Happy Birthday

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Happy Birthday

Post by bobheckler on Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:21 pm

John "Hondo" Havlicek.  77 years young.

8x World Champion
NBA Finals MVP (1974)
13x NBA All-Star
4x All-NBA 1st Team
7x All-NBA 2nd Team
5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team
3x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team

Havlicek is currently 15th in Points Scored-Career.  That's pretty impressive when you consider he didn't have a 3pt line to shoot behind (Paul Pierce, btw, needs just 8 points to tie him).  

Some people have referred to Jonas Jerebko as "the Swedish Larry Bird", which I think is ridiculous for a million reasons, but the 'Swedish John Havlicek"?  Can't shoot like Havlicek, of course, but his motor is about the closest to Hondo's as I've seen in a long time.  Neither of them stop moving.

With all the training and genetic improvements we've seen over the generations they still haven't produced an athlete with a resting heartbeat of 40.















bob


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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by swish on Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:58 pm

bobheckler wrote:John "Hondo" Havlicek.  77 years young.

8x World Champion
NBA Finals MVP (1974)
13x NBA All-Star
4x All-NBA 1st Team
7x All-NBA 2nd Team
5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team
3x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team

Havlicek is currently 15th in Points Scored-Career.  That's pretty impressive when you consider he didn't have a 3pt line to shoot behind (Paul Pierce, btw, needs just 8 points to tie him).  

Some people have referred to Jonas Jerebko as "the Swedish Larry Bird", which I think is ridiculous for a million reasons, but the 'Swedish John Havlicek"?  Can't shoot like Havlicek, of course, but his motor is about the closest to Hondo's as I've seen in a long time.  Neither of them stop moving.

With all the training and genetic improvements we've seen over the generations they still haven't produced an athlete with a resting heartbeat of 40.















bob


.

I use the term elite to describe the type of player that the Celtics need to move up to being a serious contender.
 Well, based on Hondo's honors over the years (see below)  he deserves to be recognized as a super duper elite player - and we were so fortunate to have him all those years right here in Boston.

 
13x NBA All-Star
4x All-NBA 1st Team
7x All-NBA 2nd Team
5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team
3x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team

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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:44 am

Everytime I watch a replay of one or more of the games that Havlicek played in it brings back such wonderful memories of an era of basketball I grew up in. He was, besides Russell, my all time favorite basketball player. A guy with alot of class, who loved every minute of being a Boston Celtic.

My favorite memory? Too many to list just one. I graduated from high school they year they drafted Havlicek and he fast became a favorite. No one played with more heart than he did.

Can you imagine if the three pointer was around when West played? More than a few of those games could have gone the other way. He had such a smooth shot, with ice water in his veins.

Ahhh...those were the days my friends, I wished they'd never have ended!! But...then we had Larry, Kevin and Chief to entertain us, and the next generation took a while to come but Kevin, Paul, and Ray were here for some good fun too.

But Havlicek, they broke the mold there. He was awesome!

Rosalie
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:11 pm

WOW I'm shocked swish didn't point out some flaws in Hondos game compared to the modern players/superstars like he usually does !!! Guess Hondos utopian game, constant movement and relentless effort, combined with clutch scoring and shooting and position versatility is a game that stands the test of time.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:22 pm

Agreed Cow!!! don't mess with the best!!
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:24 pm

Two of my favorite Hondo moments were the whole 74 playoff run where he carried us on his back and made everyone better and the 77 playoff series against the overly hyped superstar 76ers with the supposed greatest player of that era, Doctor J, the first superstar high riser that would take the game to new depths....well 37 year old Hondo on his near last legs defended the great Dr to a near standstill and played him even steven, outscored him in at least 2 or 3 of those games in a tight contested 7 game series.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:25 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Agreed Cow!!!  don't mess with the best!!


LIKE
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:33 pm

and remember watching that 77 series with some friends, we were 17 and 2 of my buddies were Knick fans( I grew up in Jersey) and they were marveling at Havlicek's defense as he was shutting down the Dr for stretches.....sorry just getting these Hondo flashbacks.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:54 pm

I sat in the second balcony, right in front of the basket that Havlicek shot is famous "leaner" shot in the '76 triple over time game. That was the greatest game of basketball I ever saw. Players with names that you said "who?" played big and never heard from again after that series. But John Havlicek and Jo Jo White were unreal. I have so many memories that my mind just goes nuts thinking about them

In '69 when they came in 4th and were written off, I went to Philly to watch the 7th game where they Celtics took the game right from the '76er's on their home court. Havlicek and Seigfried played unbelievable, but that was the year they won the title and Russ walked off the plane and announced he was done.

