Game 2 thoughts

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sat May 20, 2017 11:54 am

I really feel Thomas is going no where. I think the management loves him, he has given a "face" back to the organization that they lost when Pierce and Garnett. He produces, the fans love him and he has given back to the team and community ten fold. He is not a subject we should be considering. there are too many players who will be gone by july/september
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 11:57 am

Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:Rmbone

Jaylen Brown is not a SG.
His ball-handling is not that good.
In college, he was a slasher, someone who can overpower weaker defenders.

Nobody can beat Lebron now.
He's just too good right now.
All the Celts have to do is wait 2 more years.
By that time, Lebron will be on the decline.

I want Jae Crowder, Bradley, and the 2018 Nets picks, with protection, traded for Paul George.
That way the Celts will not need to go after Hayward.

How good is Avery's ball handling Fierce? In college Jaylen was a slasher, someone who can overpower weaker defenders? How many shooting guards in the NBA is Jaylen unable to overpower? Just about zero.

The Celtics were literally better with Jaylen starting at SG when Bradley was injured, than they were with Bradley starting. +1.7 vs +1.4. Jaylen even shot 40% from 3 as a starter.

They way to compensate for tiny IT's terrible defense isn't with a 6'2 SG, or even a 6'4 SG like Fultz. Jaylen has superstar SG written all over him.

That's why it's time for Bradley to go.
This year's playoffs has shown us that Bradley is not adequate.

Just because Bradley's ball handling is not every good, it doesn't mean we can also replace him with a not so good ball-handler in Jaylen Brown.

What we're doing right now is just rearranging the chairs, so to speak.
Ainge needs to get better chairs.

Bradley, Crowder, and the 2018 Nets pick, with protection for Paul George.
That's an upgrade!
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 11:58 am

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I really feel Thomas is going no where.  I think the management loves him, he has given a "face" back to the organization that they lost when Pierce and Garnett.  He produces, the fans love him and he has given back to the team and community ten fold. He is not a subject we should be considering. there are too many players who will be gone by july/september

True.

I just don't understand why some of the Celtic fans can't appreciate Isaiah Thomas.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sat May 20, 2017 12:00 pm

fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:Rmbone

I agree that Bradley has to go.
Fultz will replace Bradley.

But Celtics need Thomas.
Celts are just a lottery team without IT.

Fultz isn't even necessarily an upgrade over Bradley, because he's a defensive downgrade, and his good scoring with the ball in his hands can't be fully utilized with IT on the court.

Jaylen Brown though is a clear upgrade at SG over Bradley. 35 lbs stronger, 5 inches taller, more athletic, and not much of a drop off as a shooter. Better rebounder, and much better help defender against SFs, PFs, and Cs than little Avery.

You're putting too much emphasis on defense.
In the old NBA, you would be correct.
But the new NBA is more on schemes and help defense.

Just look at the Cavs.
Love and Kyrie are really not good defenders.
Only Shumpert is a good defender on the Cavs roster.

Let's just put it this way, a team of 5 Jae Crowders will not beat a team composed of 5 Gordon Haywards.

Jae Crowder is just a role player.
Celtics need stars.

Last night's Game 2 was an example of how stars dominate the NBA.
Lebron, Love, and Kyrie all scored 20 or more points.

Did you just pretend that LeBron isn't a good defender? And Kyrie isn't a good defender in the regular season, but he's a talented defender who steps it up in the playoffs.

It's a given that Lebron is a good defender.

I don't buy that argument that Kyrie is not a good defender in the regular season and he becomes a talented defender in the playoffs.
That's very subjective.

The point is the NBA of today does not require you to be a very good defender to win a championship.

Kyrie is a talented defender in the regular season too, duh. He just tries harder in the playoffs, like everybody else. Because you know, it's the playoffs.

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 12:04 pm

Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:Rmbone

I agree that Bradley has to go.
Fultz will replace Bradley.

But Celtics need Thomas.
Celts are just a lottery team without IT.

Fultz isn't even necessarily an upgrade over Bradley, because he's a defensive downgrade, and his good scoring with the ball in his hands can't be fully utilized with IT on the court.

Jaylen Brown though is a clear upgrade at SG over Bradley. 35 lbs stronger, 5 inches taller, more athletic, and not much of a drop off as a shooter. Better rebounder, and much better help defender against SFs, PFs, and Cs than little Avery.

