Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

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Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by bobheckler on Sat May 13, 2017 2:04 pm

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/05/boston_celtics_draft_rumors_20_1.html



Boston Celtics draft rumors 2017: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)



Updated on May 13, 2017 at 12:26 PM Posted on May 13, 2017 at 12:18 PM




Danny Ainge, President of Basketball Operations for the Boston Celtics, attends the NBA draft basketball combine Thursday, May 11, 2017, in Chicago. (AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast)





BY TOM WESTERHOLM



On the surface, the Boston Celtics look like an excellent franchise for a 2017 NBA draft prospect to join: Players can compete on a playoff team right away and immediately be part of a winning culture.

But according to ESPN's Chad Ford, some agents are considering holding their prospects from individual workouts with two teams: The Sacramento Kings and the Celtics.

The reasons for avoiding the Kings are obvious -- Sacramento has a dysfunctional franchise and a front office that can't seem to pull itself together (one of Ford's sources said it would be "malpractice" to let his client workout for the Kings). But why the Celtics?

According to Ford, prospects might prefer a more stable situation than Boston -- an opportunity to start immediately (which they might not be afforded by the Celtics' deep roster), without the looming questions of a potential trade for an established star like Jimmy Butler or Paul George. One of Ford's agent sources said he has "deep respect for the Celtics" and that Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens might be the best GM and head coach in the league respectively, but that he would want to know the plan for the franchise before allowing his client to go to Boston.

It's true that the Celtics might be a more tenuous landing place for a prospect than the Phoenix Suns or the Orlando Magic, especially given their postseason success. Boston didn't trade for Butler or George at the trade deadline, which might indicate that they are more willing to build through the draft, but last year's No. 3 pick Jaylen Brown was never a focal point in the way that he likely would have been on a bad team. That doesn't seem to have stunted his growth, but DNP-CDs (or near DNP-CDs) in the first round of the postseason could be frustrating for some top prospects who are used to being stars.

But as Ford and his sources note, the Celtics have fantastic scouts who can pinpoint players they want without the benefit of individual workouts, if need be. If the Celtics get the first overall pick, Ainge won't pass on a prospect like Markelle Fultz just because he didn't get a one-on-one workout. Agents can try to direct their clients one way or the other, but by its nature, the draft gives prospects a very limited amount of power.

The Celtics are in an enviable position, but it's probably worth noting that for some young players, landing on Boston's already loaded roster isn't particularly appealing.




bob
MY NOTE:  Here's an example of Trader Danny's reputation preceding him and not being helpful.  Having said that, I think this is just nucking futs.  Don't compete?!  That's a message the agents want to send to players?  The difference in money between being the #4 pick and the #1 pick isn't that much but the pressure is MUCH less.  Furthermore, once you're drafted, nobody remembers your draft number when you have to hit a basket or grab a rebound OR when the time comes to sign a new contract.  D'Angelo Russell has gotten tons of minutes but there weren't a lot of solid nibbles for him when the Lakers dangled him as trade bait last year.  Why not?  Because he's getting a lot of minutes on a losing team and he isn't doing such a great job running it.  Michael Carter-Williams was ROY and got tons of minutes as a starter on Philly.  Now he's coming off the bench for Milwaukee, and who are their guards he has to take a back seat to?  He can't start with The Freak and share point guard duties with him?  Emmanuel Mudiay.  Plenty of minutes for him too but he's having less of an impact on his club than Smart is having on the Celtics even though they are playing almost the same number of minutes because Smart is playing with better players and they are helping in his development and advancement.

Many, many moons ago I used to fence (foil and saber) as a pastime.  My teacher was a former foil US Olympian.  He used to say "correct practice doesn't make perfect, only correct practice makes perfect.  All practice just makes permanent, including the bad habits".  Playing on a losing team in a losing system teaches you losing.  Ask Sully what his one year in "Garnett University" was worth.  Ask Kelly Olynyk and Terry Rozier what it's like playing with, and competing against in practice everyday, 4x All-Star center Al Horford and All-Defense First Teamer Avery Bradley and playing for one of the best young player development coaches in the NBA.  Ask Jaylen and Terry what contributing to a playoff run is worth to them.  Hell, even James Young is soaking up good experience and learning from being on, and with, the team. And the odds of that experience happening for high draft picks with the Suns or with the aging Mavericks anytime soon is what...? Nil, or so damn thin I wouldn't want to have to slice it.

