Nate 'Tiny' Archibald: 'I wished I had 10 basketballs' on 1980-81 Celtics

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Post by swish Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:51 pm

jrleftfoot wrote:I just don`t think there is an argument to be had here. "Progress" is being made in almost every realm of human endeavor over the course of time. Everything you said is demonstrably true. I can`t speak for Ram , but I gathered that he was using a different yardstick . I suppose the countervailing argument , which I don`y particularly care to make , would be that one should be judged by how one dominated ones peers and that , assuming exponential dominance , one might  posit that , given the advances in nutrition , training , etc. , the oldtimers who were transcendent in their eras would be so today. I , for instance, choose to believe, and I use the word choose advisedly, that Babe Ruth`s achievements vis a vis his peers
are far more impressive than those of Barry Bonds, but there is no way of proving or disproving that. That`s why I mentioned Ruth and Josh Gibson earlier. At least they played during the same era, but since the competetion was different we can`t really compare them either. Opinions are , by their very nature subjective. So, in my opinion, is virtually everything else in life. I hope this response is satisfactory , because it is absolutely everything I have to say about the matter. I sort of intruded in ya`lls argument , but this is my 2 cents

You intrude - HELL NO - basketball generational comparisons happens to be my favorite retirement hobby. Any time you want to dig deeper into this sort of historical aspect of the sport ring me up. I've spent hours on track & field and pro football as well since the 3 sports have much in common. I'm sure that because of your sports enthusiasm you have much to offer in this type of discussion.

swish

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Post by jrleftfoot Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:11 am

swish wrote:
jrleftfoot wrote:I just don`t think there is an argument to be had here. "Progress" is being made in almost every realm of human endeavor over the course of time. Everything you said is demonstrably true. I can`t speak for Ram , but I gathered that he was using a different yardstick . I suppose the countervailing argument , which I don`y particularly care to make , would be that one should be judged by how one dominated ones peers and that , assuming exponential dominance , one might  posit that , given the advances in nutrition , training , etc. , the oldtimers who were transcendent in their eras would be so today. I , for instance, choose to believe, and I use the word choose advisedly, that Babe Ruth`s achievements vis a vis his peers
are far more impressive than those of Barry Bonds, but there is no way of proving or disproving that. That`s why I mentioned Ruth and Josh Gibson earlier. At least they played during the same era, but since the competetion was different we can`t really compare them either. Opinions are , by their very nature subjective. So, in my opinion, is virtually everything else in life. I hope this response is satisfactory , because it is absolutely everything I have to say about the matter. I sort of intruded in ya`lls argument , but this is my 2 cents

You intrude - HELL NO -  basketball generational comparisons happens to be my favorite retirement hobby. Any time you want to dig deeper into this sort of historical aspect of the sport ring me up. I've spent hours on track & field and pro football as well since the 3 sports have much in common. I'm sure that because of your sports enthusiasm you have much to offer in this type of discussion.

  swish

Thanks, Swish.. Fun talking to you guys .I`ve been in the weeds for a while. Cowens, I had a sneaking suspicion you might like that shot of the redheaded lefty.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:37 am

I actually loved him on the other end even more jr, he could play in any era, relentless defender and rebounder.

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Post by NYCelt Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:42 am

jrleftfoot wrote:I just don`t think there is an argument to be had here. "Progress" is being made in almost every realm of human endeavor over the course of time. Everything you said is demonstrably true. I can`t speak for Ram , but I gathered that he was using a different yardstick . I suppose the countervailing argument , which I don`y particularly care to make , would be that one should be judged by how one dominated ones peers and that , assuming exponential dominance , one might  posit that , given the advances in nutrition , training , etc. , the oldtimers who were transcendent in their eras would be so today. I , for instance, choose to believe, and I use the word choose advisedly, that Babe Ruth`s achievements vis a vis his peers
are far more impressive than those of Barry Bonds, but there is no way of proving or disproving that. That`s why I mentioned Ruth and Josh Gibson earlier. At least they played during the same era, but since the competetion was different we can`t really compare them either. Opinions are , by their very nature subjective. So, in my opinion, is virtually everything else in life. I hope this response is satisfactory , because it is absolutely everything I have to say about the matter. I sort of intruded in ya`lls argument , but this is my 2 cents

jr,

Interesting and well thought out take on the comparison of players between eras. It's not only a difficult comparison, but completely inevitable and thoroughly enjoyable. 'Who was better' may be impossible to prove, but usually turns out to be the thinking man's sports argument.