You're putting too much emphasis on defense.
In the old NBA, you would be correct.
But the new NBA is more on schemes and help defense.

Just look at the Cavs.
Love and Kyrie are really not good defenders.
Only Shumpert is a good defender on the Cavs roster.

Let's just put it this way, a team of 5 Jae Crowders will not beat a team composed of 5 Gordon Haywards.

Jae Crowder is just a role player.
Celtics need stars.

Last night's Game 2 was an example of how stars dominate the NBA.
Lebron, Love, and Kyrie all scored 20 or more points.

Did you just pretend that LeBron isn't a good defender? And Kyrie isn't a good defender in the regular season, but he's a talented defender who steps it up in the playoffs.

It's a given that Lebron is a good defender.

I don't buy that argument that Kyrie is not a good defender in the regular season and he becomes a talented defender in the playoffs.
That's very subjective.

The point is the NBA of today does not require you to be a very good defender to win a championship.

Kyrie is a talented defender in the regular season too, duh. He just tries harder in the playoffs, like everybody else. Because you know, it's the playoffs.

I'm a big fan of Kyrie Irving, so you don't need to lecture me about what Kyrie can do.

When you ask NBA fans about Kyrie, defense is not the first thing that they will think of.

You don't agree that trading Bradley and Crowder for Paul George is a huge upgrade?
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sat May 20, 2017 12:16 pm

fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
fierce wrote:Rmbone

I agree that Bradley has to go.
Fultz will replace Bradley.

But Celtics need Thomas.
Celts are just a lottery team without IT.

Fultz isn't even necessarily an upgrade over Bradley, because he's a defensive downgrade, and his good scoring with the ball in his hands can't be fully utilized with IT on the court.

Jaylen Brown though is a clear upgrade at SG over Bradley. 35 lbs stronger, 5 inches taller, more athletic, and not much of a drop off as a shooter. Better rebounder, and much better help defender against SFs, PFs, and Cs than little Avery.

You're putting too much emphasis on defense.
In the old NBA, you would be correct.
But the new NBA is more on schemes and help defense.

Just look at the Cavs.
Love and Kyrie are really not good defenders.
Only Shumpert is a good defender on the Cavs roster.

Let's just put it this way, a team of 5 Jae Crowders will not beat a team composed of 5 Gordon Haywards.

Jae Crowder is just a role player.
Celtics need stars.

Last night's Game 2 was an example of how stars dominate the NBA.
Lebron, Love, and Kyrie all scored 20 or more points.

Did you just pretend that LeBron isn't a good defender? And Kyrie isn't a good defender in the regular season, but he's a talented defender who steps it up in the playoffs.

It's a given that Lebron is a good defender.

I don't buy that argument that Kyrie is not a good defender in the regular season and he becomes a talented defender in the playoffs.
That's very subjective.

The point is the NBA of today does not require you to be a very good defender to win a championship.

Kyrie is a talented defender in the regular season too, duh. He just tries harder in the playoffs, like everybody else. Because you know, it's the playoffs.

I'm a big fan of Kyrie Irving, so you don't need to lecture me about what Kyrie can do.

When you ask NBA fans about Kyrie, defense is not the first thing that they will think of.

You don't agree that trading Bradley and Crowder for Paul George is a huge upgrade?

I'm pretty sure you said throw in the 2018 Nets pick too. Crowder is a better defender than George these days. George is a bit of a diva, and he wouldn't co-exist well with IT because they both want/need the ball in their hands. And not only would he be a one year rental, but he'd cost triple what Crowder costs each year.

I want to sign Hayward, keep Crowder, draft Jackson, and see how things play out with IT and Bradley and Smart. Start IT/JB/Hayward/Crowder/Horford, with Smart/Bradley/Jackson/?/Zizic off the bench. Hopefullly Olynyk re-signs.

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 12:24 pm

Rmbone

Ainge is not stupid.
He will not trade for George unless they're convinced that George will stay in Boston long term.

I don't believe the Celts will want Hayward, Josh Jackson, Crowder, and Jaylen Brown all at once.

Celts only need Brown and Hayward.

Bradley and Crowder need to go.
Haven't you seen enough from last night?

It's time for an upgrade.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by swedeinestonia on Sat May 20, 2017 12:31 pm

If you can score at an elite level then for most parts you should be able to be a good defender (but not necessarily elite) by adding effort. Somebody with the quickness etc like Irving has the tools to play good defense but not necessarily the heart.

