Pierce Passes Havlicek

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Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by bobheckler on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:03 pm

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/04/11/morning-shootaround-april-11-2017



In the penultimate regular-season game of his career, Pierce crafted a vintage performance. With the game in hand and college coach Roy Williams in the stands, he scored 10 straight points in the fourth quarter.

Those final points had special meaning for Pierce, who spent most of his career with the Boston Celtics. With his final basket, Pierce moved past Boston great John Havlicek for 15th on the NBA’s all-time scoring list with 26,397 points.



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MY NOTE:  Well, if someone is going to pass Celtic great John Havlicek at least it's another Celtic great.  And this is just like The Truth too, coming up with 10 points and the slide into 15th in what might be his last NBA appearance.  Clutch. Congrats, Paul!


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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:47 pm

So close statistically.

http://bkref.com/tiny/FDscn


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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by Shamrock1000 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:28 pm

swish wrote:So close statistically.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/FDscn


  swish

Thanks for posting this, interesting. Surprised that PP looks much better in most of the advanced stats - not sure I would have predicted that. Otherwise, as you say "so close..."

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
swish wrote:So close statistically.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/FDscn


  swish

Thanks for posting this, interesting. Surprised that PP looks much better in most of the advanced stats - not sure I would have predicted that. Otherwise, as you say "so close..."


The better numbers for Pierce in some of the advanced stats are due to averaging - because some of Hondo's numbers are elevated because of the much higher number of shots taken by teams during his career resulting in more fga by individual players. The more shots resulted in more misses - and as a result more rebound results.


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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by beat on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:29 pm

Hondo never had the 3 ball, had the range to make some but no need to shoot from distance then.


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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by worcester on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:25 pm

So remarkably close. So great being a Celtics fan. So many heroes.
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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:37 pm


I doubt that the 3 point shot would have have been a major weapon for those outside shooters of the pre 3 point shot generations - it took 7 years to get the league average up to .300 - and that was with teams only averaging 2-3 shots per game. It wasn't until 1997-98 that the .340 percentage was reached. Even Bird, who was an excellent 3 point shooter, didn't reach the 3 point attempts per game mark until he was 30 years old.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by beat on Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:20 am

swish wrote:
I doubt that the 3 point shot would have have been a major weapon for those outside shooters of the pre 3 point shot generations - it took 7 years to get the league average up to .300 - and that was with teams only averaging 2-3 shots per game. It wasn't until 1997-98 that the .340 percentage was reached. Even Bird, who was an excellent 3 point shooter, didn't reach the 3 point attempts per game mark until he was 30 years old.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

    swish

Pure speculation.

No need to shoot the 3 if it only counts for 2. Plus he had quite a few others around him capable of scoring.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:16 am

beat wrote:
swish wrote:
I doubt that the 3 point shot would have have been a major weapon for those outside shooters of the pre 3 point shot generations - it took 7 years to get the league average up to .300 - and that was with teams only averaging 2-3 shots per game. It wasn't until 1997-98 that the .340 percentage was reached. Even Bird, who was an excellent 3 point shooter, didn't reach the 3 point attempts per game mark until he was 30 years old.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

    swish

Pure speculation.  

No need to shoot the 3  if it only counts for 2. Plus he had quite a few others around him capable of scoring.

beat

  beat

Of course it's speculation on my part - being that its not provable - but based on the below link there is good reason to speculate that the best of shooters, who never got to take the 3 point shot, would have struggled percentage wise.

     http://bkref.com/tiny/5I3MM

  * The top scorers in 1979-80
  * Great shooting percentages on their 2 point attempts
  * Lousy shooting percentages on their 3 point attempts
  * Rarely shot the 3 pointer
  * And over the next 6 years it was more of the same - as they struggled to reach the 3 attempts per game and .300 shooting percentages

       It certainly suggests to me that there's a real good chance that Hondo would not have benefited from the 3 point shot - any more than the players of those early 3 point years when the 3 pointer was a looser for most players.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by beat on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:20 am

swish wrote:
beat wrote:
swish wrote:
I doubt that the 3 point shot would have have been a major weapon for those outside shooters of the pre 3 point shot generations - it took 7 years to get the league average up to .300 - and that was with teams only averaging 2-3 shots per game. It wasn't until 1997-98 that the .340 percentage was reached. Even Bird, who was an excellent 3 point shooter, didn't reach the 3 point attempts per game mark until he was 30 years old.

 http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

    swish

Pure speculation.  