I've especially enjoyed Swish's debates on this topic over the years (on basketball and a few comments I recall on baseball). I have to give particular credibility to his arguments when he is of age to have enjoyed several eras, yet has never shown favoritism of one over another.

Regards
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Post by jrleftfoot Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:20 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:I actually loved him on the other end even more jr, he could play in any era, relentless defender and rebounder.

          Agreed. My favorite memory of him is sprawling on the floor scrambling after a loose ball.
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Post by Ram Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:47 pm

Yeah it looks like a case of different criteria for sure. I agreed with swish that I would take Tiny, even at 31-32 years old, for any one roster or one season over Cousy. 

Now if he were to swap Cousy and Tiny on the below hypothetical list of all-time Celtic greats, I would take issue with that. My Top 20 list:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Havlicek
4. Sam Jones
5. Pierce
6. Cowens
7. Cousy
8. McHale
9. JoJo White
10. Parish
11. Heihnson
12. DJ
13. Maxwell
14. Tiny
15. Garnett
16. K.C. Jones
17. Silas
18. Antoine
19. Reggie Lewis
20. Bill Sharman

Honorable Mention: Ainge, Ray Allen, Rondo, Ramsey, Nelson, Charlie Scott, Satch and MacCauly
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Post by jrleftfoot Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:00 pm

Ram wrote:Yeah it looks like a case of different criteria for sure. I agreed with swish that I would take Tiny, even at 31-32 years old, for any one roster or one season over Cousy. 

Now if he were to swap Cousy and Tiny on the below hypothetical list of all-time Celtic greats, I would take issue with that. My Top 20 list:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Havlicek
4. Sam Jones
5. Pierce
6. Cowens
7. Cousy
8. McHale
9. JoJo White
10. Parish
11. Heihnson
12. DJ
13. Maxwell
14. Tiny
15. Garnett
16. K.C. Jones
17. Silas
18. Antoine
19. Reggie Lewis
20. Bill Sharman

Honorable Mention: Ainge, Ray Allen, Rondo, Ramsey, Nelson, Charlie Scott, Satch and MacCauly
     woqw. that`s a can of worms. bom
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Post by Ram Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:58 pm

jrleftfoot wrote:
Ram wrote:Yeah it looks like a case of different criteria for sure. I agreed with swish that I would take Tiny, even at 31-32 years old, for any one roster or one season over Cousy. 

Now if he were to swap Cousy and Tiny on the below hypothetical list of all-time Celtic greats, I would take issue with that. My Top 20 list:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Havlicek
4. Sam Jones
5. Pierce
6. Cowens
7. Cousy
8. McHale
9. JoJo White
10. Parish
11. Heihnson
12. DJ
13. Maxwell
14. Tiny
15. Garnett
16. K.C. Jones
17. Silas
18. Antoine
19. Reggie Lewis
20. Bill Sharman

Honorable Mention: Ainge, Ray Allen, Rondo, Ramsey, Nelson, Charlie Scott, Satch and MacCauly
     woqw. that`s a can of worms. bom

Sure is. You can debate guys across 3-4 spots I'm sure. Maybe even someone like Sharman could be 4-5 spots higher, or you could debate Tiny vs. DJ, but not Tiny over Cousy all-time Celtics.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:16 am

I would agree that because of all his accomplishments and all he did during HIS era, Cousy would have to rank ahead of Tiny, you can only be judged by what is in front of you at the time. However swish makes compelling points that are also correct. I saw the best of Walt Frazier and Jerry Sloan, both great and the best defensive guards of their era, then go look at you tube video of Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart....no comparison, those old timers were great and deserve respect, but the top guys like AB and Smart today are just so much better defensively, its so obvious.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:36 am

Ram wrote:Yeah it looks like a case of different criteria for sure. I agreed with swish that I would take Tiny, even at 31-32 years old, for any one roster or one season over Cousy. 

