POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

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POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:54 pm

Bulls 111, Celtics 97: C’s in serious, serious trouble after dropping first two in Boston

WEEI

By Josue Pavon  

The Celtics are in trouble.

With old friend Rajon Rondo turning back the clock and falling a rebound shy of a triple-double, and his Bulls teammates playing free and easy, Chicago romped to a 111-97 victory in Boston to open a 2-0 lead in the best-of-seven first round series.

Led by Jimmy Butler (22 points) and Dwyane Wade (22 points), the Bulls buried the Celtics in the second half — demolishing any hopes of a close game midway through the fourth quarter. Chicago’s leading scorers combined for 29 of the Bulls’ 57 second-half points and got it done on both ends of the floor, with help from Rondo (11 points, 9 rebounds, 14 assists, 5 steals), who was everywhere.

Offensively, the Bulls fired on all cylinders, shooting 51.1 percent.

The Celtics leaped out to a quick 7-0 lead before the Bulls responded with a 9-2 run and went on from there. Chicago led mostly throughout the first half before Robin Lopez — who scored 10 first-half points — caught fire in the third quarter en route to 18 points and eight rebounds.

Meanwhile, it felt like the Celtics couldn’t get any offense from anyone not named Isaiah Thomas, who was harassed into 6-for-15 shooting en route to 20 points. Thomas, the second best free throw shooter in the league during the season, went an uncharacteristic 7-for-13 from the line, not that it mattered.

Thomas plans to leave the team on Wednesday and return to his native Washington for the funeral of his sister, Chyna, who died in a single-car crash on Saturday. His teammates have been given the option of joining him. The series resumes with Game 3 in Chicago on Friday.

Through three quarters, the Celtics only trailed by 11 points (86-75) but were far from grabbing any offensive momentum. When Kelly Olynyk drained a 3-pointer to pull the Celtics within nine points with under 10 minutes left, it felt like an opportunity for the C’s to capitalize, but instead the Bulls went on a 13-6 run keyed by the three-time champion Wade.

As the Celtics left the floor to boos, it was clear what lay ahead — they’ll need to win four of the next five to avoid their third straight first-round ouster.
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Celtics in 0-2 series hole after 111-97 loss to Bulls

CSNNE

By A. Sherrod Blakely April 18, 2017 10:26 PM


BOSTON – For most of this season, the Boston Celtics have managed to claw their way out of self-inflicted struggles eventually.

But the hole they’re in now will be unprecedented for this franchise following Tuesday’s 111-97 loss to the Chicago Bulls.

You have to go back to the 1969 NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers the last time a Celtics team trailed 2-0 in a best-of-seven series and rallied to win it.

But those two losses back in 1969 were on the road, and these two were on the Celtics’ home floor.

And unfortunately for the Celtics, 1969 Bill Russell and 1969 Sam Jones aren’t walking through the door.

Only 18 teams in NBA history have ever come back from a 2-0 series deficit which has happened each of the last two seasons. (Cleveland last year against Golden State, and Portland against the Los Angeles Clippers in 2015).

But this series, while far from over, has a feeling of when – not if – the Bulls will become the latest eighth-seed to knock off a top seed in the first round.

The formula for Chicago’s success – rebounding and solid defense – served the Bulls well in Both Games 1 and 2.

But on Tuesday, the Celtics continued to fight back in the fourth quarter in what was an uphill climb all game.

After falling behind by double digits in the third and early in the fourth quarter, Boston was within 89-80 following a 3-pointer by Kelly Olynyk with just over 10 minutes to play.

Following a Bulls time-out, ex-Celtic Rajon Rondo scored on a scoop shot over Kelly Olynyk.

Boston could have made it a single-digit game again, but Jae Crowder’s 3-pointer was off the mark and in a scramble for the loose ball it wound up going off a Celtics player.

It has been that kind of series for the Celtics.

When opportunities present themselves to make potential momentum-shifting plays, they shriveled up like a slug dipped in salt water.

The Celtics didn’t get the deficit down to single digits until a 3-pointer by Marcus Smart made it a 95-86 game.

But the Bulls once again countered with good defense and better offense, forcing the Celtics to call a time-out following an uncontested dunk by Cristiano Felicio that capped off a 7-0 Bulls run that made it a 102-86 game with 6:01 to play.

Celtics head coach Brad Stevens called a time-out, hoping that maybe just maybe, his team could at least make a solid finish.

Sadly, it was more of the same for the Celtics as the Bulls got anything and everything they wanted at both ends of the floor.