Lastly on this, what I consider to be, ludicrous idea by agents to withhold their players from work outs, is the whole idea of going somewhere that wants you.  Danny might draft your client and trade them to Chicago for Butler?  Doesn't that mean Chicago wants Fultz or Ball or whomever more than they want Butler?  Wouldn't that make your client a very valuable investment for them since they gave up a lot to get him and isn't that what you want for your client?

The bottom line, as this article says, is that it doesn't matter.  Danny will draft Fultz if that's who he wants.  Danny will draft Ball if that's who he wants, Levar or no Levar.   And if Danny wants to trade them (or someone else to make room and minutes for them) on draft day or later then that's what he'll do.  



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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by gyso on Sat May 13, 2017 3:48 pm

It seems like the agents are looking out for their own interests and not their clients.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by wideclyde on Sat May 13, 2017 7:12 pm

gyso,

The agent benefits more with the better contract a player gets. Every agent should want the Cs to draft 'his' kid due to the fact that the Cs have perhaps the first pick and no worse than the fourth pick.

An agent getting 10% of the first pick's salary will get nearly $3M over the course of that player's rookie contract.

I can only see keeping a kid from working out for the Cs as potentially very, very stupid.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by gyso on Sat May 13, 2017 8:03 pm

Wideclyde,

I was thinking that the other (non Celtics) top picks would get more playing time, better stats and then a better next contract.  That would net the agent much more than during the player's rookie contract.

gyso

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by wideclyde on Sat May 13, 2017 10:13 pm

That is a good point, gyso, but money up front may be better than waiting 5-8 years since not every high level draft pick has a long, successful NBA career. Injuries, wash outs, etc, etc have felled many young men, and agents don't make much when a guy is bouncing around in the bush leagues.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by NYCelt on Sat May 13, 2017 11:43 pm

So agents would hold their prospects back from landing on a team that's building into a title contender and from being a higher draft pick?

Where do I start with my total disbelief of this one?

Second newspaper article in as many threads not fit to wrap fish in.  Must be getting near draft time.
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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by bobheckler on Sat May 13, 2017 11:50 pm

NYCelt wrote:So agents would hold their prospects back from landing on a team that's building into a title contender and from being a higher draft pick?

Where do I start with my total disbelief of this one?

Second newspaper article in as many threads not fit to wrap fish in.  Must be getting near draft time.


NYCelt,

Depends upon how many days the fish hss been dead.


bob


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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by sinus007 on Sat May 13, 2017 11:54 pm

Hi,
Another possibility is someone who benefits from that is spreading the rumor.

AK
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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by dboss on Sun May 14, 2017 2:36 pm

One of the dumbest things I have read.

If Boston gets the #1 pick that pick gets #1 loot.  The agent would make more money as well.  Good players do not want to go to bad teams.  If players do not want to compete for minutes we do not want them.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun May 14, 2017 3:24 pm

dboss wrote:One of the dumbest things I have read.

If Boston gets the #1 pick that pick gets #1 loot.  The agent would make more money as well.  Good players do not want to go to bad teams.  If players do not want to compete for minutes we do not want them.

dboss


LIKE, exactly they can't compete, fock em!!!
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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun May 14, 2017 4:17 pm

So, a story like this indicates to me that agents are trying very hard to completely influence the draft. The power they feel they hold is unreal. Look at last year with Ben Simmons. He hardly worked out for anyone.

How does this affect the draft? These players have been watched by so many eyes over this last year that, if the Celtics wanted to draft a player who had not worked out for him, they would because they have probably seen the kid twenty times at least between scouting and film (which has become one of the most predominant aspects of following players)

So, trying to control as they might, they will not block the player from being drafted.
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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 15, 2017 9:58 am

We are so Celtic-centric on this board that I think we missed the other half of the story in this story:  the Excremental Kings.  Agents aren't just dissuading players from working out with the Celtics, according to this report, they are also dissuading them from working out for the Kings.  I just saw an update on this story that says agents are still doing it with the Kings and that the Kings have been trying to use the Draft Combine to push back against the "Anywhere but Sacramento" mentality.

