some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by red16russ11 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:39 pm

bobheckler wrote:
kdp59 wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:Well, I have two trade ideas.  Crowder and #1 to PHI for Saric and #3 (I'd consider Okafor).  If PHI takes Ball, LAL takes Jackson, we still get Fultz.  If PHI takes Fultz and LAL takes Ball, we get Jackson.

My second trade has #1 and Crowder going to NYK for Porzingas and #8.  If they insist we take Melo, then we wait until July, move Melo to LAC, with Redick and Crowder going to NYK, and we get Porzingas and whoever they took at #8.


A swap will Philly has been talked about here but wouldn't Philly be looking more for Guard help? Saric is an upgrade over Kelly, so does that mean we let Kelly walk as a RFA?  and what happens on draft day, if Philly Takes Fultz and Lakers take Jackson? would we pick Ball or look to Tatum or Fox instead?

I am one who thinks Porzingas is going nowhere. Not even for the top pick. Jackson may have mental deficits but he's not totally nuts.


I agree with kdp. I think the only possible way of getting Porzingis, and even then this is only a slight possibility, is if we take Melo too.

And we'd have to give up AB and Crowder too. Crowder alone wouldn't cut it. Certainly not if we have to take Melo too because then we're looking at salary matching problems. According to the ESPN trade machine, this deal works from a salary matching perspective:

Bradley + Crowder + Olynyk (sign-and-trade $12-$15M/year) = Melo + Porzingis.

I'm not saying Phil would take that deal, I'm sure he'd want picks too, but from a pure salary matching perspective this flies.


Another deal that could work, if I understood this a little better, might be:

Celtics get Porzingis from NYK, JJ Redick and Jamal Crawford from Clippers
Knicks get Bradley, Crowder, Kelly
Clippers get Melo.

Once again, this deal does not include draft picks. Also, Clippers are over their cap limit by $1.4M, so maybe a player trade exception could make it work...?

Still a helluva long shot, but there is no way I see Jackson giving up Porzingis without someone taking Melo, and even then maybe not. At least, in this scenario, Phil unloads an albatross, goes much younger and gets two starters and a key bench player from the #1 team in the EC.


bob


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I proposed the exact same trade on another site, with one problem. We can't do a sign and trade with Kelly. Melo to LAC, Redick, Crowder and Wesley Johnson to NYK, and a pick next year, we get Porzingas and keep #1.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by bobheckler on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:10 pm

red16russ11 wrote:
bobheckler wrote:
kdp59 wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:Well, I have two trade ideas.  Crowder and #1 to PHI for Saric and #3 (I'd consider Okafor).  If PHI takes Ball, LAL takes Jackson, we still get Fultz.  If PHI takes Fultz and LAL takes Ball, we get Jackson.

My second trade has #1 and Crowder going to NYK for Porzingas and #8.  If they insist we take Melo, then we wait until July, move Melo to LAC, with Redick and Crowder going to NYK, and we get Porzingas and whoever they took at #8.


A swap will Philly has been talked about here but wouldn't Philly be looking more for Guard help? Saric is an upgrade over Kelly, so does that mean we let Kelly walk as a RFA?  and what happens on draft day, if Philly Takes Fultz and Lakers take Jackson? would we pick Ball or look to Tatum or Fox instead?

I am one who thinks Porzingas is going nowhere. Not even for the top pick. Jackson may have mental deficits but he's not totally nuts.


I agree with kdp.  I think the only possible way of getting Porzingis, and even then this is only a slight possibility, is if we take Melo too.

And we'd have to give up AB and Crowder too.  Crowder alone wouldn't cut it.  Certainly not if we have to take Melo too because then we're looking at salary matching problems.  According to the ESPN trade machine, this deal works from a salary matching perspective:

Bradley + Crowder + Olynyk (sign-and-trade $12-$15M/year) = Melo + Porzingis.

I'm not saying Phil would take that deal, I'm sure he'd want picks too, but from a pure salary matching perspective this flies.


Another deal that could work, if I understood this a little better, might be:

Celtics get Porzingis from NYK, JJ Redick and Jamal Crawford from Clippers
Knicks get Bradley, Crowder, Kelly
Clippers get Melo.

Once again, this deal does not include draft picks.  Also, Clippers are over their cap limit by $1.4M, so maybe a player trade exception could make it work...?

