POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:08 pm

Easy guys easy, its only KO!

Lighten Up!

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by kdp59 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:48 am

well, since we're all testy now , here is a piece that should drive most of us over the edge!!

http://nypost.com/2017/04/20/carmelo-anthony-to-celtics-scenario-could-pick-up-steam/


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by Shamrock1000 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:44 am

steve3344 wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
mulcogiseng wrote:I've been sayin all year this is a flawed roster. I'm sayin now there is no need to panic. Take a breath and relax a second. No need to blow it up now and start all over again. Next year is year 5 of the rebuild. We have the players in the wings who meet the needs of this team. We have a low post rebounder, rim protector,  and scorer, we have a big who can get his own shot, take it to the rim, drain the 3, and we have a wing slasher who can hit from outside or take it to the hoop. We also have a top 3 pick in a good draft. This season's disappointment rests on Danny's shoulders for not having the right talent available for Brad. It also rests on Brad's shoulders for not utilizing his roster and maximizing the talent that he did have. Lose in the first round again and its a disappointment, not a setback. Certainly no reason to blow it up and start again. We are close, very close. We still need a piece or two and we have those guys in the wings. Let's give them a chance next year. It will still take an advantageous deal for Danny to pull the trigger. We don't need Melo or some other me first superstar. If we move part of the core it has to be for someone like Butler who showed last night what he can do. If someone needs to "stay the course" it's Danny not Phil IMO, of course.

Good, level-headed post. We may be lucky if this series goes 5 games, but that doesn't warrant "hitting the reset" button. Celtics overachieved a little in the regular season. They always played hard, and as a result they probably beat some more talented teams that were just taking a night off in the course of an 82 game season. This is apparent in their low overall point differential. Now, in the playoffs, every team is focused and plays hard, and our lack of talent is catching up. All that being said, developing a 50 win team is not trivial. Danny did it quickly, so maybe some folks think its easy to do. Its not. The same shitty teams are in the lottery year after year, never getting any better even though they are getting high draft picks. Everyone knew this team was not really ready to contend. Everyone knew we are one or two players away. This series doesn't change that, it only reinforces what we all knew. We are still a player or two away. Don't forget that other than Amir and Al, everyone on the Celtics is probably on the upslope of their career arc. Amir is probably toast, but Al can still be a key piece of a contending team for another year or two. I see no sign that IT has "lost a step" or that he is slowing down. He will average mid 20s again next year, and probably be even craftier. The point is, most guys will probably be a little better next year. BUT, they are still a player or two away. Danny knows this. Brad knows it. Wyc knows it. I'm sure all the guys on the team know it (though they wouldn't say it outloud). The Patriots built their dyansty by putting out the best team they can every year. I'm sure Belichik doesn't expect to win every year, but he maximizes his chances, and knows the value of being in the conversation each year. It can lead to players wanting to get on that train. Also, in some years luck will help push a contender to be a champion. Maximize your chances but putting out a team that only needs a little luck/fortune. Spurs have a similar model. My guess is that this is what Danny and Brad envision, and I think that's the way to go. Are they there yet? Obviously not. Are they closer than most teams in the NBA? Probably. I for one hope they don't "hit the reset", but rather gnore this unfortunate but understandable blip of a playoff round and continue this remarkable rebuild.
"We may be lucky if this series goes 5 games."

We MAY be lucky??  We'd be so incredibly lucky to be going home for a game 5 after winning two games in Chicago that it doesn't even seem possible, based on how we were manhandled twice in Boston. To have a slightly above average center like Robin Lopez dominate our bigs in both games was a real eye-opener.

Uhm, we only have to get one in chicago to get a game 5...

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:39 am

KDP 59

Ya just read it in the NY Post this morning then saw your post.  

I think Danny is best served by waiting and having the Knicks buyout Anthony's contract.  $25 million is way too much for him at this stage of his career - why - family issues that can mentally affect his game - knee issues that can affect his play and playing time i.e # of games played - and will he be a good locker room teammate or will he try to take over the locker room.  I do not think IT  would be too please with that scenario and could disrupt the team.

Getting back to the large contract of $25 million, if Anthony is signed by Danny, Danny now has problems filling other more important positions must fill other positions - PF position with the departure of Johnson or a center with Horford sliding to PF and a back up serviceable center - Zeller cannot cut it when you are playing PLAYOFF BB.