And with the series now shifting to Chicago, things won’t get any easier for a Boston team that’s on the verge of being the rare No. 1 seed to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

Boston simply doesn’t have the muscle to contend with Chicago inside, and Chicago’s Big Three – Jimmy Butler, Dwyane Wade and ex-Celtic Rajon Rondo.

Similar to how the Celtics began the game, they opened the third quarter with a nice 13-6 run to come within 60-59 following a lay-up by Isaiah Thomas.

At the start of the game, Boston came out with what looked like a clear mandate to be a more physical, aggressive team at both ends of the floor.

And it worked as they opened things with a 7-2 run.

But the Bulls soon got back to what they’ve done well – attack the offensive glass.

They soon began scoring around the rim, and led by as 12 points in the first quarter.

Robin Lopez continued to cause the Celtics problems around the paint which is where the Bulls outscored Boston 32-20 in the first half.

The Bulls shot 47.1 percent from the field in the first half, with strong contributions from their bench.

But instead of Bobby Portis who had 19 points and nine rebounds in Game 1, Paul Zipser chipped in eight points on 3-for-4 shooting.

As bad as Boston was playing, the Celtics did finish the first quarter with an 8-2 run to come within 31-26 after one quarter of play.

Boston usually starts the second quarter with Thomas on the bench.

But considering the deficit they were trailing by and the significance of this game, Celtics head coach Brad Stevens decided to keep his best scorer on the floor.

His presence was felt as the Celtics opened the second with an 8-2 spurt to lead 34-33 following a Marcus Smart put-back basket.

But the lead was short-lived after Portis drained a corner 3-pointer to put the Bulls back on top 36-34.

On Boston’s ensuing possession, Smart drove into the lane and found Jae Crowder open for a game-tying lay-up.

The Celtics would not get any closer for the remainder of the half.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:00 pm

The Bulls have 22 steals in 2 games.

The Bulls won 16 road games all season, they just won 2 in a row.

Last game we lost due to poor rebounding. We lost the rebounding battle tonight but only 43-38, so not that badly. It looked like they were killing us on the boards, and they were in the 1st half, but in the end both teams snagged 11 offensive boards, they just got a few more defensive rebounds because they shot 51% and we shot 46%. Lower fg% means more rebounds to be had by the defense. No, this time it was steals. They had 12 steals, off of bad passing by us.


Who is a playoff player on this team?  If Reggie Jackson was Mr. October, who is Mr. May here?  

1.  Marcus Smart is a playoff player.  We saw that last year, we saw that in game 1 and we saw it tonight.  13 points on 6-11, 8 rebounds.  Only 2 assists but 2 blocks including a beauty on Butler.

2.  Terry Rozier is a playoff player.  We saw that last year and we saw it tonight.  No big stats but played hard.

That's about it.  I could say some good things about Kelly's offense (11 points on 4-8 and 7 assists), I could say some good things about Crowder but I'm just moving deck chairs around on the Titanic.  Our bigs got eaten alive by theirs.  Think about this, though.  I'm looking at just two players on the Celtics that are playoff warriors and neither one of them start.  You want to give IT a pass because of his sister and all, fine, that makes 3 with only 1 being a starter and that is NOT going to win you a playoff series.


They shot 51% for the game.  If our forte is defense over offense then we're awful because 51% is not good defense.

Their starting 5 had 36 rebounds.  The Boston Celtics had 38, total.  

What's ironic is that their front court was killing ours, especially Lopez, but points in the paint we won decisively 52-44.  They beat us in every other category, though.  Every.  One.


Horford with 11 rebounds and 5 assists but only 7 points.

Bradley 5-15 and not good defense on either Butler or DWade.

Amir is 29 who plays like he has a 39 year old's body and ran around like a chicken with his head cut like a 19 year old. 9 minutes and looked terrible. The worst I've ever seen him.


Bill Doyle @BillDoyle15
about 12 minutes ago
With next 2 games in Chicago, Celtics could be first No. 1 seed to get swept by a No. 8 seed.
reply retweet like


http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400950321



bob


.


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:05 pm

As much as it is easy to criticize the players, I think its time to turn to the coaching staff and the game plan they drew up for Chicago.

As I stated in another post, watch out for Chicago as they are dangerous.

If they lose this series, it will be a major setback for the Celtics, especially in free agency.  I think the road to #18 has to come with a major trade for a superstar caliber player.