Still a helluva long shot, but there is no way I see Jackson giving up Porzingis without someone taking Melo, and even then maybe not.  At least, in this scenario, Phil unloads an albatross, goes much younger and gets two starters and a key bench player from the #1 team in the EC.


bob


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I proposed the exact same trade on another site, with one problem.  We can't do a sign and trade with Kelly.  Melo to LAC, Redick, Crowder and Wesley Johnson to NYK, and a  pick next year, we get Porzingas and keep #1.  


Red,

Why can't we do a sign-and-trade with Kelly?  

Here's the link to the NBA .pdf of the CBA.  http://www.nba.com/media/CBA101.pdf

And here is the part about sign-and-trades.  I think we're cool on the conditions.

Sign-and-Trades. Teams are prohibited from signing a free agent pursuant to an agreement that
the player will later be traded to another team unless the free agent being signed is the team’s own
free agent. In addition, these “sign-and-trades” are permitted only if (i) the contract is for three or
four years, (ii) the first year of the contract is fully guaranteed, (iii) the contract is entered into
prior to the first day of the regular season, and (iv) the player finished the prior season on his prior
team’s roster. The maximum annual salary increases for a sign-and-trade are 4.5% of the salary in
the first year of the contract. A team may only acquire a free agent via a sign-and-trade if the
team’s Team Salary post-transaction and at all times thereafter during tthat Salary Cap Year does
not exceed the Tax Level plus $4 million (see Section I.F.3 above).


The Knicks' salary next year, assuming no change, will be $77M (plus a few million more for their draftee). that seems to be below the tax level. We sign Kelly to a 3-4 year deal with the understanding that if he signs it he's going to NY and this is done over the summer before next season.


bob


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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by red16russ11 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:42 pm

Bob - I think it has to do with KO being restricted. Once he signs an offer sheet with someone other than us, he is no longer eligible for S and T. All we can do is match.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by bobheckler on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:46 pm

red16russ11 wrote:Bob - I think it has to do with KO being restricted.  Once he signs an offer sheet with someone other than us, he is no longer eligible for S and T.  All we can do is match.


Red,

Yep, that is a condition. It won't work if someone offers him $20M, because Phil won't go for that (I think) and so Kelly will sign the offer sheet. If, however, the numbers are all close then it could happen if Kelly is willing to go to NY.

This deal could be all negotiated by July 1st or whenever the free agent signing moratorium to be up. All teed up and ready to go.


bob


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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by Ktronic1 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:11 pm

bobheckler wrote:
kdp59 wrote:just some , the season has ended and waiting for the draft thoughts on a holiday weekend for me here.

having the top pick in any draft means you should get a player to build around long term. But the top players in this years draft don't exactly fit the needs we have right now. We need an upgrade over the aging Amir Johnson up front and another go-to scorer ( though we may very well have him on our roster now in Jaylen).

with that in mind, I give to you two trade options using the top pick.

#1) Danny pulls a Red and makes a Parish deal like Bob had suggested in another thread earlier. He trades #1 pick to Phily for #3 pick and Okafor. This is almost exactly the GS/Bos trade that got Parish and McHale here. IF Danny thinks as Highly of J. Jackson as Rambone does here, he might jump at making this deal. We get a young big man to replace Amir and Danny still gets his rookie in Jackson or Tatum or Fox or Monk.

#2) The Kings reportedly would jump at the chance to draft Fultz. so Danny takes their call and brings back the #5 and #10 pick along with W. Cauley-Stein for the #1 pick overall. Danny takes one of the Kentucky guards  at #5 (some say Fox will end being the best PG from this draft) and adds Texas Big man Jarrett Allen at #10. With the addition of Zizic also this off-season, we are now a much bigger team inside, with youth. Zeller's $8M will be allowed to move off the cap freeing up space easier for that near max player.

add your own trade ideas, if you would even consider them.


kdp,

#1)  I've soured on Okafor, mostly because of his defense but also because he has zero offense outside of 5-8'.  That makes him no different than Pekovic, who never was going very far.  Having said that I think that every player is mere putty on Brad Stevens' wheel and Jahlil could develop into something.  We should also remember that Okafor was being shopped when Philly still had Noel.  Now that Noel is gone they aren't overloaded with bigs anymore and he might not be as available.

