brigitte+bardot&biw=1536&bih=726&tbm=isch&imgil=sJgWvRvlgwE_wM%253A%253BMw_EuGW9khABGM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.theguardian.com%25252Ffilm%25252F2014%25252Fsep%25252F20%25252Fbrigitte-bardot-at-80-still-outrageous-outspoken&source=iu&pf=m&fir=sJgWvRvlgwE_wM%253A%252CMw_EuGW9khABGM%252C_&usg=__kapo9X6ZdhD-6Kp0ihC_n5uG_H8%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiQp6jft_DMAhUHGR4KHc7tDgoQyjcIjQE&ei=aBdDV5DTDYeyeM7bu1A#imgrc=gf8yJ4V28N3HcM%3A

(for those in the younger set, think of Blake Lively).

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRY8Ox8rvEzshiAy5eCjUHtHiFoxHCJiXoMf2i5GbulBm9ojxrk

I know we're going on a long hike together, but don't get your hopes up. Ditto for Dragan Bender. Potential is highly overrated.


worcester,

If your surgery made you look like a young Brigitte Bardot it wouldn't be my hopes that would be getting up.


bob


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Post by worcester on Mon May 23, 2016 12:08 pm

LOL !!!
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Post by dboss on Mon May 23, 2016 1:16 pm

worcester wrote:Bob, With the advances in hormone therapy and transgender plastic surgery, I have the potential of looking like a young Brigitte Bardot

https://www.google.com/search?q=brigitte+bardot&biw=1536&bih=726&tbm=isch&imgil=sJgWvRvlgwE_wM%253A%253BMw_EuGW9khABGM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.theguardian.com%25252Ffilm%25252F2014%25252Fsep%25252F20%25252Fbrigitte-bardot-at-80-still-outrageous-outspoken&source=iu&pf=m&fir=sJgWvRvlgwE_wM%253A%252CMw_EuGW9khABGM%252C_&usg=__kapo9X6ZdhD-6Kp0ihC_n5uG_H8%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiQp6jft_DMAhUHGR4KHc7tDgoQyjcIjQE&ei=aBdDV5DTDYeyeM7bu1A#imgrc=gf8yJ4V28N3HcM%3A

(for those in the younger set, think of Blake Lively).

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRY8Ox8rvEzshiAy5eCjUHtHiFoxHCJiXoMf2i5GbulBm9ojxrk

I know we're going on a long hike together, but don't get your hopes up. Ditto for Dragan Bender. Potential is highly overrated.

Worcester

you sure know how to break up the ice..

very funny!

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Post by arambone on Mon May 23, 2016 1:22 pm

That Bender stat of 13 points comes from his per 36 minutes stat, or rather, his per 3 games scoring average, lol.

Rarely is being a white Euro prospect an advantage, but it sure is when you're 7'1" and coming out the year after Porzingis.

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Post by Ram on Mon May 23, 2016 2:16 pm

dboss wrote:It is not just about posting stats that are significantly wrong.  It is about how a player is hyped even though there is little evidence to support the hype.  

Some fans do not care about these things. Some fans prefer to take the words of wisdom from the experts.  However a level of skepticism should always be raised when the hype about a player is not supported by any meaningful evidence
.
In absence of that evidence it is reasonable to conclude that a player like Bender is being overhyped

Dboss

That someone being paid to write an article would blow it that badly when researching his stats is pathetic.

Does it mean Bender is overhyped? Possibly. But while I don't want the Celtics to take him, I also think that scouts who hype him are not morons and they see all the things in him that could make him a superstar. It is just about his desire to becomes such a player, improving his body and finding the right culture and team willing to wait 2-3 years on him to become that.

Darko folded under the pressure of being picked #2. Bargnani was ok for a few years but was overall a pretty big bust. I tend to think it is 50-50 with these guys when they are drafted before turning 21-22 or spending 1-2 seasons as legit starters in the toughest Euro leagues. 

If Bender is a European who has even just a 50% chance of turning into a Kukoc, Porzingis or Detlef Schrempf type NBA player then he is worth being hyped up and discussed as a top 5 prospect. But there is also a 50% chance he turns into a bust and for that reason I don't want the Celtics to take him.
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Post by dboss on Mon May 23, 2016 2:48 pm

Ram wrote:
dboss wrote:It is not just about posting stats that are significantly wrong.  It is about how a player is hyped even though there is little evidence to support the hype.  

Some fans do not care about these things. Some fans prefer to take the words of wisdom from the experts.  However a level of skepticism should always be raised when the hype about a player is not supported by any meaningful evidence
.
In absence of that evidence it is reasonable to conclude that a player like Bender is being overhyped

Dboss

That someone being paid to write an article would blow it that badly when researching his stats is pathetic.

Does it mean Bender is overhyped? Possibly. But while I don't want the Celtics to take him, I also think that scouts who hype him are not morons and they see all the things in him that could make him a superstar. It is just about his desire to becomes such a player, improving his body and finding the right culture and team willing to wait 2-3 years on him to become that.

Darko folded under the pressure of being picked #2. Bargnani was ok for a few years but was overall a pretty big bust. I tend to think it is 50-50 with these guys when they are drafted before turning 21-22 or spending 1-2 seasons as legit starters in the toughest Euro leagues. 

If Bender is a European who has even just a 50% chance of turning into a Kukoc, Porzingis or Detlef Schrempf type NBA player then he is worth being hyped up and discussed as a top 5 prospect. But there is also a 50% chance he turns into a bust and for that reason I don't want the Celtics to take him.

Ram

Yep...every year we see players get hyped. For years now you see the videos and mostly dunks.  And you think to yourself..wow this kid has some big time hops but then he gets to the NBA and you realize that the kid does not know how to play basketball.

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