GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

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GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:21 am

Cleveland shot 45% on the game, and took 100 fgas.  Cleveland had 15 steals and GSW only had 5.  Cleveland only had 9 TOs while GSW had 20.  20 turnovers and was a -10 with steals and they won by 19 points with 132 points.  So this wasn't a blow out because of stifling defense or sloppy ball handling by Cleveland or even quick hands by GSW.  GSW shot 51.7% and 42% from 3 and had 11 fewer fgas.  This game was won with high efficiency offense, especially from the outside.

Zaza played 13 minutes and Javale McGee played 3.  That's 16 minutes by centers at the center position.  That is a ton of smallball and it worked.  On their side Tristan Thompson only played 21 minutes and Frye 4.  That's only 25 minutes at the center position for Cleveland.  Why did Cleveland only play Thompson 21 minutes when he was wearing us out in our series?  Because he isn't quick enough to defend against GSW.  

The more I watched this game, and this series, I am coming to these conclusions:

1.  The difference between GSW and everybody else is like the bright vs dark side of the moon.  Cleveland crushed us in a few games and they just got blown out 2x in a row, and they are fully healthy.  It might be a different story in Cleveland, but so far...

2.  In today's NBA, good offense beats good defense.  As a result, I am salivating more and more over Markelle Fultz, defensive warts and all.  He can shoot, from anywhere and this series, as well as the Cle-Bos one, shows that makes a difference between advancing or not.  This does not mean that Jackson and others cannot shoot, sure they can, but Fultz has a scorer's mentality.  That's what I'm talking about.  He's not a defender who can score, like Jaylen, Fultz thinks score first.  If we can hide IT and his defense on a starting unit then it should be even easier with 6'4" Fultz.  They had LBJ, Kyrie and Love scoring from everywhere.  We had IT (injured, admittedly), Horford and then the rest.  GSW has Curry, Thompson (who still had a quiet 20 last night) and KD and has defensive wings/swings in Iggy and Green.  Which are the more successful teams?  The ones with more scorers who can go off and drop 30 on you if they are on.

In the movie The Graduate, Dustin Hoffman is at a party and someone pulls him aside and says "I've got one word for you...PLASTICS!".  Well, the word in today's NBA is "scoring", not "defense".  They have taken away the hard foul with the way they call flagrant fouls.  The "no layup" axiom has been banned.  No hand checking.  The league is doing everything it can to protect their valuable assets and to give the fan more scoring.  Antoine Walker was asked why he took so many 3s.  He answered "because there are no 4s".  We need more scorers.  We all know we need a scorer, we've beaten that to death, but these last two series made it crystal.  GSW outrebounded Cleveland last night 59-45 and they did that with their two true bigs, Zaza and McGee, playing limited minutes.  You don't need bigs to rebound in this league, not even at the elite level of competition the Finals are.  You need rebounders.  Last night Durant had 13 and Curry had 10.  This is why I'm thinking our top priorities should be a scorer (Fultz?) and then rebounders and rim protectors.  


Here's Steph Curry putting LeBron into the blender:

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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by tjmakz on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:52 am

Bob,

That play by Curry vs. Lebron was clearly a double dribble.
Watch the video below.

The Warriors are unstoppable.
29-1 in their last 30 games.
Lebron is playing incredibly, even though Cleveland is getting thumped.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/watch-steph-currys-insane-sequence-on-lebron-in-game-2-actually-a-double-dribble/
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:58 am

tjmakz wrote:Bob,

That play by Curry vs. Lebron was clearly a double dribble.
Watch the video below.

The Warriors are unstoppable.
29-1 in their last 30 games.
Lebron is playing incredibly, even though Cleveland is getting thumped.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/watch-steph-currys-insane-sequence-on-lebron-in-game-2-actually-a-double-dribble/



TJ,

Good one. Yeah, that was a double-dribble, but only if you get caught.

What, exactly were the refs looking at?