Memories are so great, I am glad they are all locked in up there!!! He was so damn good that no team hated him because he just played hard and clean and they could not keep up with him.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:08 pm

I remember 69 well to Rosalie, I was just learning the nuances of the game from my father, a big C's fan, and we were such big underdogs!! all the pundits thought that was an old and battered team and it was, the Knicks and Bullets were the young turks....well we showed em!!!!!

I still remember seeing Russ's speech later, all he did was praise his teamates over and over.....
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by mulcogiseng on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:07 pm

Funny how I don't remember 1969 at all. In fact, I was quite surprised to see some of the names of the key players. Of course I was a child of the 60's so we aren't supposed to remember anything. LOL But I was deployed with 8th Army in Korea at the time. We didn't get much news or sports on "Freedom's Frontier" and rock r roll was banned up until just before I left to come back from deployment. Cherish those memories my friends, because they are special and not all of us can.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by swish on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:25 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:WOW I'm shocked swish didn't point out some flaws in Hondos game compared to the modern players/superstars like he usually does !!! Guess Hondos utopian game, constant movement and relentless effort, combined with clutch scoring and shooting and position versatility is a game that stands the test of time.

Just being fair oldschool - I loved all those old time Celtics, especially Russell, Hondo, and Cowens, and fully appreciate their ultra greatness when compared to the generation of players that they competed against - but I do question the skill level of those players of the 50's, 60's and 70's when compared to the present generation. Please understand that I also question the greatness of many super stars of other sports of 40- 65 years ago when compared to the modern generation.

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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:34 pm

mulcogiseng wrote:Funny how I don't remember 1969 at all. In fact, I was quite surprised to see some of the names of the key players. Of course I was a child of the 60's so we aren't supposed to remember anything. LOL  But I was deployed with  8th Army in Korea at the time. We didn't get much news or sports on "Freedom's Frontier" and rock r roll was banned up until just before I left to come back from deployment. Cherish those memories my friends, because they are special and not all of us can.


heres one for you mulcogieng remember the great Celtic vs Knicks rivalry from the 70's, was as good as it gets at that time. What great classic match ups: Cowens vs Reed, Silas/Nelson vs Debusshere, Hondo vs Bradley, Channey vs Barnett/Monroe, JoJo vs Clyde. This was essentially small ball, fast paced and Knicks had 5 shooters on the floor, luckily there was no 3, we were faster running the break/floor. Two great HoF centers that could run the floor, mix it up inside and run the high post offense.. The coaching and strategy was way ahead of its time.

Then remember when it was winning time in the all star games from that era, East would always go with Cowens, Debusshere, Hondo, Frazier and JoJo White in the last 5 minutes of the 4th.


Last edited by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:48 pm

swish watching the videos that bob provided, what I couldn't help noticing is what a great dynamic leaper Russell was, thanks bob. He leaps much faster than Wilt, snatching rebounds away from him and I would compare that skill to any player even playing today. Russell's jumping skills really stands out, such a quick dynamic leap. Russell at 34 has it by leaps and bounds over the present leaping skills of the 31 year old Al Horford playing today.

Also loved seeing him beat everyone down the floor for that ally opp dunk, this was Russ at 34, could you imagine him at 25-27? Unfortunately I missed that era.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:02 pm

.....also remember Willis Reed on sports talk radio years ago, I think it was Michael Kay, he was reminiscing that era, and the one player he was complimenting was Dave Cowens, how he could defend, was so hardnosed and had a complete game, and that he thought Cowens was underrated in the history of the game and didn't get the credit he deserved.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:16 pm

if you attended any games in the Garden during that Celtics-Knicks rivalry, it was loaded with New York college students who rooted so loudly for their team that at times you wondered who was the home team. This created a greater rivalry. It was fun watching those games.

Cowens was a player we will probably never see again. One of the smallest centers yet fiercest. He wore his loyalty on his chest, fought so hard that he wore himself down from the way he played, but he was a man who played the game his way and walked away with no regrets.