Problem with Thomas is that even if he tries very hard and for most parts can score he lacks the physical tools (size) to be a good defender and you try to hide him on defense but in the playoffs teams will exploit it. Vs some teams you can switch him off players but when you get deeper into the playoffs rosters become stacked with good players and you cant just hide players anymore.

I dont think he is overall good enough to be paid like a player of a big 3 unless one is very lucky and someone else is completely underpaid on the roster.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 12:36 pm

swedeinestonia wrote:If you can score at an elite level then for most parts you should be able to be a good defender (but not necessarily elite) by adding effort. Somebody with the quickness etc like Irving has the tools to play good defense but not necessarily the heart.

Problem with Thomas is that even if he tries very hard and for most parts can score he lacks the physical tools (size) to be a good defender and you try to hide him on defense but in the playoffs teams will exploit it. Vs some teams you can switch him off players but when you get deeper into the playoffs rosters become stacked with good players and you cant just hide players anymore.

I dont think he is overall good enough to be paid like a player of a big 3 unless one is very lucky and someone else is completely underpaid on the roster.

The question is are the Celts better off with or without Thomas?

Obviously the Celts are better off with IT.
Without IT, the Celts are just a lottery team trying to make it as an 8th or 7th seed.

Money is not an issue.
Celts are way below the tax line.
And it's not our money.

Celts are not yet ready to beat the Cavs or GSW.
Maybe in 2-3 years.

The solution is to keep IT and wait 2-3 years for Fultz, Brown, and the rest of the young Celtics to develop.
By 2019 or 2020, make IT the 6th man.
He will be very effective as a 6th man, just like in 2015.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by worcester on Sat May 20, 2017 1:09 pm

Rmbone, Once again I share your opinion.

"The Celtics were literally better with Jaylen starting at SG when Bradley was injured, than they were with Bradley starting. +1.7 vs +1.4. Jaylen even shot 40% from 3 as a starter.

They way to compensate for tiny IT's terrible defense isn't with a 6'2 SG, or even a 6'4 SG like Fultz. Jaylen has superstar SG written all over him."

My future lineup - Horford and Zizic at center, Kelly also at a low cost contract
Jaylen at SG with minutes at SF, backed up by Avery (short term) and Marcus
In 2018-19 - Fultz at PG backed up by Rozier and IT and Marcus
Hayward at SF sharing minutes with Jaylen and Jae
Horford at the 4 and 5 backed up by Kelly
Yabu sharing minutes at the 4 off the bench
IT coming off the bench
Role players like Nader, Green, etc.

Avery gone after next year replaced by the 2018 Nets pick

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by kdp59 on Sat May 20, 2017 1:59 pm

to be clear.

I was saying the only players I would build around are Jaylen , Smart and whoever Dannys picks with the top pick.

not saying he should dump or trade anyone else unless the deal makes sense. But I was also saying no one else on the current roster is worth a big money deal. that's my opinion.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by bobheckler on Sat May 20, 2017 2:07 pm

kdp59 wrote:to be clear.

I was saying the only players I would build around are Jaylen , Smart and whoever Dannys picks with the top pick.

not saying he should dump or trade  anyone else unless the deal makes sense. But I was also saying no one else on the current roster is worth a big money deal. that's my opinion.


kdp,

So, for you, the only untouchables on this team are Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart and this coming #1 pick. Everybody else can be had for the right price. Right?

I agree. Anybody who isn't on a rookie contract and looks like they haven't hit their ceiling (although an argument might be made that Smart has) should be in trade discussions. That doesn't mean give away All-League Second Teamer Isaiah Thomas for a song, nor give away Horford, but it doesn't hurt to talk. Rozier might not be untouchable, but he is less than halfway through his rookie contract and is showing good progress.

And if Danny takes Jackson or Tatum then Brown gets thrown into the conversation too, or they are trade bait, because then we have a lot of redundancy.



bob



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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sat May 20, 2017 2:16 pm

worcester wrote:Rmbone, Once again I share your opinion.

"The Celtics were literally better with Jaylen starting at SG when Bradley was injured, than they were with Bradley starting. +1.7 vs +1.4. Jaylen even shot 40% from 3 as a starter.

They way to compensate for tiny IT's terrible defense isn't with a 6'2 SG, or even a 6'4 SG like Fultz. Jaylen has superstar SG written all over him."