Perhaps we revisit Carmello Anthony if he is bought out.  We need a shooter for sure and a stopper in the paint, Zizic although showing great promise....will be a rookie and needs 2-3 years to learn the position on an NBA level.  

112288


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by steve3344 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:18 pm

112288 wrote:Bulls 111, Celtics 97: C’s in serious, serious trouble after dropping first two in Boston

WEEI

By Josue Pavon  

The Celtics are in trouble.

With old friend Rajon Rondo turning back the clock and falling a rebound shy of a triple-double, and his Bulls teammates playing free and easy, Chicago romped to a 111-97 victory in Boston to open a 2-0 lead in the best-of-seven first round series.

Led by Jimmy Butler (22 points) and Dwyane Wade (22 points), the Bulls buried the Celtics in the second half — demolishing any hopes of a close game midway through the fourth quarter. Chicago’s leading scorers combined for 29 of the Bulls’ 57 second-half points and got it done on both ends of the floor, with help from Rondo (11 points, 9 rebounds, 14 assists, 5 steals), who was everywhere.

Offensively, the Bulls fired on all cylinders, shooting 51.1 percent.

The Celtics leaped out to a quick 7-0 lead before the Bulls responded with a 9-2 run and went on from there. Chicago led mostly throughout the first half before Robin Lopez — who scored 10 first-half points — caught fire in the third quarter en route to 18 points and eight rebounds.

Meanwhile, it felt like the Celtics couldn’t get any offense from anyone not named Isaiah Thomas, who was harassed into 6-for-15 shooting en route to 20 points. Thomas, the second best free throw shooter in the league during the season, went an uncharacteristic 7-for-13 from the line, not that it mattered.

Thomas plans to leave the team on Wednesday and return to his native Washington for the funeral of his sister, Chyna, who died in a single-car crash on Saturday. His teammates have been given the option of joining him. The series resumes with Game 3 in Chicago on Friday.

Through three quarters, the Celtics only trailed by 11 points (86-75) but were far from grabbing any offensive momentum. When Kelly Olynyk drained a 3-pointer to pull the Celtics within nine points with under 10 minutes left, it felt like an opportunity for the C’s to capitalize, but instead the Bulls went on a 13-6 run keyed by the three-time champion Wade.

As the Celtics left the floor to boos, it was clear what lay ahead — they’ll need to win four of the next five to avoid their third straight first-round ouster.
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Celtics in 0-2 series hole after 111-97 loss to Bulls

CSNNE

By A. Sherrod Blakely April 18, 2017 10:26 PM


BOSTON – For most of this season, the Boston Celtics have managed to claw their way out of self-inflicted struggles eventually.

But the hole they’re in now will be unprecedented for this franchise following Tuesday’s 111-97 loss to the Chicago Bulls.

You have to go back to the 1969 NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers the last time a Celtics team trailed 2-0 in a best-of-seven series and rallied to win it.

But those two losses back in 1969 were on the road, and these two were on the Celtics’ home floor.

And unfortunately for the Celtics, 1969 Bill Russell and 1969 Sam Jones aren’t walking through the door.

Only 18 teams in NBA history have ever come back from a 2-0 series deficit which has happened each of the last two seasons. (Cleveland last year against Golden State, and Portland against the Los Angeles Clippers in 2015).

But this series, while far from over, has a feeling of when – not if – the Bulls will become the latest eighth-seed to knock off a top seed in the first round.

The formula for Chicago’s success – rebounding and solid defense – served the Bulls well in Both Games 1 and 2.

But on Tuesday, the Celtics continued to fight back in the fourth quarter in what was an uphill climb all game.

After falling behind by double digits in the third and early in the fourth quarter, Boston was within 89-80 following a 3-pointer by Kelly Olynyk with just over 10 minutes to play.

Following a Bulls time-out, ex-Celtic Rajon Rondo scored on a scoop shot over Kelly Olynyk.

Boston could have made it a single-digit game again, but Jae Crowder’s 3-pointer was off the mark and in a scramble for the loose ball it wound up going off a Celtics player.

It has been that kind of series for the Celtics.

When opportunities present themselves to make potential momentum-shifting plays, they shriveled up like a slug dipped in salt water.

The Celtics didn’t get the deficit down to single digits until a 3-pointer by Marcus Smart made it a 95-86 game.

But the Bulls once again countered with good defense and better offense, forcing the Celtics to call a time-out following an uncontested dunk by Cristiano Felicio that capped off a 7-0 Bulls run that made it a 102-86 game with 6:01 to play.