Assuming the pingpong balls bounce the way they should the Celtics will get the #1 pick and the Kings will get #8.  In a draft this deep the #8 pick might still be very good and, if we get #3 or #4 then there isn't that much of a drop to #8, and they could even move up from there too.

Suppose Danny were to trade our pick for Sacramento's in exchange for Sacto's #8 plus Buddy Hield?  Or Ben McLemore?  Or Willie Cauley-Stein?  Who on Sacto would like to have and would think is a good filler for the difference between a #1-#4 and a #8 in a deep draft?

Suppose Danny traded the #1 pick plus players to Chicago or Indy for Butler and George and sent a quality player (e.g. Crowder, who would be replaced by Butler/George) for their #8, who might also be included in the Chicago/Indy trade in lieu of a player we'd rather keep?

Change in teams close some holes in their rosters but also open some since you can still only have 12 active players and 15 tops and there is a salary cap.  You have to be GSW or Cleveland to get elite quality bench players for veteran minimums or low $, like we did in 2008 with Posey, House and PJ Brown.

If Sacto cannot get quality draftees to work out for them, might that incent them to make a trade for an established player they might not otherwise consider?

What do you think?


bob


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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 15, 2017 10:19 am

bobheckler wrote:We are so Celtic-centric on this board that I think we missed the other half of the story in this story:  the Excremental Kings.  Agents aren't just dissuading players from working out with the Celtics, according to this report, they are also dissuading them from working out for the Kings.  I just saw an update on this story that says agents are still doing it with the Kings and that the Kings have been trying to use the Draft Combine to push back against the "Anywhere but Sacramento" mentality.

Assuming the pingpong balls bounce the way they should the Celtics will get the #1 pick and the Kings will get #8.  In a draft this deep the #8 pick might still be very good and, if we get #3 or #4 then there isn't that much of a drop to #8, and they could even move up from there too.

Suppose Danny were to trade our pick for Sacramento's in exchange for Sacto's #8 plus Buddy Hield?  Or Ben McLemore?  Or Willie Cauley-Stein?  Who on Sacto would like to have and would think is a good filler for the difference between a #1-#4 and a #8 in a deep draft?

Suppose Danny traded the #1 pick plus players to Chicago or Indy for Butler and George and sent a quality player (e.g. Crowder, who would be replaced by Butler/George) for their #8, who might also be included in the Chicago/Indy trade in lieu of a player we'd rather keep?

Change in teams close some holes in their rosters but also open some since you can still only have 12 active players and 15 tops and there is a salary cap.  You have to be GSW or Cleveland to get elite quality bench players for veteran minimums or low $, like we did in 2008 with Posey, House and PJ Brown.

If Sacto cannot get quality draftees to work out for them, might that incent them to make a trade for an established player they might not otherwise consider?

What do you think?


bob


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Btw, TJ, this scenario could also work for the Lakers, ESPECIALLY if they don't get to keep their pick because if falls out of the top 3.  They could trade Russell (if they think he isn't going to fulfill his draft day potential) or Randle or such for Sacto's #8.  I can definitely see Magic and Pelinka wanting to jettison some youth, which the Lakers are loaded with, for proven veterans. I don't see Sacto taking Deng or Mozgov.  Sorry.


bob


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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by dboss on Mon May 15, 2017 10:23 am

If Celts get #1 it will not be traded unless an allstar is coming back.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by NYCelt on Mon May 15, 2017 11:09 am

dboss wrote:If Celts get #1 it will not be traded unless an allstar is coming back.  

dboss

dboss,

Absolutely 100% agree.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by tjmakz on Mon May 15, 2017 11:46 am

bobheckler wrote:
bobheckler wrote:We are so Celtic-centric on this board that I think we missed the other half of the story in this story:  the Excremental Kings.  Agents aren't just dissuading players from working out with the Celtics, according to this report, they are also dissuading them from working out for the Kings.  I just saw an update on this story that says agents are still doing it with the Kings and that the Kings have been trying to use the Draft Combine to push back against the "Anywhere but Sacramento" mentality.

Assuming the pingpong balls bounce the way they should the Celtics will get the #1 pick and the Kings will get #8.  In a draft this deep the #8 pick might still be very good and, if we get #3 or #4 then there isn't that much of a drop to #8, and they could even move up from there too.