#2)  I don't know much about Fox and others, so I can't say.

Here's a thought:  Maybe Philly doesn't want Fultz.  Maybe they want Ball.  Ball has said he'd work out for them, so he's amenable to playing there, and they'll know what they're getting.  So, maybe we draft Ball for them, and do the trade as you describe it or some other acceptable version of it.  LA then has to decide whether they want Fultz or Jackson.  They really don't have a quality, young SF.  Clarkson can't play 3, neither can Randle.  I suppose Ingram is the SF but he's such a string bean.  So, the question they are facing is "are they done with Russell, and do they think Ingram can turn into the KD2 they thought he could become?".  I don't know, I don't think they are ready to make a decision on Ingram yet.  My point in this is that if LA likes Jackson more than Fultz, for whatever reason, then we could end up with Fultz (#3 instead of #1) and whoever comes with the trade.  If Philly is in love with Ball and believes LA will take him with #2, they might go for that.  LA could take Fultz with #2 and then we'd get Jackson with #3.

Just a few Memorial Day thoughts.


bob


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Hmm. I agree with you when it comes to Okafor, I see Josh Jackson as a dupilcate of what we already have in Jalen Brown. I would love to see Willy Cauley-Stein in Green!
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by tjmakz on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:21 pm

This mock draft with trades is probably the worst piece of garbage that I have read so far.
They have the #1, #3 and #5 picks being traded.
Here's the Boston trade proposal:

Trade: Boston sends No. 1 overall pick in 2017, both of their second-rounders this year as well as a 2019 first-round pick (which had been acquired from the Clippers), and Amir Johnson to Indiana for Paul George and Al Jefferson.
Why not just go for it? The Celtics came as close as they were going to come with their current roster at unseating LeBron's Cavs atop the East – in other words, not particularly close at all. Getting Paul George from the Pacers and trying to sign him to a long-term deal is the ultimate win-now move. This trade assumes that George shows interest in staying with Boston and not just in hopping on the first train to Los Angeles, and that Gordon Hayward stays put in Utah instead of heading to Boston. It helps that the Pacers are throwing in someone who can shore up the Celtics' post play in Al Jefferson.

As for the Pacers? They get to start their rebuild on the back of Fultz, one of the most dynamic guards to come into the NBA in years. They'll get a couple more potential assets in the deal, too, which should turbo-charge a rebuild. As for Amir Johnson? The Celtics convince the Pacers to take his $12 million salary off their hands.


1) Boston has (3) 2nd rounders, not 2.
2) Amir Johnson is not under contract for next season.
3) Unless this trade is made on 7/1 or after, the trade does not work because Boston would be acquiring $29m.
4) Boston is not trading the #1 pick unless they are guaranteed the player will re-sign with them. I would be surprised if Paul George agreed to sign with anyone this summer.


They also have Philly trading the #3 AND Okafor for the #5 and McLemore.
Huh?
McLemore stinks and is a restricted free agent.
Philly would not trade Okafor for McLemore straight up.
Then they would also have to give up the #3 to get the #5?
What terrible trade proposals.



http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-mock-draft-celtics-give-up-top-pick-for-paul-george-76ers-deal-daaron-fox/
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by kdp59 on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:46 pm

wheres the liNK?

i HAVE to see that mock draft.

never mind I saw it....duhhhhhhhhhhh..... lol!

I was shocked to is from CBS sports as they are usually decent....then I read the beginning:

Mock drafts should be fun. Look man – I understand the desire to know what is most likely to happen on draft night. But I'm just as interested in the wacky scenarios that could happen on these utterly predictable of nights.
So for this mock draft, I'm taking a different route than your typical mock draft. What if NBA teams get insanely trade-happy on June 22, and tons of draft-night trades throw off even the best-laid of our mock-draft plans?


Last edited by kdp59 on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by dboss on Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:50 pm

TJ

I agree. I like the part about the Paces taking Amir's $12 million contract off our hands.

Dboss
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by steve3344 on Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:21 pm

http://www.celticsblog.com/2017/6/1/15727568/trades-ideas-top-pick-boston-celtics-nba-draft

"Try not to focus on the fact that we drafted Kelly Olynyk instead of the Greek Freak. Ok, too late. Sorry about that. Maybe we should just move on."