Celtics head coach Brad Stevens called a time-out, hoping that maybe just maybe, his team could at least make a solid finish.

Sadly, it was more of the same for the Celtics as the Bulls got anything and everything they wanted at both ends of the floor.

And with the series now shifting to Chicago, things won’t get any easier for a Boston team that’s on the verge of being the rare No. 1 seed to get bounced in the first round of the playoffs.

Boston simply doesn’t have the muscle to contend with Chicago inside, and Chicago’s Big Three – Jimmy Butler, Dwyane Wade and ex-Celtic Rajon Rondo.

Similar to how the Celtics began the game, they opened the third quarter with a nice 13-6 run to come within 60-59 following a lay-up by Isaiah Thomas.

At the start of the game, Boston came out with what looked like a clear mandate to be a more physical, aggressive team at both ends of the floor.

And it worked as they opened things with a 7-2 run.

But the Bulls soon got back to what they’ve done well – attack the offensive glass.

They soon began scoring around the rim, and led by as 12 points in the first quarter.

Robin Lopez continued to cause the Celtics problems around the paint which is where the Bulls outscored Boston 32-20 in the first half.

The Bulls shot 47.1 percent from the field in the first half, with strong contributions from their bench.

But instead of Bobby Portis who had 19 points and nine rebounds in Game 1, Paul Zipser chipped in eight points on 3-for-4 shooting.

As bad as Boston was playing, the Celtics did finish the first quarter with an 8-2 run to come within 31-26 after one quarter of play.

Boston usually starts the second quarter with Thomas on the bench.

But considering the deficit they were trailing by and the significance of this game, Celtics head coach Brad Stevens decided to keep his best scorer on the floor.

His presence was felt as the Celtics opened the second with an 8-2 spurt to lead 34-33 following a Marcus Smart put-back basket.

But the lead was short-lived after Portis drained a corner 3-pointer to put the Bulls back on top 36-34.

On Boston’s ensuing possession, Smart drove into the lane and found Jae Crowder open for a game-tying lay-up.

The Celtics would not get any closer for the remainder of the half.

112288
"Only 18 teams in NBA history have ever come back from a 2-0 series deficit which has happened each of the last two seasons. (Cleveland last year against Golden State, and Portland against the Los Angeles Clippers in 2015)."


Irrelevant stat.  That includes a lot of teams that (not surprisingly) lost the first two on the road. Teams are 3-20 that lose the first two games at home in a 7 game series.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:30 pm

I'll tell you one thing for sure.............Danny will not sit pat this time around!

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by steve3344 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:39 pm

112288 wrote:I'll tell you one thing for sure.............Danny will not sit pat this time around!

112288
I thought you could only stand pat.  Come to think of it, sitting pat would be a lot more relaxing.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by steve3344 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:01 am

Charles Barkley says the Celtics need to play Zeller more.

Uh, no thanks.

Giving Zeller more minutes is hardly the key to beating the Bulls.

Playing tougher and smarter is. We missed so many bunnies tonight, made so many poor passes, missed too many free throws (IT missed 6 all by himself) and were outhustled and outfought all night. We are the shortest team in the playoffs but Zeller is not the answer just because he's a seven footer. He doesn't play like one.

AB has had two subpar to poor games in a row and cannot be considered a starting shooting guard for a team that has championship expectations. No way is he a $20 million dollar player. I've had my doubts about him for years, and along with him being injured so often he's never been a reliable enough scorer, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs (39% FG%, 25% 3-pt % for his career).

Amidst Isaiah's grief, the rest of his teammates let IT down. They should've been inspired to turn it up a notch. Maybe with their backs against the wall now they can turn things around in a hostile environment the next two games. 

These first two games have been embarrassing.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by Ktronic1 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:20 am

I'd like to believe that we can win 2 games in Chicago and I hold out hope. It would be a lot different if the C's played their best basketball and still got beat. But they haven't even come close to playing up to the level that they are capable of.
Not taking anything away from the Bulls because they have played great but if we play the best basketball we can play we can still get back and even win this series. Doesn't look good but I choose to believe that they can. Either way, big changes should be coming for this team come off season. Lots of goodbyes and lots of hellos. Change is coming...
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by kdp59 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:14 am

Smart again showing that when the big lights come on , he is ready. boy does he remind me of Dennis Johnson.

yes Bob, Rozier looked like he was ready too.

everyone else has been what they are. Horford is a secondary player not a max star. I think that is apparent to all now. too bad Danny is stuck with his contract for three more years.