No need to shoot the 3  if it only counts for 2. Plus he had quite a few others around him capable of scoring.

beat

  beat

Of course it's speculation on my part - being that its not provable - but based on the below link there is good reason to speculate that the best of shooters, who never got to take the 3 point shot, would have struggled percentage wise.

     http://bkref.com/tiny/5I3MM

  * The top scorers in 1979-80
  * Great shooting percentages on their 2 point attempts
  * Lousy shooting percentages on their 3 point attempts
  * Rarely shot the 3 pointer
  * And over the next 6 years it was more of the same - as they struggled to reach the 3 attempts per game and .300 shooting percentages

       It certainly suggests to me that there's a real good chance that Hondo would not have benefited from the 3 point shot - any more than the players of those early 3 point years when the 3 pointer was a looser for most players.

  swish

Again he didn't have it is all i'm saying and if he did he'd have made some. Not sure Red would have allowed anyone to take any anyway !! Comparing eras is sort of an endeavor in futility no matter what it is we discuss. Game was different then as we well know



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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by worcester on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:27 am

Had Hondo practiced three point shooting for four years at Ohio State we wouldn't be speculating now on his ability to hit the three in the NBA. He succeeded in every other endeavor on the court. No reason to think he'd fail as a long distance bomber. That said, this discussion is one that must forever live in the realm of fantasy.
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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:18 am

he'd be a lot better at 3's than Smart
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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:40 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:he'd be a lot better at 3's than Smart

oldschool

I tend to agree with you on that one.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:03 pm

worcester wrote:  Had Hondo practiced three point shooting for four years at Ohio State we wouldn't be speculating now on his ability to hit the three in the NBA. He succeeded in every other endeavor on the court. No reason to think he'd fail as a long distance bomber. That said,  this discussion is one that must forever live in the realm of fantasy.

worcester

   After practicing the 2 point shot for 4 years at Ohio State - that Buckeye shot a lowly 44.5% in his 1st year
  * 44.50 % in his 1st year with the Celts
  * 41.77% in his 2nd year
  * 40.10% in his 3rd year
  * 39.90% in his 4th year
  * The league average for all 2 point shots in 1979-80 was 48.10%

  Shooting was not one of his strong suits - nor was it for the league on average
* 1962-63 - 44.1%
* 1963-64 - 43.3%
* 1964-65 - 42.6%
* 1965 66 - 43.3%


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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by worcester on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:20 pm

Hmm. Ok. I'm not drafting Hondo on my Fantasy Team. Thanks Swish. You just saved me a ton of money.
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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by swish on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:37 pm

worcester wrote:Hmm. Ok. I'm not drafting Hondo on my Fantasy Team. Thanks Swish. You just saved me a ton of money.

Put him on your all time fantasy team - he deserves to be evaluated based on his numbers vs his peers. I just happen to have a hobby where I enjoy comparing players statistically from different generations.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by worcester on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:51 pm

Sarcasm aside, Hondo is one of my favorite players from any sport any era. His daughter was a great lacrosse player too.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by jrleftfoot on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:49 pm

Tough comparison. I think Hondo was more versatile, Pierce better at creating his own shot . Pierce was a great competitor but few had a motor like Havlicek. I kinda lean toward Havlicek because he was an integral part of 2 separate generations of Celtic champs. Of course Russell and Cowens were the centers on those teams.Havlicek did a helluva job of defending Rick Barry despite Barry`s size advantage.
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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by cowens/oldschool on Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:47 am

Hondo's 74 playoff run and championship MVP was one of the most dominant wing SG-SF runs in the history of the game, comparable to any great runs by Kobe, Pierce, Bird or Lebron, but Lebrons last 3 Finals games might be the best 3 game stretch by any player ever.
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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by wideclyde on Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:54 pm

I am just pretty happy that I got to see the full Boston careers of both of these absolutely fabulous Celtics.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

Post by Shamrock1000 on Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:05 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Hondo's 74 playoff run and championship MVP was one of the most dominant wing SG-SF runs in the history of the game, comparable to any great runs by Kobe, Pierce, Bird or Lebron, but Lebrons last 3 Finals games might be the best 3 game stretch by any player ever.

I agree. It seems hard to believe, but LeBron might actually be underated, especially in the eyes of younger casual fans. But all the SF you list were forces of nature.

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Re: Pierce Passes Havlicek

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