I will say this, let the Knicks buy him out and give him a 2 year deal at $12 - 14 million, I can live with that. The Knicks as so desperate to unload CA they will do anything to get rid of him. Patient Patient Patient...let Phil blink and buy him out....don't just provide him a gift by taking a $25 M salary and giving them Crowder as well. Crowder ia the type of guy you want coming off the bench - giving you defense and scoring. You give him up...now you have to replace him and CA is not Crowders replacement especially when it comes to defense.

Going back to the center position, I know that some are going to say, but we have Zizic...........remember he will be a rookie and needs to learn the game on an NBA level.  Further, Danny needs to acquire better bench players then what he has now with KO, Jerebko and Zeller.

Zizic and the Dancing Bear will be good additions and are young, but they are rookies.  If we get Fultz then we have redundancy at that position, so Rozier could be packaged with draft picks in a trade.

If I was Danny, patients is the key to #18, we are 2 years of having our day in the sun.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:54 am

112288 wrote:KDP 59

Ya just read it in the NY Post this morning then saw your post.  

I think Danny is best served by waiting and having the Knicks buyout Anthony's contract.  $25 million is way too much for him at this stage of his career - why - family issues that can mentally affect his game - knee issues that can affect his play and playing time i.e # of games played - and will he be a good locker room teammate or will he try to take over the locker room.  I do not think IT  would be too please with that scenario and could disrupt the team.

Getting back to the large contract of $25 million, if signed Danny must fill other positions that are very important - PF position with the departure of Johnson or a center with Horford sliding to PF.

I will say this, let the Knicks buy him out and give him a 2 year deal at $12 - 14 million, I can live with that.

I know that some are going to say, but we have Zizic...........remember he will be a rookie and needs to learn the game on an NBA level.  Further, Danny needs to acquire better bench players then what he has now with KO, Jerebko and Zeller. We need a serviceable center who can really provide minutes- Zeller is not that guy.

Zizic and the Dancing Bear will be good additions and are young, but they are rookies.  If we get Fultz then we have redundancy at that position so Rozier could be packaged in a trade.

If I was Danny, patients is the key to #18, we are 2 years of having our day in the sun.

112288


112288,

Carmelo Anthony plays 3, so he wouldn't be taking minutes away from Zizic.  If we're taking a center from the Knicks I wouldn't mind Kyle O'Quinn.

If Danny does not trade the pick we are almost certainly going to lose a starter by next season.  Based upon their performance playoffs-to-date I am just fine with that, sad to say.

Fultz (6'4" guard), Ball (6'6" guard), Jackson (6'8" wing), Tatum (6'8" wing) are the most highly touted draft targets.  If we pick one of the guards then why do we need IT AND Bradley AND Smart AND Rozier?  If we take one of the wings why would we need Crowder AND Brown?  We're going to have a #3 pick and a no-worse-than #4 pick coming off the bench and backing up Crowder?  The first player over 6'8" that's projected by draftexpress is Markonnen @ #7.  A replacement for Kelly?  Perhaps, I don't watch college sports so I'm not the one to answer that, but that's the first non-redundant pick in this draft.  So we either trade the pick or we trade one of our players and Danny isn't going to move the needle much moving Rozier and Danny is all about moving the needle. That makes saying goodbye to IT or Bradley or Smart a bit more likely, as Danny swings for the fences.


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:08 am

Bob,

I do not think I said CA would take minutes from Zizic...I know he is a center and CA a SF, what I mean......CA would take $$$$$$ money way from cap space which has to be used to fill in with meaningful bench or starting players.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by sinus007 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:16 am

kdp59 wrote:well, since we're all testy now , here is a piece that should drive most of us over the edge!!

http://nypost.com/2017/04/20/carmelo-anthony-to-celtics-scenario-could-pick-up-steam/



kdp,
be careful...
affraid affraid affraid

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:18 am

112288 wrote:Bob,

I do not think I said CA would take minutes from Zizic...I know he is a center and CA a SF, what I mean......CA would take $$$$$$ money way from cap space which has to be used to fill in with meaningful bench or starting players.

112288

112288


112288,

Oops. Sorry.


bob


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:22 am

Betcha Danny keeps Smart and trades Avery.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:23 am

Betcha Danny keeps Smart and trades Avery.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by kdp59 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:30 am

LOL..I saw the article, nothing but rehashed rumor to be honest. But I thought since we;re all a bit testy , that article alone with the pic of Melo in green would send some of us over the edge completely!!!


I guess my wife is right.....I am a $hit stirrer ....LOL

I don't want him either and IF I am spending $20M or more on a new player I am going hard after Ibaka. he is the best big man Free agent out there this off-season.

much to my chagrine, Danny ios NOT going to admit signing Horford was a mistake, So pairing him with a big man who can block some shots and rebound is needed. They are going to be hard to find , as most big men Free agents that meet that criteria as Restricted Free agents this year.