My future lineup - Horford and Zizic at center, Kelly also at a low cost contract
Jaylen at SG with minutes at SF, backed up by Avery (short term) and Marcus
In 2018-19 - Fultz at PG backed up by Rozier and IT and Marcus
Hayward at SF sharing minutes with Jaylen and Jae
Horford at the 4 and 5 backed up by Kelly
Yabu sharing minutes at the 4 off the bench
IT coming off the bench
Role players like Nader, Green, etc.

Avery gone after next year replaced by the 2018 Nets pick


The only problem with that rotation is IT won't accept coming off the bench. That problem will only get worse after he gets a huge contract, and as he gets older and even more of a defensive liability.


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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by worcester on Sat May 20, 2017 2:19 pm

IT comes off the bench in 2018-19.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sat May 20, 2017 2:24 pm

worcester wrote:IT comes off the bench in 2018-19.

Not here, not for 25-30 million. Not anywhere else either. Which means the team that gives him a huge contract has a ticking time bomb on their hands.

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by kdp59 on Sat May 20, 2017 2:39 pm

bobheckler wrote:
kdp59 wrote:to be clear.

I was saying the only players I would build around are Jaylen , Smart and whoever Dannys picks with the top pick.

not saying he should dump or trade  anyone else unless the deal makes sense. But I was also saying no one else on the current roster is worth a big money deal. that's my opinion.


kdp,

So, for you, the only untouchables on this team are Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart and this coming #1 pick.  Everybody else can be had for the right price.  Right?

I agree.  Anybody who isn't on a rookie contract and looks like they haven't hit their ceiling (although an argument might be made that Smart has) should be in trade discussions.  That doesn't mean give away All-League Second Teamer Isaiah Thomas for a song, nor give away Horford, but it doesn't hurt to talk.  Rozier might not be untouchable, but he is less than halfway through his rookie contract and is showing good progress.

And if Danny takes Jackson or Tatum then Brown gets thrown into the conversation too, or they are trade bait, because then we have a lot of redundancy.



bob



.

that's pretty much how I see it. No $20M plus deals for IT or Bradley, no long term deal over $10M for Kelly.

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by worcester on Sat May 20, 2017 2:41 pm

The Celts new GM Bob Heckler is not giving Isaiah $25-30 M. I already asked him about this.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by bobheckler on Sat May 20, 2017 3:14 pm

Ben Rohrbach @brohrbach
about 6 hours ago
At least the Celtics know they have to keep the pick, take Fultz and build for 4 years from now.
reply retweet like


bob


.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by bobheckler on Sat May 20, 2017 3:16 pm

worcester wrote:The Celts new GM Bob Heckler is not giving Isaiah $25-30 M. I already asked him about this.


For that job I might consider moving back to New England winters. If they moved the White House from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington D.C. to Boston, nope. Find yourself another Eskimo, Worcester.


bob


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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by worcester on Sat May 20, 2017 4:26 pm

Danny's coach could use some coaching. Brad had a mental meltdown and cracked under the pressure of Game 2. Sad. I bet though it'll be a big time learning experience for him, and he'll be abetter lineup manager henceforth.

Bob, if I had to live through another New England winter, I'd be woefully depressed. My hats off to all those hardy souls who pack the Garden, Gillette Stadium, and Fenway Park.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by gyso on Sat May 20, 2017 4:56 pm

bobheckler wrote:Ben Rohrbach @brohrbach
about 6 hours ago
At least the Celtics know they have to keep the pick, take Fultz and build for 4 years from now.
reply retweet like


bob
.

Add Fultz, plus add a good free agent (GH?), plus add our two Euros, shuffle the end of our bench and then add 2-4 wins to our total next season.  Compete for the first seed in the Eastern Conference and look for a better end to the season.

Each season better than the last.  Each season with a better, more enjoyable team to watch.  Each season learning more and more how to win in the playoffs.

There are more than 25 fan bases that would die for their team to be like that.  We have that.  I take great joy in that.  To each their own, I guess.

I live in Charlotte.  Who wants to be a fan of that team?  Dysfunction Junction.  I am glad to be a Celtics fan.  I am glad that we have a great bunch of owners who think long-term.  I am glad that we have a GM that suppresses his inner impatient child and holds out for the long-term.  Because that's what I think we are in for:

Long-term success.