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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by tjmakz on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:07 am

This is a side point, but I think the league needs to take a look at the continuation rule.
Some have said this could be reviewed this summer by the competition committee.
You are supposed to go to the free line when you are fouled in the act of shooting.
As what has happened many times in the NBA over the last year or two, way too many players are looking for contact, then shooting the ball instead of dribbling, which gets them to the FT line.
Curry was not shooting the ball from almost half court when he was fouled.
He was fouled, then shot the ball.
Too many bogus FT attempts are given out because the players have learned to exploit the continuation rule.
Referees never used to give a player free throws when they shoot the ball from half court after getting fouled.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:29 am

tjmakz wrote:This is a side point, but I think the league needs to take a look at the continuation rule.
Some have said this could be reviewed this summer by the competition committee.
You are supposed to go to the free line when you are fouled in the act of shooting.
As what has happened many times in the NBA over the last year or two, way too many players are looking for contact, then shooting the ball instead of dribbling, which gets them to the FT line.
Curry was not shooting the ball from almost half court when he was fouled.
He was fouled, then shot the ball.
Too many bogus FT attempts are given out because the players have learned to exploit the continuation rule.
Referees never used to give a player free throws when they shoot the ball from half court after getting fouled.


Curry knew he was being fouled and immediately threw the ball at the rim in one fluid motion.  If Zaza did that I'd say "no", but Steph Curry has ridiculous range.  Would he normally take a shot that far out?  No, but it isn't implausible he'd make it.

I think they should reduce the number of ticky-tack fouls that are called on shots, in general.  The foul on Curry was, without question, a foul.  There was no attempt at the ball because Jefferson couldn't get anywhere near the ball.  If you're going to foul someone just to stop a fast break then I think the penalty for that should be to award fritos if the dribbler can get the ball off in one motion.  As Tommy Heinsohn always says "Move yourself or move the ball!".  Jefferson didn't move himself, so he shouldn't be allowed to stop the other team's transition to offense due to poor defense.

If they didn't make as many ticky tack foul calls there wouldn't be as much of this. When there is real contact, then fine, award the continuation because they deserve it by shooting through contact. But for minimal and/or phantom fouls? No, and that's the ref's faults for blowing those.

There are no shortage of bad calls in the NBA.  People falling down after they shoot when there is no contact.  Throwing themselves out of bounds when they feel someone's hand on their back (I saw someone do that last night and it was his teammate's hand.  A clear flop that fortunately wasn't called since the ref saw that it was the same team).  I think the Curry issue you mentioned is relatively minor compared to the others.

Just my opinion.


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:20 am

The Warriors can rebound in their small ball line up, they have so much motion and play at such a fast pace that they can get away with it....they make other teams adjust, you have 3 elite players with scorers mentality and 2 great defender/glue guys in Green and Iggy, that's a unique team.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:24 am

Too bad there no great centers, a young Shaq or Hakeem could punish these guys inside and still go inside first and open up the 3 point game.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:55 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Too bad there no great centers, a young Shaq or Hakeem could punish these guys inside and still go inside first and open up the 3 point game.


Cow,

D12 and Drummond, to name two big bruising centers.  Whiteside is pretty strong inside too.  Mozgov is another power down low.

There are also less-bruising but very physical low-post centers in Plumlee (any of them!), Gortat.

Which is the chicken and which is the egg?  Is the reason why the game is changing because there are no great classic centers or are there no great classic centers because the game has changed and those prototypes are obsolete?

The new breed:  Miles Turner, Capela, Noel, Embiid (who could easily be another Hakeem if he can stay on the court).  No real powerhouses down low, no true bruisers, but very quick, very mobile.  Capela and Noel have virtually no offense and their defense is based upon athleticism and mobility, not power backed by weight and muscle.

The guy you and I discussed last year, and that you really love, AJ Hammons, only played in 22 games for the Mavericks and 15 games in the D-League.  He averaged 7.4mpg.  /36mpg he only averaged 8.4 rebounds.  To put that in perspective, Kelly Olynyk averaged 8.4 rebounds/36mpg last year.  Hammons outweighs Kelly by 30# and lives in the paint, near the backboard, and his rebounding numbers are identical to Kelly's. This kid was a load-and-a-half at your son's alma mater, Purdue, but he's a dinosaur in the NBA.  That's why Cuban traded for Noel and will pay him big bucks this summer.  It's because he can't see Hammons stepping up.  Here's an article that talks about Hammons and why he is where he is.  http://thesmokingcuban.com/2017/05/01/dallas-mavericks-j-hammons-dilemma/


Our NBA is gone, Cow.  25 years ago Whiteside would have owned the NBA.  Now he's just an elite paint defender and that's not near enough because most bigs now can hit from 3 and he is loathe to go out there to contest.


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by dboss on Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:43 pm

The proliferation of the 3 point shot has changed the way the game is played.  The traditional low post offense using the center has been altered.

The needs at the center position have therefore changed.