I still want Bradley moved for another big man as well, but I don't think his expiring deal will get us anything more than a back up big to be honest. IF Denver would give us Faried for Bradley, I would do that deal. he and Ibaka would change up our big men rotation next year along with Horford.

Amir , Kelly and Jerebko would all be gone then.

Jaylen needs to be put in the starting lineup at SF from day one next year.

IT, Smart, Nets pick and Rozier should be more than enough at guard, with Bradley gone.

10th man would come from Yabusle, Zizic, Zeller.

with Nader, Jackson and Mickey (or another minimum wage type) filling out that roster.

not a blow up, one FA and one trade.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by tjmakz on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:51 am

I can't see a situation where New York waives Carmelo with $54m left on his contract.
I do think he has played his last game in NY.
There will be takers for his contract.
He should be able to score 20 ppg over the next 2 years.
I could even see a team like Philly taking on Carmelo's contract for 2 years.
Philly and Sacramento will each have tens of millions of dollars to spend to get to the league minimum salary.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by atcross on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:01 pm

I don't post here often. I prefer to bow to the regulars who clearly know more about the game and players than I do. But I must say I think there's a bit of an overreaction here. Stevens said before the playoffs that the Cs weren't as good as their record. Their point margin testifies to the thin ice they've skated on all year. Their winning the top seed was clearly a fluke of the Eastern Conf and other teams' dysfunction. And if you were following the Bulls at all you saw that they had begun to play the way their roster suggested they could. Rondo is still the best floor "general" in the league. He led the league in assists last year. That's not something a hasbeen does. Chicago management was playing head games with itself on the PG position all year and only recently realized those kids would not be starting PGs like RR anytime soon. And it took a while for Butler and Wade to figure out that if they just let RR run the show they would get open looks. Bottom line is the Bull's starting line up is better than the Cs. But now the news is in that RR is out with a broken thumb. That was the key to everything the Bulls were doing right and it's a major blow to them reproducing anything like their play in the first two games. Butler and Wade will revert to hero ball and if they aren't hitting then panic will set in. So it ain't necessarily over. IT will have a much easier time without RR out there reading his mind. IT was clearly emotionally exhausted in the last game. Hopefully he will be able to get back closer to his old self in game 3.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:27 pm

TJ,

No Team ever waives a player and eats a full significant contract of that proportion.........it is negotiated by both sides where CA has to give up something in order to get his GET OUT OF JAIL CARD, and the Knicks give to move on and not be stuck for 2 years with a player they clearly do not want nor fits into the overall team strategy.

The last year is a player option that will be discounted down significantly. CA would not pick up his option next year with the way each party feels for each other and if CA wants a title he is forced to leave and forced to lose that size contract. CA wants a title despite what he says publicly ....if he does not....I don't want a player like that on my team.

Look for a settlement to be $ 30 - 35M range which the Knicks would gladly do, they have the cash to do it.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by tjmakz on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:48 pm

112288 wrote:TJ,

No Team ever waives a player and eats a full significant contract of that proportion.........it is negotiated by both sides where CA has to give up something in order to get his GET OUT OF JAIL CARD, and the Knicks give to move on and not be stuck for 2 years with a player they clearly do not want nor fits into the overall team strategy.

The last year is a player option that will be discounted down significantly. CA would not pick up his option next year with the way each party feels for each other and if CA wants a title he is forced to leave and forced to lose that size contract.  CA wants a title despite what he says publicly ....if he does not....I don't want a player like that on my team.

Look for a settlement to be $ 30 - 35M range which the Knicks would gladly do, they have the cash to do it.

112288

I disagree with your theory about Carmelo.
Carmelo is no longer a $20m/year player.
Why wouldn't he take the full amount owed to him over the last 2 years?
There's no way I expect him to walk away from a guaranteed $20m-$25m dollars.
There is no reason at all for NY to waive him.
Other teams that could use a veteran would probably take his contract on.
I would think Philly, Brooklyn, Sacramento and Orlando would take his contract for a top 55 protected draft pick.
If Carmelo wants to win a title, maybe he would give up a few million dollars, but there's not many teams who are title contenders.
If Carmelo is waived, I would think he would want to sign with GS, Cle, SA or maybe Houston.
Carmelo is still a really good NBA player.
I expect he's a wanted player by a number of other teams.
Phil made a mistake recently by throwing him under the bus.
Now Phil needs to find him a new home.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:41 pm

TJ

First > He wants to win an NBA Title that is why he will wants out.