Crowder has limited skills and frankly is a marginal NBA starter.

Bradley shrinks from the moment more often than rising to it and his yearly injuries make him expendable ( IF Danny can find a buyer now on his expiring year).

Kelly is Kelly, like most on this team he has no ability to be an alpha. I like him more than most, but unless he is willing to play for Jerebko money next year, I say .....NEXT!

Jerebko?......has he played..not that I think it matters, just asking.

Brown is a rookie, so I give him a pass in this. I do think he is another building block. (with Smart and Rozier)

Amir IS old, he has a lot of miles on those skinny legs....thanks for the memorys...GONE.

Whoever said Zeller should be playing more against Lopes is RIGHT. he is the only guy we have with NBA size and last night he was at least wressling Lopez every chance he got. Brad should sit Amir and play Zeller, telling him to ge on Lopez like s#it on stink all game.. EARN that $8M Zeller!

We were fooled this year, by Brads ability to get the most out of lesser players I think. this team was exposed for what we are in the Cleveland game....we ALL saw it. Maybe we didn't want to think it was real.

We are the 2015 Atlanta Hawks now.

number 18 is a very long way off, folks. not even worth discussing now.

the only players I would keep are Smart, Brown and Rozier and Both Nets picks. This will be a long rebuild, we might as well understand it.


That's right I would move IT if a good deal comes, he will NOT be a part of the next title in Boston IMO.

someone mentioned Melo...I would Offer them Horford for him even up. Not because Melo makes us a contender, but because his contract is shorter than the Horford mistake. sometimes you gotta admit your mistakes and cut your losses.

This team is a mess and we all see it, no matter what happens from here on out.




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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:30 am

kdp59 wrote:Smart again showing that when the big lights come on , he is ready. boy does he remind me of Dennis Johnson.

yes Bob, Rozier looked like he was ready too.

everyone else has been what they are. Horford is a secondary player not a max star. I  think that is apparent to all now. too bad Danny is stuck with his contract for three more years.

Crowder has limited skills and frankly is a marginal NBA starter.

Bradley shrinks from the moment more often than rising to it and his yearly injuries make him expendable ( IF Danny can find a buyer now on his expiring year).

Kelly is Kelly, like most on this team he has no ability to be an alpha. I like him more than most, but unless he is willing to play for Jerebko money next year, I say .....NEXT!

Jerebko?......has he played..not that I think it matters, just asking.

Brown is a rookie, so I give him a pass in this. I do think he is another building block. (with Smart and Rozier)

Amir IS old, he has a lot of miles on those skinny legs....thanks for the memorys...GONE.

Whoever said Zeller should be playing more against Lopes is RIGHT. he is the only guy we have with NBA size and last night he was at least wressling Lopez every chance he got. Brad should sit Amir and play Zeller, telling him to ge on Lopez like s#it on stink all game.. EARN that $8M Zeller!

We were fooled this year, by Brads ability to get the most out of lesser players I think. this team was exposed for what we are in the Cleveland game....we ALL saw it. Maybe we didn't want to think it was real.

We are the 2015 Atlanta Hawks now.

number 18 is a very long way off, folks. not even worth discussing now.

the only players I would keep are Smart, Brown and Rozier and Both Nets picks. This will be a long rebuild, we might as well understand it.


That's right I would move IT if a good deal comes, he will NOT be a part of the next title in Boston IMO.

someone mentioned Melo...I would Offer them Horford for him even up. Not because Melo makes us a contender, but because his contract is shorter than the Horford mistake. sometimes you gotta admit your mistakes and cut your losses.

This team is a mess and we all see it, no matter what happens from here on out.






kdp,

I agree with most of what you wrote.  Where you went off the rails, with me, is with trading Horford for Melo.  That isn't just hitting the reset button that's hitting the reset button while poking yourself in the eye.  No thanks.  Otherwise, I'm good with moving a lot of this roster.  Chicago stumbled along through the year, squeaking into the playoffs, but then their championship veterans and young all-star started doing what they do.  Young teams do not win championships and we need more guys with pedigree more than we need more guys with years ahead of them.  

As for trading IT, I'm going to cut him a little slack for this game.  I was expecting a letdown from his loss and last night was it.  He had 18 points after 3 and only 20 on the game. His 7-13 from the line highlights the stress he was feeling.  He did score 33 in Game 1, so he can be a playoff player.