The new prototype center can still post up but must also be able to step outside to the 3 point line and take and make shots.  Centers that can handle the ball and run the floor are in demand.  PF with those same abilities are an option as well.  

GS plays the pace and space game to perfection because they have outstanding ball handlers and shooters.  

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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:48 pm

bobheckler wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Too bad there no great centers, a young Shaq or Hakeem could punish these guys inside and still go inside first and open up the 3 point game.


Cow,

D12 and Drummond, to name two big bruising centers.  Whiteside is pretty strong inside too.  Mozgov is another power down low.

There are also less-bruising but very physical low-post centers in Plumlee (any of them!), Gortat.
I
Which is the chicken and which is the egg?  Is the reason why the game is changing because there are no great classic centers or are there no great classic centers because the game has changed and those prototypes are obsolete?

The new breed:  Miles Turner, Capela, Noel, Embiid (who could easily be another Hakeem if he can stay on the court).  No real powerhouses down low, no true bruisers, but very quick, very mobile.  Capela and Noel have virtually no offense and their defense is based upon athleticism and mobility, not power backed by weight and muscle.

The guy you and I discussed last year, and that you really love, AJ Hammons, only played in 22 games for the Mavericks and 15 games in the D-League.  He averaged 7.4mpg.  /36mpg he only averaged 8.4 rebounds.  To put that in perspective, Kelly Olynyk averaged 8.4 rebounds/36mpg last year.  Hammons outweighs Kelly by 30# and lives in the paint, near the backboard, and his rebounding numbers are identical to Kelly's.  This kid was a load-and-a-half at your son's alma mater, Purdue, but he's a dinosaur in the NBA.  That's why Cuban traded for Noel and will pay him big bucks this summer.  It's because he can't see Hammons stepping up.  Here's an article that talks about Hammons and why he is where he is.  http://thesmokingcuban.com/2017/05/01/dallas-mavericks-j-hammons-dilemma/


Our NBA is gone, Cow.  25 years ago Whiteside would have owned the NBA.  Now he's just an elite paint defender and that's not near enough because most bigs now can hit from 3 and he is loathe to go out there to contest.


bob


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Bob you named 3 centers that are bruisers, but none are skilled on offense near a young Shaq or Hakeem. Your guys can defend in the paint, but that type of center is nullified because of all the small ball. Perhaps if Anthony Davis, K Towns or Cousins can get the right talent around them, we could see the league shift to low post first with even better 3 point shooting and spacing. Hakeem defended the paint like no other and was a dynamo post scorer forcing teams to double and then getting the Rockets 3 point shooters open looks....maybe one of my 3 could be in a situation to play like that again.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:53 pm

Forgot to add Embid to my list, I gotta think the right coach in the right situation could use that type of big to be in a winning contending situation.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by gyso on Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:10 am

Kevin Durant leads Warriors to brink of NBA title

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/kevin-durant-leads-warriors-brink-nba-title-041022761.html

CLEVELAND – For days, the message coming out of the Cavaliers‘ camp has been unmistakable: Game 3 is a must-win. Cleveland rallied from a 2-0 deficit to beat Golden State in last year’s NBA Finals, but this Warriors team is different. This team has a healthy Stephen Curry. This team has Kevin Durant. To avoid an insurmountable 3-0 deficit, the Cavaliers needed their best game from everyone in the rotation, on both ends of the floor.

For most of Game 3, they got it, but it wasn’t enough as Durant, who scored 31 points, and the Warriors defeated the Cavs 118-113 Wednesday night at Quicken Loans Arena to move a win away from their second NBA championship in three seasons.

“They’re a juggernaut of a team,” Cavs All-Star guard Kyrie Irving said.

Cleveland played with a sense of urgency early. J.R. Smith, scoreless in Game 2, knocked down a pair of first-quarter threes while LeBron James continued a string of strong opening quarters, scoring 16 points.

After committing 20 turnovers in Game 2, the Warriors continued to be sloppy, turning the ball over six times in the first quarter. That sloppiness was countered by a blistering 3-point assault. Golden State knocked down a record nine threes in the first quarter, finishing with a 39-32 lead.

“It’s probably the most … most firepower I’ve played [against] in my career,” James said. “I played
against some great teams, but I don’t think no team has had this type of firepower.

“So even when you’re playing well, you got to play like A-plus-plus, because they’re going to make runs and they’re going to make shots and they got guys that’s going to make plays.”