Each era produced some remarkable players, and if anyone wants to say that Bill Russell or John Havlicek, or even Sam Jones would not be the same now as they were then, they would get an argument from me. Bill Sharman was one of the best pure shooters on the Celtics before he was traded. He had a great career. Frank Ramsey? You love Smart now? Ramsey was one hell of a defensive player. Those teams were stocked with players that could be interchangeable with any players today. I feel strongly able that

Sure there were some who would be marginal players, but basically they were marginal back then and served a purpose on Red's teams..
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by swish on Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:24 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:swish watching the videos that bob provided, what I couldn't help noticing is what a great dynamic leaper Russell was, thanks bob. He leaps much faster than Wilt, snatching rebounds away from him and I would compare that skill to any player even playing today. Russell's jumping skills really stands out, such a quick dynamic leap. Russell at 34 has it by leaps and bounds over the present leaping skills of the 31 year old Al Horford playing today.

Also loved seeing him beat everyone down the floor for that ally opp dunk, this was Russ at 34, could you imagine him at 25-27? Unfortunately I missed that era.

oldschool

There are a few things that your not taking into consideration as you evaluate Russell's performance.
    Below link lists Russell's BIG MAN competition back during the 1968-69 season.

     
http://bkref.com/tiny/h2RdZ

       Consider the below
   * 17 of 25 players under 6'10"
   *  9 of 25 players under 6'9"
   * 20 of 25 players weighed under 240 lbs with an average weight of 227.3 lbs.  If you take out the weight of Wilt and Boerwinkle the average weight drops down to 223.6.
   * 21 of 25 players shot under .477 from 2 point range

       All vastly inferior numbers to what he would face in  2016-17
Data for the 2016-17 to follow

        swish

   Data for the 2016-17 BIG MEN

       
http://bkref.com/tiny/dD5zP

    * 1 of 24 players under 6'10"
    * 2 of 24 players weighed less than 240 lbs with an average weight of 252 lbs
    * 1 of 24 players shot under .477 from 2 point range

  Also factor in the vastly improved ball handling skills of the modern player and I would suggest that Russ would not dominate any where close to the way he did back in the 50's-60's.

  swish

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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by sinus007 on Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:43 pm

Hi,
I never saw Havlicek play therefore for me the most touching, gripping moment of his career was standing ovation before his last game - no words needed

AK
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:38 pm

swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:swish watching the videos that bob provided, what I couldn't help noticing is what a great dynamic leaper Russell was, thanks bob. He leaps much faster than Wilt, snatching rebounds away from him and I would compare that skill to any player even playing today. Russell's jumping skills really stands out, such a quick dynamic leap. Russell at 34 has it by leaps and bounds over the present leaping skills of the 31 year old Al Horford playing today.

Also loved seeing him beat everyone down the floor for that ally opp dunk, this was Russ at 34, could you imagine him at 25-27? Unfortunately I missed that era.

oldschool

There are a few things that your not taking into consideration as you evaluate Russell's performance.
    Below link lists Russell's BIG MAN competition back during the 1968-69 season.

     
    http://bkref.com/tiny/h2RdZ

       Consider the below
   * 17 of 25 players under 6'10"
   *  9 of 25 players under 6'9"
   * 20 of 25 players weighed under 240 lbs with an average weight of 227.3 lbs.  If you take out the weight of Wilt and Boerwinkle the average weight drops down to 223.6.
   * 21 of 25 players shot under .477 from 2 point range

       All vastly inferior numbers to what he would face in  2016-17
Data for the 2016-17 to follow

        swish

   Data for the 2016-17 BIG MEN

       
      http://bkref.com/tiny/dD5zP

    * 1 of 24 players under 6'10"
    * 2 of 24 players weighed less than 240 lbs with an average weight of 252 lbs
    * 1 of 24 players shot under .477 from 2 point range

  Also factor in the vastly improved ball handling skills of the modern player and I would suggest that Russ would not dominate any where close to the way he did back in the 50's-60's.

  swish


no question if he and Wilt were playing today, they would not be as dominating as today....Sam and I went at it in this same topic
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by swish on Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:58 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:swish watching the videos that bob provided, what I couldn't help noticing is what a great dynamic leaper Russell was, thanks bob. He leaps much faster than Wilt, snatching rebounds away from him and I would compare that skill to any player even playing today. Russell's jumping skills really stands out, such a quick dynamic leap. Russell at 34 has it by leaps and bounds over the present leaping skills of the 31 year old Al Horford playing today.