Second > You keep using the word waive.....it is not a waive but a buy out of a legal contractual obligation when two parties are mutually in agreement that they do not want to be engaged with one another any more > simple contract law.

As to Anthony not taking a hit financially > he gets a buy out for $35 Million which is $20 short of his original contract including players option. He signs a $12 - $15 million dollar 2 year contract and he is now ahead of his original 2 year deal.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:42 pm

bb


Last edited by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:42 pm

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by tjmakz on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:54 pm

112288,

We will have to agree to disagree.
I just don't think NY will eat $35m or needs to buy out Carmelo.
If Carmelo is bought out and wants to play for GS or Cleveland next year, it will have to be at the veteran minimum as those two teams are far over the salary cap.
He is still a very good player whose services could be used by a number of other teams.
We will have to see how it plays out.
My money is on that he is traded and not waived or bought out.
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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by 112288 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:07 pm

TJ

I see your point but I do believe NY will buy him out as they have the money and they need to move on with players who fit their system Triangle verse isolation which CA likes.

That is why Boston is a fit for CA as they can pay him in the range that I stated so that satisfies AC and he has a shot at a title. For Boston it is a cheap 2 year fix to a glaring problem....no go to sniper.

But good points you raise.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by gyso on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:13 pm

tj,

Carmelo has the no-trade contract and wants to win.
He has no incentive to go to a loser team and could block such a trade.
You listed Philly, Brooklyn, Sacramento and Orlando, all basically loser teams.

Who as a contender has the cap flexibility to take on his contract in a trade?

I certainly do not want him on the Celtics, but I just wanted to to ask.

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by Shamrock1000 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:25 pm

atcross wrote:I don't post here often. I prefer to bow to the regulars who clearly know more about the game and players than I do. But I must say I think there's a bit of an overreaction here. Stevens said before the playoffs that the Cs weren't as good as their record. Their point margin testifies to the thin ice they've skated on all year. Their winning the top seed was clearly a fluke of the Eastern Conf and other teams' dysfunction. And if you were following the Bulls at all you saw that they had begun to play the way their roster suggested they could. Rondo is still the best floor "general" in the league. He led the league in assists last year. That's not something a hasbeen does. Chicago management was playing head games with itself on the PG position all year and only recently realized those kids would not be starting PGs like RR anytime soon. And it took a while for Butler and Wade to figure out that if they just let RR run the show they would get open looks. Bottom line is the Bull's starting line up is better than the Cs. But now the news is in that RR is out with a broken thumb. That was the key to everything the Bulls were doing right and it's a major blow to them reproducing anything like their play in the first two games. Butler and Wade will revert to hero ball and if they aren't hitting then panic will set in. So it ain't necessarily over. IT will have a much easier time without RR out there reading his mind. IT was clearly emotionally exhausted in the last game. Hopefully he will be able to get back closer to his old self in game 3.  

We'll thought out, reasoned post. Post more often...

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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by bobheckler on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:09 pm

atcross wrote:I don't post here often. I prefer to bow to the regulars who clearly know more about the game and players than I do. But I must say I think there's a bit of an overreaction here. Stevens said before the playoffs that the Cs weren't as good as their record. Their point margin testifies to the thin ice they've skated on all year. Their winning the top seed was clearly a fluke of the Eastern Conf and other teams' dysfunction. And if you were following the Bulls at all you saw that they had begun to play the way their roster suggested they could. Rondo is still the best floor "general" in the league. He led the league in assists last year. That's not something a hasbeen does. Chicago management was playing head games with itself on the PG position all year and only recently realized those kids would not be starting PGs like RR anytime soon. And it took a while for Butler and Wade to figure out that if they just let RR run the show they would get open looks. Bottom line is the Bull's starting line up is better than the Cs. But now the news is in that RR is out with a broken thumb. That was the key to everything the Bulls were doing right and it's a major blow to them reproducing anything like their play in the first two games. Butler and Wade will revert to hero ball and if they aren't hitting then panic will set in. So it ain't necessarily over. IT will have a much easier time without RR out there reading his mind. IT was clearly emotionally exhausted in the last game. Hopefully he will be able to get back closer to his old self in game 3.  


AT,

I agree with everything shamrock said. A very well thought out piece and post more often. You're doing yourself proud.


bob


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Re: POST GAME CHICAGO - HOME - PLAYOFF SERIES #2 > THE AUTOPSY

Post by NYCelt on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:03 pm

Atcross,

You've got it right. It was a different Bulls team tonight with Rondo out. Rondo is among the most productive point guards in the league and near the top in some key categories in playoff history.

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