In game 1 they went straight to our well-documented weakness, rebounding.  In game 2 they found another weakness to exploit.  As far as rebounding goes the final numbers were Chicago 43, Boston 38.  Offensive rebounds:  Chicago 11, Boston 11.  We did not lose that game by 14 points, and it really wasn't even that close towards the end, because they got 5 more defensive boards than us.  They won it by getting 6 more steals than us.  Steals are live balls and they ran on us and scored 5 more points on fast breaks than us.  They took 6 more fgas than us.  6 more live ball steals, 6 more fgas and they shot 51% on the game and I'd be willing the bet the fg% off those steals were higher than that.

We have a few more games to see how players respond but so far I'm seeing a small handful of Boston Celtic players who are keepers and that's not good.


bob


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by sinus007 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:34 am

Hi,
I don't know about autopsy, yet. I don't want to have "autopsy showed that the cause of death was autopsy"
I still have hope. As for the last game, Bulls just outplayed Celtics in all aspects of the game, they were just a better team. I don't know what the Celtics will do in Chicago but they have to come up with something. I hope that coach and players will be able to figure it out.

AK
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by kdp59 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:46 am

LOL...yes Bob I am off the rails a bit.

after reflecting a bit on my meltdown, I would rather send Horford back to the Hawks and take back Howard and his slightly smaller deal that has one year less on it. My only idea is to get Horford contract off our books faster somehow.

with IT, I am saying that he may be at his peak and after next year will want max dollars. If I can sell high I will, other wise let him walk for greener dollars after next year. I think his game has peaked and as he loses a half step , his game will show it.

our top draft pick should be his replacement in two years.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by Matty on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:01 pm

Ugh.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:14 pm

kdp59 wrote:LOL...yes Bob I am off the rails a bit.

after reflecting a bit on my meltdown, I would rather send Horford back to the Hawks and take back Howard and his slightly smaller deal that has one year less on it. My only idea is to get Horford contract off our books faster somehow.

with IT, I am saying that he may be at his peak and after next year will want max dollars. If I can sell high I will, other wise let him walk for greener dollars after next year. I think his game has peaked and as he loses a half step , his game will show it.

our top draft pick should be his replacement in two years.



kdp,

If "his replacement" is Fultz or Ball I'm going to say 'no' he will not be ready in 2 years. PG is the hardest position to learn, the learning curve is steep, especially with the complexity of today's defensive schemes. How many point guards can we name who ended up being all-stars, much less HOFers, who were all-stars just 2 years after they were drafted? Magic. Cousy. Tiny. Lillard. DRose. Irving. Not John Wall (#1 pick). Not Steph Curry. Not D'Angelo Russell. Of the players who did Magic, Cousy and Tiny are HOFers. Neither Lillard nor Rose will be (in my opinion). Neither will Russell. Curry will, but it took him years to make an all-star game and he made it based upon his outrageous shooting and not his floor generalship, which has improved but wasn't that great early on. Irving made the all-star team but that's because LeBron wasn't on it, he was in Miami. Irving got all the minutes and touched the ball on virtually every possession, so he rang up the numbers.

If we gut this team, and I am about as disgusted with them as I can be right now, we are hitting a complete reset button and starting the 3-5 year rebuild from Day 1. We need changes. We need a board monster and we need an assassin. Is Zizic that board monster? Maybe, but I think we need more than that because Amir and Zeller will be gone, so we need TWO board monsters. Is Fultz/Ball that assassin? Probably not for the first two years, the game will be too fast for their brains.


bob


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by mulcogiseng on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:09 pm

I've been sayin all year this is a flawed roster. I'm sayin now there is no need to panic. Take a breath and relax a second. No need to blow it up now and start all over again. Next year is year 5 of the rebuild. We have the players in the wings who meet the needs of this team. We have a low post rebounder, rim protector, and scorer, we have a big who can get his own shot, take it to the rim, drain the 3, and we have a wing slasher who can hit from outside or take it to the hoop. We also have a top 3 pick in a good draft. This season's disappointment rests on Danny's shoulders for not having the right talent available for Brad. It also rests on Brad's shoulders for not utilizing his roster and maximizing the talent that he did have. Lose in the first round again and its a disappointment, not a setback. Certainly no reason to blow it up and start again. We are close, very close. We still need a piece or two and we have those guys in the wings. Let's give them a chance next year. It will still take an advantageous deal for Danny to pull the trigger. We don't need Melo or some other me first superstar. If we move part of the core it has to be for someone like Butler who showed last night what he can do. If someone needs to "stay the course" it's Danny not Phil IMO, of course.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:46 pm

Amazing how far Brad has taken a flawed team, IT is a spark plug on one end, he wasn't able to bother Rondo enough, even though we know Rondo is not a scorer. I question whether Amir is a starting PF on a contending team, whether KO is a first big off the bench for a contender, some people think bigs don't have to rebound anymore, I disagree, they first need some level of toughness to bang and board, then the other parts are gravy. I also question whether AB is a starting caliber shooting guard on a contender and Crowder too has had plenty of opportunities to make a play and instead has come up small.