Now if he were to swap Cousy and Tiny on the below hypothetical list of all-time Celtic greats, I would take issue with that. My Top 20 list:

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Havlicek
4. Sam Jones
5. Pierce
6. Cowens
7. Cousy
8. McHale
9. JoJo White
10. Parish
11. Heihnson
12. DJ
13. Maxwell
14. Tiny
15. Garnett
16. K.C. Jones
17. Silas
18. Antoine
19. Reggie Lewis
20. Bill Sharman

Honorable Mention: Ainge, Ray Allen, Rondo, Ramsey, Nelson, Charlie Scott, Satch and MacCauly



I would change Sam Jones position with Cousy's , making Cousy 4th and Sam Jones 7th. Cousy won an MVP and when he retired was the all time assists leader.

then we could have a game between 1-5 vs 5-10, with one sub.

Russell Parish
Bird Cowens
Pierce McHale
Havlicek Jones
Cousy White

sub
KG Reggie Lewis

then I would start Reggie on Pierce and have McHale go the bench as the 6th man, even though McHale is the greater Celtic. Cowens and McHale would take turns covering Larry Bird and be the best defensive twosome he ever faced.


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Post by Ram Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:11 pm

That's fun
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Post by jrleftfoot Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:00 pm

I was in NYC, visiting a friend during classic series with 6ERS. Game was broadcast on time delay and we went over to his friend`s apt. to watch it. 7TH game. Guy blurted out that Celtics had won.I was happy, but I wanted to kill him----Bird and Magic revitaized the league and, after that year , all the playoffs, the conference finals anyway, were live.
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:30 pm

Boy, I would love to have seen the posts from Sam on this subject!!!!
Ever protective of the l960 era Celtics, I will side with what I know Sam would have picked. Cousy was the greatest all time Celtic point guard. Tiny came at a time when the team just needed a player of his skill set. He was a terrific point guard.

However, I will still side with Cousy, he was one heck of a point guard.
My problem is that Tiny was not here long enough to be an All Time Greatest Celtic point guard. It is all a matter of opinion, that's the way most comparisions are
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Post by Ram Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:57 am

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Boy, I would love to have seen the posts from Sam on this subject!!!!
Ever protective of the l960 era Celtics, I will side with what I know Sam would have picked.  Cousy was the greatest all time Celtic point guard. Tiny came at a time when the team just needed a player of his skill set. He was a terrific point guard.

However, I will still side with Cousy, he was one heck of a point guard.
My problem is that Tiny was not here long enough to be an All Time Greatest Celtic point guard. It is all a matter of opinion, that's the way most comparisions are

Yup, Tiny was just here for 5 years, which is the main reason you cannot put him ahead of Cousy. DJ was here for 7 years and Rondo was here for 8.5 and nobody is putting them ahead of Couz.
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Post by swish Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:52 am

I can, and do, select Tiny over Cousy simply because my opinion is based on a different criterion. Simply put - I'll take Tiny's career skill level (including only 5 years with the Celts) over Cousy's 13 years and 6 rings. Obviously others have a different criterion. To each his own.

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Post by Ram Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:05 am

swish wrote:I can, and do, select Tiny over Cousy simply because my opinion is based on a different criterion. Simply put - I'll take Tiny's career skill level (including only 5 years with the Celts) over Cousy's 13 years and 6 rings. Obviously others have a different criterion. To each his own.

 swish

Why are you still repeating this? 

Your criterion for making a personal favorite player an all-time Celtic is fine when talking about taking his 2-3 best seasons here and having that player on a roster of all-time talent or for a "I'd take 1981 Tiny as my PG for any single season" type argument. 

It is flawed and wrong if you try to put Tiny above Cousy on an all-time greatest CELTICS list based on CAREER accomplishments in Celtic Green (not on other teams) just like it would be wrong to place KG over Cowens. 

I'm not sure what you are still trying to defend here, as many here including myself have said you can do an all-time talent TEAM and an all-time greats LIST separate from each other. If you try to put someone's 5 years 13.3p, 7.8a, 3 AS games and 1 title over a guy with 13 years, 18.4p, 7.5a, an MVP, 6 titles, 13 AS games and 8x leading the league in assists then you are simply wrong, regardless of the era played in, no two ways about it.
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Post by Ram Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:08 am

Based on your criterion then KG is a better all-time Celtic than Cowens or Parish and Ray Allen a better Celtic than Danny Ainge or Bill Sharman?
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Post by swish Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:40 am

Ram wrote:
swish wrote:I can, and do, select Tiny over Cousy simply because my opinion is based on a different criterion. Simply put - I'll take Tiny's career skill level (including only 5 years with the Celts) over Cousy's 13 years and 6 rings. Obviously others have a different criterion. To each his own.

 swish

Why are you still repeating this? 