Both offenses cooled off in the second. For days, Kevin Love has been tabbed as a possible scapegoat if the Cavaliers bowed out of the Finals early. Love struggled in the first half, missing all five of his shots and drawing catcalls from some of the 20,562 in the building.

Golden State held a six-point lead at the half, with its favorite quarter to come. The third quarter had been the Warriors’ best in the Finals, with Golden State holding a plus-24 advantage in the third through two games. In Game 3, the third belonged to Irving. After struggling to find his shot in Game 2, Irving came alive Wednesday night. To shed the defense of Klay Thompson, the Cavs put Irving in a steady diet of pick-and-rolls, and Irving responded with a series-high 38 points, including 16 in the third. Love shook off a shaky first half to chip in nine points in the quarter.

“Klay didn’t hang his head when Kyrie was going off,” Curry said. “He stuck with it and when it mattered most down the stretch. I think all that pressure kind of showed itself, and Klay really helped us get over the hump by getting a couple stops.

“So a lot’s been said about his defense and how important it is, and you can’t understate it. It’s just he understands how valuable he is for us on that end of the floor.”

Cleveland took a six-point lead into the fourth. And then the back and forth began. A Durant 3-pointer cut the Cavaliers’ lead to two with six minutes left. A minute later, a Thompson three sliced the lead to one. A J.R. Smith three swelled the lead back to six with three minutes left.

Enter, Durant. With a 1:15 left, Durant knocked down a 13-footer to cut the lead to two. Then, with 45 seconds to play, Durant coolly drained a 26-foot three in front of James to give Golden State a one-point lead.

“They made some big-time plays,” Irving said. “K.D. comes down, hits a big three, puts them up one, iso on the wing. I’ll probably be replaying that play for a while.”

A pair of Durant free throws extended the lead to three, and a strip steal by Andre Iguodala on James sealed the win for Golden State.

“It definitely hurts,” Irving said. “I’m human, as well as my teammates, and to lay it all on the line like that, you want to come out on the winning side. But we gave a great effort, and the result just didn’t turn out the way we wanted to.”

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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:33 am

Durant is firmly on track to be MVP of this series.  He's averaging 34ppg, 10 rebounds and 1.33 blocks/game.  Those are monster numbers and he hit some clutch shots last night for the GSW win.

Cleveland's worst nightmare happened.  While they were worrying about KD and Curry, Thompson lit them up for 30 points on 11-18 and 6-11 from 3.

Since 2007-2008 the model of excellence and advancing to the Finals is to have 3 elite scorers and a variety of offensive and defensive role players.  Boston had a guard, a SF and a big.  Miami had a guard, LeBron and a big.  GSW has 2 guards and a swing.  

My question, therefore, for all you board members, posters or any lurkers who are knowledgeable about this is "Can Markelle Fultz realistically become another Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson?  What odds would you give on that?"  Because that's what we need.  We need another elite scorer to pair with IT, and then we need one more.  I don't know if Jaylen will ever become an elite scorer, although I have no doubt, NONE, that he will become a much better one but being an elite scorer is a mentality, not just a skill. Like rebounding. Telling a player they need to rebound more is nice, but the player has to want to kill for the ball first before that can happen. Once his mind gets there then you can start talking about technique. Does Jaylen want to light up everyone all the time?

Neither GSW nor Cleveland are a rim protecting, paint-defending team.  Thompson is solid and LeBron flies in from everywhere but they have no classic rim protector.  GSW has Zaza and McGee.  Zaza is an earthbound NON-rim protecting center and Javale McGee's ADD prevents him from playing heavy minutes.  He averaged 9.6mpg regular season and is averaging 9.5mpg in the playoffs.  His career average is 17.7mpg, so people thinking of him as our potential starting rim protector are, perhaps, giving him more credit than he deserves.  Does GSW play better with him than Zaza?  I believe so, so there must be a reason why he isn't starting, or playing heavier minutes, and not Zaza.


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by 112288 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:03 am

"Can Markelle Fultz realistically become another Kyrie Irving or Klay Thompson?

EVEN ODDS - EVEN BETTER!

BROWN?   He's finishing his rookie year and is all of 20 years of age.   The kid is going to border on greatness which in my mind is ok by me.  I wish all our players boarder on greatness..........perhaps we wold have won the Cleveland series if that were true.


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by kdp59 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:34 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Forgot to add Embid to my list, I gotta think the right coach in the right situation could use that type of big to be in a winning contending situation.


but will he ever play a full NBA season?