Years ago I said Antoine Walker was a borderline all star that can just get us in the playoffs, but then will get his ass kicked by all the playoff PF's waiting for him at the next level like Duncan, KG, Jermaine O'Neal and even Kenyon Martin. Well we have a lot of those type of flawed players that play hard and have some value, but it could be proven right now that they are what they are and have limited improvement coming up and they are what they are.....and right now that core can't get us out of first round.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by kdp59 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:56 pm

bobheckler wrote:
kdp59 wrote:LOL...yes Bob I am off the rails a bit.

after reflecting a bit on my meltdown, I would rather send Horford back to the Hawks and take back Howard and his slightly smaller deal that has one year less on it. My only idea is to get Horford contract off our books faster somehow.

with IT, I am saying that he may be at his peak and after next year will want max dollars. If I can sell high I will, other wise let him walk for greener dollars after next year. I think his game has peaked and as he loses a half step , his game will show it.

our top draft pick should be his replacement in two years.



kdp,

If "his replacement" is Fultz or Ball I'm going to say 'no' he will not be ready in 2 years.  PG is the hardest position to learn, the learning curve is steep, especially with the complexity of today's defensive schemes.  How many point guards can we name who ended up being all-stars, much less HOFers, who were all-stars just 2 years after they were drafted?  Magic.  Cousy.  Tiny.  Lillard.  DRose.  Irving.  Not John Wall (#1 pick).  Not Steph Curry.  Not D'Angelo Russell.  Of the players who did Magic, Cousy and Tiny are HOFers.  Neither Lillard nor Rose will be (in my opinion).  Neither will Russell.  Curry will, but it took him years to make an all-star game and he made it based upon his outrageous shooting and not his floor generalship, which has improved but wasn't that great early on.  Irving made the all-star team but that's because LeBron wasn't on it, he was in Miami.  Irving got all the minutes and touched the ball on virtually every possession, so he rang up the numbers.

If we gut this team, and I am about as disgusted with them as I can be right now, we are hitting a complete reset button and starting the 3-5 year rebuild from Day 1.  We need changes.  We need a board monster and we need an assassin.  Is Zizic that board monster?  Maybe, but I think we need more than that because Amir and Zeller will be gone, so we need TWO board monsters.  Is Fultz/Ball that assassin?  Probably not for the first two years, the game will be too fast for their brains.


bob


.


I don't think this team is ready to compete to two years anyway. With Smart and Rozier we have other options to "run the offense" along with Fultz.

I just thing we now see this team is a very long way, as it;s built right now. I don;t think the 16th and 22nd picks form last years draft will fix our issues, sorry.

Fultz, Jackson or Ball May be a piece on the next championship team. we better hope that Brown and Smart are part of that team as well, or we will be a VERY long way off.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:30 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Amazing how far Brad has taken a flawed team, IT is a spark plug on one end, he wasn't able to bother Rondo enough, even though we know Rondo is not a scorer. I question whether Amir is a starting PF on a contending team, whether KO is a first big off the bench for a contender, some people think bigs don't have to rebound anymore, I disagree, they first need some level of toughness to bang and board, then the other parts are gravy. I also question whether AB is a starting caliber shooting guard on a contender and Crowder too has had plenty of opportunities to make a play and instead have come up small.

Years ago I said Antoine Walker was a borderline all star that can just get us in the playoffs, but then will get his ass kicked by all the playoff PF's waiting for him at the next level like Duncan, KG, Jermaine O'Neal and even Kenyon Martin. Well we have a lot of those type of flawed players that play hard and have some value, but it could be proven right now that they are what they are and have limited improvement coming up and they are what they are.....and right now that core can't get us out of first round.


Cowens,

The comment about "some people think bigs don't have to rebound anymore" was obviously directed at me.  So, let's address it.

