Game 2 thoughts

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Ktronic1 on Sat May 20, 2017 8:44 pm

worcester wrote:Rmbone, Once again I share your opinion.

"The Celtics were literally better with Jaylen starting at SG when Bradley was injured, than they were with Bradley starting. +1.7 vs +1.4. Jaylen even shot 40% from 3 as a starter.

They way to compensate for tiny IT's terrible defense isn't with a 6'2 SG, or even a 6'4 SG like Fultz. Jaylen has superstar SG written all over him."

My future lineup - Horford and Zizic at center, Kelly also at a low cost contract
Jaylen at SG with minutes at SF, backed up by Avery (short term) and Marcus
In 2018-19 - Fultz at PG backed up by Rozier and IT and Marcus
Hayward at SF sharing minutes with Jaylen and Jae
Horford at the 4 and 5 backed up by Kelly
Yabu sharing minutes at the 4 off the bench
IT coming off the bench
Role players like Nader, Green, etc.

Avery gone after next year replaced by the 2018 Nets pick

. I'd love to coach against you!
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 10:26 pm

swedeinestonia wrote:
fierce wrote:
swedeinestonia wrote:If you can score at an elite level then for most parts you should be able to be a good defender (but not necessarily elite) by adding effort. Somebody with the quickness etc like Irving has the tools to play good defense but not necessarily the heart.

Problem with Thomas is that even if he tries very hard and for most parts can score he lacks the physical tools (size) to be a good defender and you try to hide him on defense but in the playoffs teams will exploit it. Vs some teams you can switch him off players but when you get deeper into the playoffs rosters become stacked with good players and you cant just hide players anymore.

I dont think he is overall good enough to be paid like a player of a big 3 unless one is very lucky and someone else is completely underpaid on the roster.

The question is are the Celts better off with or without Thomas?

Obviously the Celts are better off with IT.
Without IT, the Celts are just a lottery team trying to make it as an 8th or 7th seed.

Money is not an issue.
Celts are way below the tax line.
And it's not our money.

Celts are not yet ready to beat the Cavs or GSW.
Maybe in 2-3 years.

The solution is to keep IT and wait 2-3 years for Fultz, Brown, and the rest of the young Celtics to develop.
By 2019 or 2020, make IT the 6th man.
He will be very effective as a 6th man, just like in 2015.

Thats somewhat flawed argument though. Are they better now with than without? Well yes, because there is no other point guard or high caliber scorer. My idea would be to trade him for a scorer but a different position balancing out the roster. Fultz (if picked) will be able to both score and play pg and be a better defender.

The real life NBA is not like Playstation or Xbox.
You have to factor in team chemistry and continuity.

It doesn't mean that when you replace your scorer with another scorer, the results will be the same or better.
Thomas and the Celtics are a good match, that's why it works.

An example is the Houston Rockets when Dwight Howard was with them.
Rockets are better without Howard.
On paper it looked like adding Howard would make the Rockets better.

Same with the Lakers when they had Howard, Nash, Pau Gasol, and Kobe.
It didn't work out even when the talent was superior.

Reason why the Celts were this good this season is because the team had great chemistry.
The players liked playing with each other.
It's just unfortunate that the Celts reached their limit.
The Cavs are just on a different level.

Thomas will come off the bench in the future.
He will get old, right?

Saying that he will not agree to come off the bench is just an opinion of a Celtic fan that might not like IT.
Does anyone here actually know IT in person?
Did anyone here talk personally to IT and was told by IT that he will not come off the bench?


Last edited by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sat May 20, 2017 10:34 pm

The last time the Celts won a championship, the Celts had one of the highest payrolls in the league.

Why should we be concerned about money?
It's not our money.

Look at the Cavs, they're going to pay around 160m in total salaries and luxury tax.
On the business side they're not making money.
But on the basketball court, they're champs.

OKC tried to lowball James Harden and OKC ended up going to the finals to not making the finals and eventually losing Durant too.