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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by red16russ11 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:23 am

dboss wrote:TJ

I agree.  I like the part about the Paces taking Amir's $12 million contract off our hands.

Dboss

Amir's contract is already off our hands. He's unrestricted. He's gone. He's played his last game in green.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by kdp59 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:26 am

red16russ11 wrote:
dboss wrote:TJ

I agree.  I like the part about the Paces taking Amir's $12 million contract off our hands.

Dboss

Amir's contract is already off our hands.  He's unrestricted.  He's gone.  He's played his last game in green.

as they say, never say never.

I could see Amir back here next year...but only as a back up at the mid-level exception salary or LESS.

Looks like Toronto may want him back on the same terms also.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by dboss on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:28 am

red16russ11 wrote:
dboss wrote:TJ

I agree.  I like the part about the Paces taking Amir's $12 million contract off our hands.

Dboss

Amir's contract is already off our hands.  He's unrestricted.  He's gone.  He's played his last game in green.

Red. This we know. I just found it amusing.

Dboss
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by bobheckler on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:49 am

According to multiple league sources there is, apparently, some mutual interest between Toronto and Amir hooking up again.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-free-agency-rumors-predictions-2017-amir-johnson-raptors-celtics-contract-details/1ayx5zu36ptx81jnncgbjngbuq?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


The Raptor's payroll in 2016-2017 was $108M.  That was with Lowry and Ibaka both at about $12M each.  Their minimum salary next year will be $77M and that does not include Lowry, Ibaka, Patrick Patterson ($6.05M) or PJ Tucker ($5.3M).  Both Ibaka and Lowry will get significantly more than that and Patterson and Tucker probably won't get less, certainly not a lot less.  How Toronto can fit Amir in I don't understand.  I don't think, with a payroll that far into the luxury tax, that they even get the full mid-level exemption, I think they only get the mini-exemption which is around $3M.  If either Lowry or Ibaka leave then there's tons of room for Amir, but that would be a huge setback for Toronto and I know Toronto is pulling out all the stops to re-sign Lowry.  If Toronto really wants Amir back, and he won't work for the mini-exemption, don't be surprised if we see a sign-and-trade with Toronto to clear out some salary for Amir, maybe Patterson or Tucker.  I realize there are implications from taking salary on but Danny isn't the type to let Amir go for nothing if he can get something of value that he can keep or flip. We have seen him do that too many times not to have that in the back of our minds.


bob


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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by dboss on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:02 am

DA let Turner and Sully walk for nothing because he wanted the salary relief.

Amir may be plan "B" for them because they may lose Ibaka to free agency. For all we know DA may have Serge on his short list. If the Raptors want to keep Lowry they are going to have to pay big dough.

That will limit the amount they can offer Ibaka.

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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by worcester on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:23 am

DA let Turner walk because he was unwilling to throw ridiculous amounts of cash at him.

Most interesting comment on this thread so far is that the Celts have the Clippers #1 pick in 2019. That I predict could be a huge deal. Clips may be a lottery pick with an aging Chris Paul, an injured or gone Blake Griffin, and a missing Redick. Doc hasn't proven his chops as a GM or as a coach who can rebuild.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:37 am

worcester wrote:DA let Turner walk because he was unwilling to throw ridiculous amounts of cash at him.

Most interesting comment on this thread so far is that the Celts have the Clippers #1 pick in 2019. That I predict could be a huge deal. Clips may be a lottery pick with an aging Chris Paul, an injured or gone Blake Griffin, and a missing Redick.  Doc hasn't proven his chops as a GM or as a coach who can rebuild.

Another great move, I think Paul knows he can't win with this team and bolts to SA, forgot we had this pick.....YES !!!!
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by worcester on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:43 am

Paul in SA would make for one very serious team. Plus help our 2019 draft pick. Go to Texas Chris. Remeber the Alamo.

http://deadspin.com/report-chris-paul-might-be-serious-about-this-whole-sa-1795769740
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by tjmakz on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:44 am

worcester wrote:DA let Turner walk because he was unwilling to throw ridiculous amounts of cash at him.