Your criterion for making a personal favorite player an all-time Celtic is fine when talking about taking his 2-3 best seasons here and having that player on a roster of all-time talent or for a "I'd take 1981 Tiny as my PG for any single season" type argument. 

It is flawed and wrong if you try to put Tiny above Cousy on an all-time greatest CELTICS list based on CAREER accomplishments in Celtic Green (not on other teams) just like it would be wrong to place KG over Cowens. 

I'm not sure what you are still trying to defend here, as many here including myself have said you can do an all-time talent TEAM and an all-time greats LIST separate from each other. If you try to put someone's 5 years 13.3p, 7.8a, 3 AS games and 1 title over a guy with 13 years, 18.4p, 7.5a, an MVP, 6 titles, 13 AS games and 8x leading the league in assists then you are simply wrong, regardless of the era played in, no two ways about it.

Ram

FOR THE FINAL TIME - I CHOSE TINY BECAUSE I CONSIDER HIM TO BE THE BETTER PLAYER. I doubt that I can make my feelings any clearer, so any further attempt on your part to convert me over to your point of view, will be a waste of time on your part.

swish

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Post by Ram Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:17 pm

swish wrote:
Ram

  FOR THE FINAL TIME - I CHOSE TINY BECAUSE I CONSIDER HIM TO BE THE BETTER PLAYER. I doubt that I can make my feelings any clearer, so any further attempt on your part to convert me over to your point of view, will be a waste of time on your part.

 swish

Swish, 

I'm not trying to convert you to some newfangled criterion of how you make an all-time greats list, I am just informing you of the existing criteria for such lists. 

Players who spend 5 years on a team do not get vaulted over players with 13 years on a team when it comes to an ALL-TIME GREATEST CELTICS list. This is especially true when the career stats of the 13 year player are better than the 5 year stats of the other player AND one was an MVP who holds a 6:1 title advantage and a 13:3 all-star advantage.

Sorry, you can howl at the wind all you want, Nate Archibald is NOT a greater all-time Celtic than Bob Cousy, heck he might not even be better than the PG who replaced him and only spent 7 years in green in Dennis Johnson. 

Now if you think you are still arguing with me over who had more TALENT and who would be better for a one time roster I'm not denying Tiny at age 31-32 would be better than Cousy at any point in his career.
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:34 pm

Bob H where are you on this topic?????????????????????

Gyso??? Beat????NYCelt???Pete???? Come on, let me hear from you!!!!

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Post by Ram Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:57 pm

Swish, 

During the 3 year run from 1979-1982 where the Celtics finished 1st in the Atlantic Division with 61-63 wins all 3 years, won a title in '81 and lost twice in the ECF to the Sixers, these were Tiny's playoff averages over those 3 postseasons in 34 games:


36.4 mins, 14 pts, 6.7 asts, 1.6 rebs, 0.8 assists, 47% FG's and 84.8% FT's

He then was injured 1 minute into game 3 of the 1982 ECF that ended up being a game 7 loss at home to the 6ers (he was 4 months shy of his 34th birthday, those things happen at that age). If he was never hurt who knows what would have happened that year. Same with Perk in '10, Russ in '58 and Havlicek in '73. Probably would be 2-3 more banners up there. 

During a 3 year run from 1984-1986 that featured 62-67 wins, two titles and one loss in a game 6 to LA these were Dennis Johnson's playoff numbers:

38.9 mins, 16.7 pts, 5.7 asts, 3.9 rebs, 1.6 steals, 44% FG's and 84.2 FT's 

That run ended 3 months before DJ's 32nd bday, so he was 2 years younger than Tiny during it. 

They had very similar stats. Although Tiny was the better shooter, DJ was more productive across the stats sheet AND brought elite defense on Magic (Boston was 1-1 vs. LA in this stretch) while Tiny brought average defense and was basically the equal of Mo Cheeks in 1980 and Andrew Toney in 1981 before being hurt in 1982.  Boston was unable to repeat and was 1-2 vs. Philly in this stretch. 