They need a level of toughness to bang and board if they are near the boards.  If your job is to guard Mirotic, who is allergic to any paint that isn't out at the 3pt arc, then how will you be near the boards to grab a rebound?  Don't you have to be near the back board, regardless of how big you are, to grab a board?  Or do you think that no matter where you are on the court you need to get the rebound?  If you're in the corner with Mirotic, do you think you should get the rebound?  You can be as tough as titanium nails but if you're nowhere near the ball you will not get the rebound.  

Amir is not a girly-man, as you like to refer to Kelly, but he has been completely dominated by Robin Lopez this series-to-date.  Owned.  Does Amir lack toughness?  He has been down in the painted area the whole time since that's where his man, Lopez, was.  Same with Horford when he was guarding Lopez.  Lopez is down low, that's where his defender should be and that's where the ball will come off the boards.

Do you think that guards need to get the lion share of the assists too?  If so, then Bradley sucks.  Do you think Shooting Guards need to be big scorers to not suck?  Bradley was 5-15, 2-8 from 3.  

I don't think it's quite so cut-and-dried, not rebounding, not floor-generalship and not shooting roles.

Jimmy Butler had 8 rebounds.  Who did he beat/out-tough to the ball to get those?  Probably the player guarding him, right, the player whose job was to put a body on him?  Who was guarding him for most of the game?  Jae Crowder, who only had 3 rebounds himself.  Is Jae Crowder a girly-man?  If he was manned-up against Butler, why didn't he get the same number of boards/minute?

Mirotic had 7 rebounds, fewer than Butler, in 28 minutes.  Does that make him a girly-man?  Lopez and Butler were rebounding, he needed to box out, or, he had to stay with his man if his man was out at the arc.  Kelly was 2-4 from 3 last night.  He has his well-documented inconsistencies but last night he was hitting his shots inside (2-4) and outside (2-4).  


You are harping on rebounding but we did NOT lose this game because of rebounding.  They had 5 more defensive rebounds than us, 5, but the exact same number of offensive rebounds.  So they were NOT dominating us on the boards, we were just giving them more opportunities for defensive rebounds by shooting worse than them.  We lost this, in my opinion, because we were sloppy and had 16 TOs and they were sharp and they had 12 steals.  Steals are live balls, which create scoring opportunities.  Kelly had 7 assists and 1 TO.  7 assists, in 24 minutes, and only one TO even though he obviously touched the ball a lot.  So, he wasn't the problem as far as giving away points, or losing possessions without fgas, on TOs.

Who would Kelly be guarding?  Mirotic and Portis, most likely, unless it was a switch and if there was a switch then he'd be out at the arc guarding someone he shouldn't be guarding and nowhere near the boards.

Check out Mirotic and Portis' shot charts.  Mirotic took 13 fgas and 9 of them were 3pt fgas.  Where do you think any player defending him would be?  Portis took 1 fga, it was a 3pt fga.  Where do you think his defender was likely to be?  If he was where he was supposed to be, near his man, he was nowhere near the paint or the back board.

http://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400950321


I am FAR more concerned about Amir losing the muscle-tussle down low with Lopez than I am with the number of rebounds Kelly got since Kelly is unlikely while Amir's opportunity for rebounds is good.  Lopez got 8 rebounds, 5 of them offensive, 5 of their total of 11.  Who wasn't keeping him off the boards?  Not Kelly.


bob


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:42 pm

Sinus, the autopsy revealed no heart!

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:45 pm

bob you talk too much and are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I'll keep it really simple, KO has to go !!!! he sucks get it, got it.....good
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:48 pm

as bad as Amir has been, he defends 4-5's way better than girlie man !!!!!!!!
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by steve3344 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:51 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob you talk too much and are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I'll keep it really simple, KO has to go !!!! he sucks get it, got it.....good
KO regular season shooting %: .477
KO playoff shooting %: .395

KO rebounds per 36 minutes regular season: 8.2
KO rebounds per 36 minutes playoffs: 4.6

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:52 pm

theres always a key moment when KO gets lazy and doesn't even raise his hands/arms on a mid range or back to the basket shot, pathetic defensive player, if hes here next year Danny is an idiot !!!!!! it hurts my eyes watching this spasz play.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:53 pm

steve3344 wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:bob you talk too much and are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I'll keep it really simple, KO has to go !!!! he sucks get it, got it.....good
KO regular season shooting %: .477
KO playoff shooting %: .395

KO rebounds per 36 minutes regular season: 8.2
KO rebounds per 36 minutes playoffs: 4.6


thanks steve you confirmed my eyes weren't lying
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:56 pm

bob I find your constant praising of Kelly pathetic, he couldn't even make the Washington Generals better, you've lost it my friend.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

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