Also loved seeing him beat everyone down the floor for that ally opp dunk, this was Russ at 34, could you imagine him at 25-27? Unfortunately I missed that era.

oldschool

I don't have a game video of when he was 25 years old (1959-60) but here are the BIG MAN STATS for that year.

http://bkref.com/tiny/5b2O2

* Lousy shooters for sure - check out their 2 point shooting percentages
* Average weight = 223.4 - Take Wilt out of the picture and the weight drops down to 219.4
* Only 4 players out of 14 6'10" or taller
* only 4 players out of 14 weighed 230 lbs or more
* 10 players would be classified as small forwards or guards by modern standards

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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:28 am

swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:swish watching the videos that bob provided, what I couldn't help noticing is what a great dynamic leaper Russell was, thanks bob. He leaps much faster than Wilt, snatching rebounds away from him and I would compare that skill to any player even playing today. Russell's jumping skills really stands out, such a quick dynamic leap. Russell at 34 has it by leaps and bounds over the present leaping skills of the 31 year old Al Horford playing today.

Also loved seeing him beat everyone down the floor for that ally opp dunk, this was Russ at 34, could you imagine him at 25-27? Unfortunately I missed that era.

 oldschool

I don't have a game video of when he was 25 years old (1959-60) but here are the BIG MAN STATS for that year.

       http://bkref.com/tiny/5b2O2

      * Lousy shooters for sure - check out their 2 point shooting percentages
      * Average weight = 223.4 - Take Wilt out of the picture and the weight drops down to 219.4
      * Only 4 players out of 14  6'10" or taller
      * only 4 players out of 14 weighed 230 lbs or more
      * 10 players would be classified as small forwards or guards by modern standards

  swish


this was the early stages of the game. as the game grew more and more innovative ways to training and developing skills has kept on evolving, ofcourse the players developed and changed for the better.....I am still impressed with Russell's athletic and leaping abilities, was the key to his defensive and rebounding dominance. Sam used to say if the 60's players had the knowledge of todays weight training, plyometrics, stretching and nutrition that they too would have upgraded their games comparable with todays standards.
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Re: Happy Birthday

Post by swish on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:11 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:swish watching the videos that bob provided, what I couldn't help noticing is what a great dynamic leaper Russell was, thanks bob. He leaps much faster than Wilt, snatching rebounds away from him and I would compare that skill to any player even playing today. Russell's jumping skills really stands out, such a quick dynamic leap. Russell at 34 has it by leaps and bounds over the present leaping skills of the 31 year old Al Horford playing today.

Also loved seeing him beat everyone down the floor for that ally opp dunk, this was Russ at 34, could you imagine him at 25-27? Unfortunately I missed that era.

 oldschool

I don't have a game video of when he was 25 years old (1959-60) but here are the BIG MAN STATS for that year.

       http://bkref.com/tiny/5b2O2

      * Lousy shooters for sure - check out their 2 point shooting percentages
      * Average weight = 223.4 - Take Wilt out of the picture and the weight drops down to 219.4
      * Only 4 players out of 14  6'10" or taller
      * only 4 players out of 14 weighed 230 lbs or more
      * 10 players would be classified as small forwards or guards by modern standards

  swish


this was the early stages of the game. as the game grew more and more innovative ways to training and developing skills has kept on evolving, ofcourse the players developed and changed for the better.....I am still impressed with Russell's athletic and leaping abilities, was the key to his defensive and rebounding dominance. Sam used to say if the 60's players had the knowledge of todays weight training, plyometrics, stretching and nutrition that they too would have upgraded their games comparable with todays standards.

oldschool

Its amazing how much things have changed in the last 50 or 60 years - especially so in the technical, and athletic world as innovation is almost a daily occurrence. Its the advances of time, especially the total acceptance of blacks into the sports world, that separate those players of the early years from the moderns - but the differences are very real. My hat is off to those early pioneers of the nba. Their greatness should be recognized on the basis of their accomplishment during their generation.


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