If we want the Celtics to win a championship, money should not be an issue.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by bobheckler on Sun May 21, 2017 12:43 am

Tom Halzack @TomHalzack
about 46 minutes ago
W/o Isaiah Thomas Cs are essentially a .500 team (at best). So that's what the Cavs will be playing now.
reply retweet like



bob
MY NOTE:  If this is true then that's another reason why some players must go.  We cannot be a team where the difference between competing and not is one player.  If Jae or AB or fill_in_the_blank aren't elevating the team...This does not diminish the importance of chemistry , I think it was fierce who provided a few solid examples (saying any team with Dwight Howard would have covered the waterfront), but this team isn't a jigsaw puzzle where there is one and only one piece that fits with another.  Damny has done  a magnificent job of drafting and signing players who bring the right chemistry.  He can do it again, or we get another Bogans, cull him from the herd and move forward with the good apples. I don't think I could have mixed any more metaphors than I just did.


.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by fierce on Sun May 21, 2017 1:29 am

AB had 3 years to prove that he belonged as a starter.
Unfortunately AB is not adequate as a starting SG.
Right now he's still a very good player but he's due for a big pay day.
Celts are better off trading him and let Fultz start at SG.

Jae Crowder is a very good role player with very cap friendly contract.
But the Celts are reportedly all in for Hayward in free-agency.
If that's the case then Crowder will be redundant because the Celts already have Jaylen and Hayward.

Celts really need an upgrade if the Celts want to be on the same level as the Cavs and GSW.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by kdp59 on Sun May 21, 2017 9:02 am

no team will pay a guy $20M or more to be the 6th man, sorry.

I like IT, I like his heart, his grit, everything. But he will always become a liability against good defenses , just the way I see it.

and all the talk about it not being my money, doesn't mean it isn't someones money.

Paying the luxury tax to keep a team that just won a championship is one thing. doing it for a flawed team is another ( and foolish IMO).

IT and Bradley are not worth $20M in today's NBA...I like them both but sorry. Thomas has said the team better back up the brinks trunk for his next deal and Bradley was/is unhappy at the last contract he signed. SO they are both not going to give the Celtics a big discount to re-sign.

Kelly is not worth $10M or more. If he wants to stay in the $8M range, perhaps.

no need to chase good money on flawed players, IMO.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by worcester on Sun May 21, 2017 9:45 am

I would pay IT big money on a long term contract with the big money on the front end and less on the back end, which would accommodate our younger players who in 4-5 years will need big contracts of their own. Ok, pay Isaiah $25M for 2017-18, then $20M for 2018-19, then $15M for each of the final 3 years of his contract. That would be $90M total or an average of $18M. He may go for it, and 25 mpg would be good use and value for Isaiah, with more minutes in 2017-19 and less thereafter. I like him and want to keep him, but at the right price.
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by dboss on Sun May 21, 2017 10:44 am

Sure is a lot of finger pointing going on.

Perhaps the magnitude of the current beat down at the hands of the Cavs has stimulated the backlash from Celtics fans.

This team made it to the ECF!

We are going up against the World Champions who just happen to be led by arguably one of the greatest basketball players who ever laced up his sneakers.

Our deficiencies as a team have been well documented.  Our front line does not have the horses to match up with the Cavs.  And we do not have enough fire power off the bench to be competitive.  Our so called genius coach is blind in one eye and as result lame ass post game comments only talk about the shots that were missed.

Our offensive engine led by an undersized PG is not healthy.  Our rotation has been inconsistent.  And the coaching looks confused. In this series the only bright spot has been the play of Jaylen Brown.

Let the record show that AB is leading this team in scoring at 17 per game through two games. Our go to guy is not averaging double figures.  The guy with the game 7 extraordinary game is still quite ordinary.  Let the record show that both Crowder and Smart are playing hard and doing exactly what we would expect them to do.

Let the record show that AH struggles against the Cavs because he is a PF playing center and we do not have any other frontline player to account for himself.

Let the record show that Brad Stevens does not have a clue on how to coach the defensive side of the ball.  

I expect this team to fight to the bitter end.

Go Celtics!

dboss
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by worcester on Sun May 21, 2017 12:47 pm

All good points Dboss. Let the record also show that Isaiah has been playing hurt which adversely impacted his production. In any event we need more than IT and a 17 ppg Avery as scorers. Jaylen is a bright spot, and we need other new talent on board to make the jump to the next level.

Agree 100% ..dboss
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun May 21, 2017 3:10 pm

This has been a terrific year to be a Celtics fan. They won more, went further, shot higher, made us yell louder, and rejoice more than we have done in the last few years since Pierce, Garnett, and Allen left. So let's enjoy what we can, and savor what few moments that may be left of this season.