Bird called DJ the most clutch player and best teammate he ever played with. 

The 1986 C's were obviously the best team of the 6 being mentioned, they had Walton over Max and were a top 5 team all-time. The 1980 C's with Cowens instead of Parish/McHale were the least talented. But the other four team were equally talented (in my opinion) and while they both won a title, it was DJ and KC Jones over Tiny and Fitch that made the later two better. 

I'm just mentioning stats that show Tiny wasn't even better than DJ during the best 3 year playoff run each had in green. I don't even include Tiny's painfully bad playoff #'s of 1983 vs. DJ's solid 1987 playoffs that included 'the steal" vs. Detroit. 

It seems like a great argument can be made for third best PG in Celtics history between DJ and Tiny (JoJo White being #2). But ZERO argument can be made for Tiny to be a better CELTIC (not NBA player, CELTIC) than Bob Cousy.
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Post by jrleftfoot Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:17 pm

The number of times one person can attempt to convince another person they are wrong is , statistically, infinite. It is seldom productive, however. Actually, it may just seem to be infinite. Arrow Quinn Buckner was the 34th best Celtic point guard and I defy anyone to prove different. No Just kidding, guys. As Cousy once said of Sherman Douglas; " where are the skills?"
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Post by NYCelt Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:27 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Bob H where are you on this topic?????????????????????

Gyso??? Beat????NYCelt???Pete????  Come on, let me hear from you!!!!


NYCelt wrote:
jrleftfoot wrote:I just don`t think there is an argument to be had here. "Progress" is being made in almost every realm of human endeavor over the course of time. Everything you said is demonstrably true. I can`t speak for Ram , but I gathered that he was using a different yardstick . I suppose the countervailing argument , which I don`y particularly care to make , would be that one should be judged by how one dominated ones peers and that , assuming exponential dominance , one might  posit that , given the advances in nutrition , training , etc. , the oldtimers who were transcendent in their eras would be so today. I , for instance, choose to believe, and I use the word choose advisedly, that Babe Ruth`s achievements vis a vis his peers
are far more impressive than those of Barry Bonds, but there is no way of proving or disproving that. That`s why I mentioned Ruth and Josh Gibson earlier. At least they played during the same era, but since the competetion was different we can`t really compare them either. Opinions are , by their very nature subjective. So, in my opinion, is virtually everything else in life. I hope this response is satisfactory , because it is absolutely everything I have to say about the matter. I sort of intruded in ya`lls argument , but this is my 2 cents

jr,

Interesting and well thought out take on the comparison of players between eras.  It's not only a difficult comparison, but completely inevitable and thoroughly enjoyable.  'Who was better' may be impossible to prove, but usually turns out to be the thinking man's sports argument.

I've especially enjoyed Swish's debates on this topic over the years (on basketball and a few comments I recall on baseball).  I have to give particular credibility to his arguments when he is of age to have enjoyed several eras, yet has never shown favoritism of one over another.

Regards

Rosalie,

OK; but only because it was you that asked!

I copied my earlier response and thoughts about something leftfoot had posted addressing Swish. Those are above. I think leftfoot summed it up well.

My feeling is that it's difficult yet inevitable to compare players from different eras. Although I'm personally in the Cousy camp on this one, I think Swish explains himself and his ideas in his usual well thought out fashion. I certainly find his side of the debate credible, and have to give consideration to the fact he's seen both play.

Since the whole idea behind this forum is to allow for debate, but accept differences in opinion without belaboring them, I'm good with learning a little something about how a seasoned fan like Swish sees it.

Regards
NYCelt
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Post by NYCelt Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:30 pm

jrleftfoot wrote:The number of times one person can attempt to convince another person they are wrong is , statistically, infinite. It is seldom productive, however. Actually, it may just seem to be infinite. Arrow Quinn Buckner was the 34th best Celtic point guard and I defy anyone to prove different. No Just kidding, guys. As Cousy once said of Sherman Douglas; " where are the skills?"

Lefty,

I love your take on things.

You absolutely have fit in well here and truly get the spirit behind the creation of this forum.

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Post by swish Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:32 pm

jrleftfoot and NYCelt

Thanks for understanding that differences in opinion can be the result of having a different set of values as a base.

swish

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