Most interesting comment on this thread so far is that the Celts have the Clippers #1 pick in 2019. That I predict could be a huge deal. Clips may be a lottery pick with an aging Chris Paul, an injured or gone Blake Griffin, and a missing Redick.  Doc hasn't proven his chops as a GM or as a coach who can rebuild.

The Clippers 2019 1st round pick to Boston is lottery protected.
Boston will get that pick in 2019 if it's in the 15-30 range.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by worcester on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:48 am

TJ, you just ruined my day.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by tjmakz on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:52 am

This shows the protection on that pick.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/los-angeles-clippers-team-salary/
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:53 am

Fock!!!
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:55 am

So if they are in lottery that year, what would we get?
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by worcester on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:06 pm

I think a second round pick in 2020..
Here's an interesting set of stats re the CEltics from that website -

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by tjmakz on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:14 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:So if they are in lottery that year, what would we get?

It's lottery protected thru 2020.
If not conveyed to Boston by 2020, Boston will get the Clippers 2022 2nd round pick.
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Re: some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

Post by bobheckler on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:15 pm

worcester wrote:DA let Turner walk because he was unwilling to throw ridiculous amounts of cash at him.

Most interesting comment on this thread so far is that the Celts have the Clippers #1 pick in 2019. That I predict could be a huge deal. Clips may be a lottery pick with an aging Chris Paul, an injured or gone Blake Griffin, and a missing Redick.  Doc hasn't proven his chops as a GM or as a coach who can rebuild.


worcester,

Good thoughts.

CP3 turned 32 in May.  In 2019 he'll be a 34 year old point guard.  Not that old, but certainly no spring chicken and much more breakable.  He has a player option for $24M next year.  Does he pick it up or try free agency?  Either way, Doc either has to pay to keep him this year and for the next 4 years or pay him a year later when he is an unrestricted free agent.  If he loses CP3 he is screwed because he has no other point guard on tap.

Blake Griffin is only 28 years old, will be 30 in 2019, but only played 61 games last year, 35 the year before that and 67 the year before that.  His production/minute is still excellent, the question is "how many minutes are left in him, especially in the same season?"  He has a player option for next year for $21M.  Does he pick it up or try free agency?  Either way Doc is in the same situation with Griffin as he is with CP3.  He is at their mercy since they are last year player options.  Unless they agree to extensions they will be hard to trade without a promise to re-sign with the new team is pretty solid.

Jamal Crawford is 37 years old now and is under contract for the next two years, through 2019, for $14.5M/year.  WTF was Doc thinking offering a contract that long to a player that old?

Brice Johnson, Diamond Stone (not his half brother Balsa Wood) and Austin Rivers is Doc's "youth movement".

I think he would kill for Fultz right now, especially with Redick being 32 and a free agent.  For Griffin?  Not unless Fultz significantly underwhelms Danny and Brad in workouts and even then I'd say no.  Fultz has better trade value than that even if Danny ultimately decides not to keep him.

Doc left Boston because he didn't want to go through another rebuild.  Fair enough, I would think that one/career is plenty and he already went through one with us (Phil Jackson is going through his rebuild late in his career and he is failing at it miserably, far worse than Doc did with his even before KG and Ray arrived).  Doc's weakness is that he loves veterans too much.  Swish has repeatedly pointed out that young teams don't win championships, teams with grizzled veterans with thousand yard stares with some seasoned youth do, and that's largely true.  There comes a point, however, when it's time to move the agenda forward.  If Doc cuts ties with Griffin, like I'm sure Danny would love for him to do, then he has a chance to stay relevant in 2019.  If he hangs on for another year or two then he's going for a fall, but we don't want him to fall too hard or far. This pick we are getting from them is 1-14 protected, so we cannot get a lottery pick out of it.  We want LAC to have the 15th best/worst regular season record.

GSW will be dominant for years, Curry and Thompson and even KD are all in their primes.  Houston is still pretty young and D'Antoni is an uptempo styled coach so he'll be always looking for young legs.  Pop is Pop.  Minny has more talent than almost anybody else, it's just young, but it won't be young in 2 years, not with Thibs riding them.  He'll age them quick!  Like every time they blow a defensive assignment.  LOL.  My point is that he will make the playoffs but his ability to go deep into the playoffs in the WC will still be hard for the next 2 years and that will make it hard for him to stock his team with young, developing talent.

Like Danny is doing for us.



bob


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