Lex Nihil Novi - Fitch Deploys "Four Bigs and Archibald" Strategy

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Post by cowens/oldschool Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:47 pm

so whats your point swish? Weight can also effect you in a bad way.

You don't think a young Dave Cowens couldn't abuse and run circles around Roy Hibbert or Sully?

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Post by cowens/oldschool Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:02 am

so according to you weight matters more than ability?

I can probably name 40-50 players heavier than a HoF player per position, but the HoF player has the rare ability and durability to make that kind of impact on the floor, thats more significant than their weight.

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Post by bobheckler Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:49 am

What seems to be happening here is that Swish and I are talking about averages by era, average weights, average heights, and Cowens is talking about specific players on a specific with all three front court players being HOFers.

So, even if The Big Three could win in this era they were, by definition, the best of their era since they were multiple champions.  You cannot compare the league today vs the Celtics and/or Lakers of '86.

Give Anthony Davis another year or two to grow as a baller and then let's start comparing 6'10" 255# Anthony Davis and 7'0 250# KAT to McHale and Parish.  Imagine Davis and KAT on one team and that's the '86 Celtics.  It is also completely incomprehensible for those first two to be on the same team.  McHale and Parish played together only because Red pulled off the Steal of the Century.  Franchises are lucky if they get one of those in their entire history.


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Post by swish Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:51 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:so according to you weight matters more than ability?

I can probably name 40-50 players heavier than a HoF player per position, but the HoF player has the rare ability and durability to make that kind of impact on the floor, thats more significant than their weight.

cowens

Over the last 66 years years I have witnessed an evolution in 2 team sports where weight plays a very significant role - Basketball and Football. Over the years a role pattern has developed that dictates that certain positions are best served by playing players where weight is a major factor. For football its the interior linemen - for basketball its the BIGS. 65 plus years later it's still the same format - but boy have the players weights shot up over the last 25 years or so.
Of course some of these bigs lack the athletic skill level of more famous super stars that play positions other than center or power forward, but you don't see those super stars being asked to guard the bigs on defense. And you certainly wouldn't expect Brady to play in the interior line because of his skill set as a quarterback.

So yes I'm big on weight but no more so than skill. Each plays a very important role.


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Post by cowens/oldschool Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:33 pm

For any young viewers here that never saw Dave Cowens play, he was an undersized center that was a rare breed, a leaping very athletic Caucasian, he was as ferocious and intense as he was athletic, think of KG intensity before KG. He had a post up game, a lefty hook shot and jump hook and a great 18-20 ft jumper.

He led us to 2 titles and with a little luck, health it could have been 4, and was the MVP in 73. I remember one playoff series, I think it was the Hawks in 74, their starting C and PF were Walt Bellamy and Jim Washington, both 6'11". Cowens was 6'9" and his tag team partner at PF Paul Silas was 6'7", well we had no problem dismantling Hawks that series.

Then years later Silas had left in 77 and the league had just merged, the Celtics were on their last legs, the great swingman John Havlicek was 37 and we went up against the first super team, that had great stars and depth and were younger, the 76ers. They had a great frontline with the great Dr J, predecessor to Jordan and Lebron, Georger McGinnis all star PF, Steve Mix and the 7 foot Caldwell Jones and 6'11" beast Darryl Dawkins, both at C. We took them to 7 games and in losing I was never more proud to be a Celtic fan. In that series Dave Cowens had two 20 rebound games and led both teams in rebounding, a normal occurrence for Cowens during the playoffs.

Sure weight has some significance, and its hard to compare eras, but Dave Cowens always went up against bigger players and got the best of them and had great games vs Jabbar and Wilt.....you can't convince me Dave Cowens couldn't play in any era and do very very well.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:51 pm

I used to love it when almost every all star game, Cowens would lead the game in rebounding and this was back in the day when they actually played defense in that game, what an unwatchable farce it is now !!!!

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Post by bobheckler Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:57 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:I used to love it when almost every all star game, Cowens would lead the game in rebounding and this was back in the day when they actually played defense in that game, what an unwatchable farce it is now !!!!


Absolutely. It has been many years since I watched an NBA All-Star game. As Sam used to say, I have a more pressing appointment with my dental floss.


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Post by swish Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:05 pm

I never watch the all-star game. It's developed into a big joke.

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Post by NYCelt Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:21 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:I used to love it when almost every all star game, Cowens would lead the game in rebounding and this was back in the day when they actually played defense in that game, what an unwatchable farce it is now !!!!

Cow,

Agreed; All-Star game is a total waste.

Slam-dunk and 3-point, however are annual rituals.  My son and his friends think it's great entertainment and I agree.  

Still the best ever; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BQ6iCgaoH8 Gerald Green blows out the candle.

Regards
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Post by swish Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:21 pm

cowens

"Sure weight has some significance, and its hard to compare eras, but Dave Cowens always went up against bigger players and got the best of them and had great games vs Jabbar and Wilt.....you can't convince me Dave Cowens couldn't play in any era and do very very well."

Your above statement about Cowens always going up against bigger players is far from accurate when its based on weight.
In 1975-76 there were 26 players that were listed as centers that played at least 1100 minutes - 1100 minutes will place you in the top 7 of a teams rotation.

The weights for those 26 were
1 in the 260's
2 in the 250's
1 in the 240's
6 in the 230's ,,,, including Cowens
9 in the 220's
5 in the 210's
2 in the 200's


For the 2015-16 season the numbers were - 36 players with weights of
7 in the 270's
10 in the 260's
8 in the 250's
8 in the 240's
2 in the 230's
1 in the 220's

And here's a comparison of 2pt fg%
1975-76
Only 6 of 26 players shot at .500 or better,,,,, .230%

2015-16
30 of 36 shot at .500 or better ,,,,, .833%

Certainly something to think about when comparing players from different generations. Major changes have taken place in the last 40 years.

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Post by bobheckler Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:24 pm

swish wrote:cowens

"Sure weight has some significance, and its hard to compare eras, but Dave Cowens always went up against bigger players and got the best of them and had great games vs Jabbar and Wilt.....you can't convince me Dave Cowens couldn't play in any era and do very very well."

    Your above statement about Cowens always going up against bigger players is far from accurate when its based on weight.
     In 1975-76 there were 26 players that were listed as centers that played at least 1100 minutes - 1100 minutes will place you in the top 7 of a teams rotation.

  The weights for those 26 were
 1 in the 260's
 2 in the 250's
 1 in the 240's
 6 in the 230's ,,,, including Cowens
 9 in the 220's
 5 in the 210's
 2 in the 200's


     For the 2015-16 season the numbers were - 36 players with weights of
 7 in the 270's
 10 in the 260's
 8 in the 250's
 8 in the 240's
 2 in the 230's
 1 in the 220's

And here's a comparison of 2pt fg%
  1975-76
Only 6 of 26 players shot at .500 or better,,,,, .230%

  2015-16
 30 of 36 shot at .500 or better ,,,,, .833%

    Certainly something to think about when comparing players from different generations. Major changes have taken place in the last 40 years.

  swish



     




swish,

I think, in the fg% analysis, you wanted to say 23% and 83.3% and not .23% and .833%. .23% is 1/4 of 1%.


bob


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