Second guessing will get NO where. Enjoy the game tonight, A wonderful lady would say: IT IS WHAT IT IS!!!!!!
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by kdp59 on Sun May 21, 2017 3:44 pm

Let the record show that Max contract Horford is playing against as Cav's team with a 6-9 center in Thompson....so, if he can't outplay a 6-9 PF playing center, whats the difference?

come on man.

I am quite certain that you understand that hieght is not the issue with respect to AH and you are totally missing the point.

Which is.....We do NOT have a reliable 2nd big.

Come on man !

dboss
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sun May 21, 2017 5:24 pm

+/- Per game over a full season is a pretty good measure of a player's impact on the team. But it's best to compare starters to starters, and bench players to bench players.

So Avery Bradley was our least impactful starter, while Jae Crowder was our best. Marcus Smart was our most impactful bench player, followed by Jerebko, KO, and Gerald Green. Jaylen gets a pass because he was a rookie, and as a starter his +/- was actually +1.7, which is excellent.

People always lump Crowder in with Bradley, but Bradley's defense is very overrated, as is his actual impact on winning.

1 Jae Crowder 4.8
2 Isaiah Thomas 3.6
3 Al Horford 3.2
4 Amir Johnson 2.6
5 Marcus Smart 1.6
6 Avery Bradley 1.3
7 Jonas Jerebko 0.5
8 Kelly Olynyk 0.2
9 Gerald Green 0.2
10 Demetrius Jackson 0.2
11 Tyler Zeller 0.0
12 Terry Rozier -0.2
13 James Young -1.3
14 Jaylen Brown -1.6
15 Jordan Mickey -2.3

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Rmbone on Sun May 21, 2017 5:32 pm

Here are the +/- per game numbers for the playoffs. Because the sample size is smaller, these numbers are less reliable, but they still give us a good picture of who is making what kind of impact. Again, it's best to compare bench players to bench players, and starters to starters.

Our bench has been our strength in these playoffs, and we see some young guys who really stepped up in the playoffs, like Rozier and Jaylen.

Among starters, we once again see Avery Bradley around the bottom, and Crowder at the top. Amir's impact has also dropped off a cliff in the playoffs:

1 Terry Rozier +5.7
2 Jordan Mickey 4.0
3 Kelly Olynyk 1.6
4 Marcus Smart 0.4
5 James Young 0.2
6 Jae Crowder 0.1
7 Jaylen Brown -0.1
8 Isaiah Thomas -1.0
9 Jonas Jerebko -1.4
10 Tyler Zeller -1.5
11 Al Horford-1.7
12 Gerald Green -1.8
13 Avery Bradley -2.3
14 Amir Johnson -3.4

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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by dboss on Sun May 21, 2017 8:41 pm

Rmbone wrote:+/- Per game over a full season is a pretty good measure of a player's impact on the team. But it's best to compare starters to starters, and bench players to bench players.

So Avery Bradley was our least impactful starter, while Jae Crowder was our best. Marcus Smart was our most impactful bench player, followed by Jerebko, KO, and Gerald Green. Jaylen gets a pass because he was a rookie, and as a starter his +/- was actually +1.7, which is excellent.

People always lump Crowder in with Bradley, but Bradley's defense is very overrated, as is his actual impact on winning.

1 Jae Crowder 4.8
2 Isaiah Thomas 3.6
3 Al Horford 3.2
4 Amir Johnson 2.6
5 Marcus Smart 1.6
6 Avery Bradley 1.3
7 Jonas Jerebko 0.5
8 Kelly Olynyk 0.2
9 Gerald Green 0.2
10 Demetrius Jackson 0.2
11 Tyler Zeller 0.0
12 Terry Rozier -0.2
13 James Young -1.3
14 Jaylen Brown -1.6
15 Jordan Mickey -2.3

AB defense is NOT OVERATED.

DBOSS
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

Post by Ktronic1 on Sun May 21, 2017 8:54 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:This has been a terrific year to be a Celtics fan. They won more, went further, shot higher, made us yell louder, and rejoice more than we have done in the last few years since Pierce, Garnett, and Allen left.  So let's enjoy what we can, and savor what few moments that may be left of this season.  

Second guessing will get NO where.  Enjoy the game tonight, A wonderful lady would say: IT IS WHAT IT IS!!!!!!

And watch 5 replays of game 7 Celts/Wizards like I have!
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Re: Game 2 thoughts

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