Suppose Danny were to trade our pick for Sacramento's in exchange for Sacto's #8 plus Buddy Hield?  Or Ben McLemore?  Or Willie Cauley-Stein?  Who on Sacto would like to have and would think is a good filler for the difference between a #1-#4 and a #8 in a deep draft?

Suppose Danny traded the #1 pick plus players to Chicago or Indy for Butler and George and sent a quality player (e.g. Crowder, who would be replaced by Butler/George) for their #8, who might also be included in the Chicago/Indy trade in lieu of a player we'd rather keep?

Change in teams close some holes in their rosters but also open some since you can still only have 12 active players and 15 tops and there is a salary cap.  You have to be GSW or Cleveland to get elite quality bench players for veteran minimums or low $, like we did in 2008 with Posey, House and PJ Brown.

If Sacto cannot get quality draftees to work out for them, might that incent them to make a trade for an established player they might not otherwise consider?

What do you think?


bob


.


Btw, TJ, this scenario could also work for the Lakers, ESPECIALLY if they don't get to keep their pick because if falls out of the top 3.  They could trade Russell (if they think he isn't going to fulfill his draft day potential) or Randle or such for Sacto's #8.  I can definitely see Magic and Pelinka wanting to jettison some youth, which the Lakers are loaded with, for proven veterans.  I don't see Sacto taking Deng or Mozgov.  Sorry.


bob


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Bob,

I could definitely see Sacramento trading one of their 2 lottery picks. (Their New Orleans pick is top 3 protected).
With Rudy Gay supposedly opting out, Sacramento could need to add $55m this year just to get to the team salary minimum.
I would consider Russell for the #8 pick. My son disagrees with me on this.
The lottery tomorrow night will provide much needed clarity for Celtics and Lakers fans.
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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by Shamrock1000 on Mon May 15, 2017 2:58 pm

dboss wrote:If Celts get #1 it will not be traded unless an allstar is coming back.  

dboss

Not just an allstar, would have to be a potentially transcendent player who is still on the upside of his career (think Anthony Davis, the Greef Freak, Westbrook) and those guys aren't going anywhere. If we get the #1, of course we are making the pick.

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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Mon May 15, 2017 3:22 pm

if by any chance we get thrown under the bus again, I can see a trade for anything lower than 2-3/ we do not have time for another Jaylen Brown wait and see project. Even I do think he is going to be a special player, waiting on another young player puts us in the rebuild process we thought we would be in 2 years ago. A upside veteran, one with years of productivity left in his career is what they would be looking to trade for.

Am i confusing? I basically saying the same thing as dboss. not just some player who won't last long here. No Melo, waster of time and money
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Re: Agents considering holding clients from workouts with Celtics (report)

Post by Shamrock1000 on Mon May 15, 2017 3:33 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:if by any chance we get thrown under the bus again, I can see a trade for anything lower than 2-3/ we do not have time for another Jaylen Brown wait and see project. Even I do think he is going to be a special player, waiting on another young player puts us in the rebuild process we thought we would be in 2 years ago.  A upside veteran, one with years of productivity left in his career is what they would be looking to trade for.

Am i confusing?  I basically saying the same thing as dboss. not just some player who won't last long here.  No Melo, waster of time and money

If we fall to 3 or 4, a trade is definitely a possibility. One point of view that I have yet to see articulated here is maybe next year is the year we go all in. Consider - 1) worst case scenario is we fell one win short of the ECF; 2) Other than Al, all important rotation players will be better (and Al will likely maintain); 3) for one more year, we will have one all star and one near-allstar signed for around 15 million combined. It is easy to imagine that adding one more allstar would put us in contention. If we had signed Durant, is there any doubt we would be contenders? The capologists can correct me, but I think we can sign a max-type player or absorb one in trade without giving up the core (IT, AB, JC, AH, MS, JB). After next year, IT and AB will reightfully want to get paid. Doesn't seem we could keep both and ad more talent. So maybe next year is the year to go all in - who knows when/if we will ever have the types of bargain contracts (and the flexibility they provide) IT and AB have. The sweetest part is that Danny could do this, and continue to "rebuild" by drafting this year and next and developing Yabu and Zizic.

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