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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:44 am

That fourth quarter by Durant showed just how driven he is to win a title this year. He was unstoppable. When he pulled up for that long three I held my breath. He is definitely MVP in my book, even though LeBron is an extremely close second. If they were ever able to pull this off LeBron would be MVP hands down.

It is scary just how good this GSW team is. I know Draymond Green is a vital part of this team but last night he put himself as close as possible to getting thrown out. I know his heart cannot be questioned but, he is one of those players who does nor hold back for the sake of the team. It is frustrating to see the same player get so wound up that he puts himself before the team.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:50 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:That fourth quarter by Durant showed just how driven he is to win a title this year. He was unstoppable. When he pulled up for that long three I held my breath.  He is definitely MVP in my book, even though LeBron is an extremely close second. If they were ever able to pull this off LeBron would be MVP hands down.

It is scary just how good this GSW team is.  I know Draymond Green is a vital part of this team but last night he put himself as close as possible to getting thrown out. I know his heart cannot be questioned but, he is one of those players who does nor hold back for the sake of the team. It is frustrating to see the same player get so wound up that he puts himself before the team.


Rosalie,

Draymond Green is a bigger, more offensively proficient Marcus Smart.


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:05 pm

You are probably right Bob, I guess this is why I find it hard to consider the trading of such a vibrant player. Remember Tony Allen???? They missed him for years after he left the Celtics.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by cowens/oldschool on Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:00 am

kdp59 wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Forgot to add Embid to my list, I gotta think the right coach in the right situation could use that type of big to be in a winning contending situation.


but will he ever play a full NBA season?


if he can, look out !!
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by beat on Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:36 am

So has this ever happened in any game let alone a FINAL game.


Both starting centers combined got exactly 0 points! NONE!

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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:20 am

beat wrote:So has this ever happened in any game let alone a FINAL game.  


Both starting centers combined got exactly 0 points! NONE!

beat


beat,

And it was a high scoring game with respectable fg%, 48.2% for GSW and 44.4% for Cleveland.  34 points in the paint for GSW and 48 points in the paint for Cleveland.  48 points in the paint is a lot.  How did GSW win?  24-13 fast break points and a 48.5% 3pt fg%.  Fast break points and long-range shooting, not the fortes of centers, especially not Zaza and Tristan.

This ain't your daddy's NBA anymore.


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by cowens/oldschool on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:32 am

bobheckler wrote:
beat wrote:So has this ever happened in any game let alone a FINAL game.  


Both starting centers combined got exactly 0 points! NONE!

beat


beat,

And it was a high scoring game with respectable fg%, 48.2% for GSW and 44.4% for Cleveland.  34 points in the paint for GSW and 48 points in the paint for Cleveland.  48 points in the paint is a lot.  How did GSW win?  24-13 fast break points and a 48.5% 3pt fg%.  Fast break points and long-range shooting, not the fortes of centers, especially not Zaza and Tristan.

This ain't your daddy's NBA anymore.


bob










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if you get a young Hakeem type, if Embiid or K Towns or Anthony Davis ever fully develop and you can surround them with the right pieces, they could expose the lack of size on both teams.
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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

Post by bobheckler on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:52 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
bobheckler wrote:
beat wrote:So has this ever happened in any game let alone a FINAL game.  


Both starting centers combined got exactly 0 points! NONE!

beat


beat,

And it was a high scoring game with respectable fg%, 48.2% for GSW and 44.4% for Cleveland.  34 points in the paint for GSW and 48 points in the paint for Cleveland.  48 points in the paint is a lot.  How did GSW win?  24-13 fast break points and a 48.5% 3pt fg%.  Fast break points and long-range shooting, not the fortes of centers, especially not Zaza and Tristan.

This ain't your daddy's NBA anymore.


bob










.



if you get a young Hakeem type, if Embiid or K Towns or Anthony Davis ever fully develop and you can surround them with the right pieces, they could expose the lack of size on both teams.


Cow,

Maybe. Philly has the best chance of proving you right. I guess we'll know in the next few years whether you're right or if time has passed paint-pounding, high-skill dinosaurs behind, won't we?

I think it's safe to say that if you have a transcendental player, like a Hakeem, you could have a very good team. It's safe to say a baseball team with a Mantle could be good if you surround him with some other good players like Berra and Maris. A football team with a Brady and surround him with a decent offensive line and someone who can catch footballs. Yep, it's good to have elite talent.


bob


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Re: GSW - Cleveland NBA Finals Series

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