[/rant]

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sat May 20, 2017 5:07 pm

worcester wrote:Danny's coach could use some coaching. Brad had a mental meltdown and cracked under the pressure of Game 2. Sad. I bet though it'll be  a big time learning experience for him, and he'll be  abetter lineup manager henceforth.

Bob, if I had to live through another New England winter, I'd be woefully depressed. My hats off to all those hardy souls who pack the Garden, Gillette Stadium, and Fenway Park.

I'm 4 hours north of Boston, and emerging from woeful depression for the next three months. Then it's back to the slow slide into The Shining.


Stephen King being from Maine probably had some real life inspiration for that book.

I've got to get out of here. Worcester, if I ever make it down your way let's celebrate with a beer or something. Bob, if I end up making my way out west, let's do the same.

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by swedeinestonia on Sat May 20, 2017 5:13 pm

fierce wrote:
swedeinestonia wrote:If you can score at an elite level then for most parts you should be able to be a good defender (but not necessarily elite) by adding effort. Somebody with the quickness etc like Irving has the tools to play good defense but not necessarily the heart.

Problem with Thomas is that even if he tries very hard and for most parts can score he lacks the physical tools (size) to be a good defender and you try to hide him on defense but in the playoffs teams will exploit it. Vs some teams you can switch him off players but when you get deeper into the playoffs rosters become stacked with good players and you cant just hide players anymore.

I dont think he is overall good enough to be paid like a player of a big 3 unless one is very lucky and someone else is completely underpaid on the roster.

The question is are the Celts better off with or without Thomas?

Obviously the Celts are better off with IT.
Without IT, the Celts are just a lottery team trying to make it as an 8th or 7th seed.

Money is not an issue.
Celts are way below the tax line.
And it's not our money.

Celts are not yet ready to beat the Cavs or GSW.
Maybe in 2-3 years.

The solution is to keep IT and wait 2-3 years for Fultz, Brown, and the rest of the young Celtics to develop.
By 2019 or 2020, make IT the 6th man.
He will be very effective as a 6th man, just like in 2015.

Thats somewhat flawed argument though. Are they better now with than without? Well yes, because there is no other point guard or high caliber scorer. My idea would be to trade him for a scorer but a different position balancing out the roster. Fultz (if picked) will be able to both score and play pg and be a better defender.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by gyso on Sat May 20, 2017 5:48 pm

Rmbone wrote:
worcester wrote:Danny's coach could use some coaching. Brad had a mental meltdown and cracked under the pressure of Game 2. Sad. I bet though it'll be  a big time learning experience for him, and he'll be  abetter lineup manager henceforth.

Bob, if I had to live through another New England winter, I'd be woefully depressed. My hats off to all those hardy souls who pack the Garden, Gillette Stadium, and Fenway Park.

I'm 4 hours north of Boston, and emerging from woeful depression for the next three months. Then it's back to the slow slide into The Shining.


Stephen King being from Maine probably had some real life inspiration for that book.

I've got to get out of here. Worcester, if I ever make it down your way let's celebrate with a beer or something. Bob, if I end up making my way out west, let's do the same.

I used to live about 5 hours north of Boston until three years ago. Central Maine, Dexter to be exact. I still own about ten acres there. Now I am in Charlotte and I do not miss the winters. I do miss the summers, though.

Where abouts do you live?

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sat May 20, 2017 6:06 pm

gyso wrote:
Rmbone wrote:
worcester wrote:Danny's coach could use some coaching. Brad had a mental meltdown and cracked under the pressure of Game 2. Sad. I bet though it'll be  a big time learning experience for him, and he'll be  abetter lineup manager henceforth.

Bob, if I had to live through another New England winter, I'd be woefully depressed. My hats off to all those hardy souls who pack the Garden, Gillette Stadium, and Fenway Park.

I'm 4 hours north of Boston, and emerging from woeful depression for the next three months. Then it's back to the slow slide into The Shining.


Stephen King being from Maine probably had some real life inspiration for that book.

I've got to get out of here. Worcester, if I ever make it down your way let's celebrate with a beer or something. Bob, if I end up making my way out west, let's do the same.

I used to live about 5 hours north of Boston until three years ago.  Central Maine, Dexter to be exact.  I still own about ten acres there.  Now I am in Charlotte and I do not miss the winters.  I do miss the summers, though.

Where abouts do you live?

gyso

VT.

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