Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by dboss on Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
dboss wrote:How would these Warriors look if they put the hand check rule back in place?

dboss

Another side of that question is "How much more dominant would MJ have been if he played in an era where handchecking was not allowed?". Nobody could have stayed with Jordan without handchecking.

How would the Warrior stop Kareem's sky hook the most unstoppable shot in the history of the NBA. Who would cover Jordan? Who would check Kevin Mchale in the low post?

Could the PG Curry check Magic Johnson?

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:54 pm

86 Celtics would have steamrolled these Warriors, Larry Bird at his best with a healthy McHale, Parrish and Walton would have creamed small ball. Don't forget that team how well they could run the floor, would have been over in 5, Bird would have diced em and sliced em to shreds.
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:41 pm

There wasn't any hand checking back in the 50's-60's - and if there was why would you even bother guarding a player that shot in the low .400's or .3oo's?

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:40 pm

For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

1985-86 Celtics
2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
Parish-230
Walton-210
McHale-210
Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by Shamrock1000 on Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:55 pm

swish wrote:For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

     1985-86 Celtics
  2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

    Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
 Parish-230
 Walton-210
 McHale-210
 Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

Wow - its amazing those "Bigs" were so skinny...

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by bobc33 on Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:39 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Swish did Durant shoot 60% from the field this year? that's pretty amazing. I hate these discussions, but Sam used to say you have to realize that players today have the best in training, advanced techniques and equipment and nutrition, so give the old timers the same advantages and they too would look more like the modern players of today. A lot of old timers had real jobs in the offseason, there's wasn't near the money today where players have trainers, nutritionists, private chefs....etc

And I'm pretty sure some of those players from the 1960s were having a smoke during halftime of games. Has there been a player in the NBA in the past 30 years who smokes? (Not talking about herb)
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:48 pm

Bobc and cowens

Good job of pointing out some of the reasons why the old timers were so inferior to the modern players.

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by Shamrock1000 on Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:06 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
swish wrote:For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

     1985-86 Celtics
  2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

    Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
 Parish-230
 Walton-210
 McHale-210
 Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

Wow - its amazing those "Bigs" were so skinny...

Hey Swish - your posts indicate players are bigger and stronger than the old timers. However, has this been a continuous trend, or do it peak and thus players are getting smaller again. If so, I wonder when size peaked - I'm guessing sometime in the 90s or early 2000s. I ask this because your numbers dont lie, but all I ever seem to hear about is "small ball" and the death of the BIG man.

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:29 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
swish wrote:For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

     1985-86 Celtics
  2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

    Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
 Parish-230
 Walton-210
 McHale-210
 Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

Wow - its amazing those "Bigs" were so skinny...

Hey Swish - your posts indicate players are bigger and stronger than the old timers. However, has this been a continuous trend, or do it peak and thus players are getting smaller again. If so, I wonder when size peaked - I'm guessing sometime in the 90s or early 2000s. I ask this because your numbers dont lie, but all I ever seem to hear about is "small ball" and the death of the BIG man.

Shamrock1000

Working on some numbers - I'll have them for you tomorrow

swish

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by Matty on Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:07 pm

dboss wrote:[

How would the Warrior stop Kareem's sky hook the most unstoppable shot in the history of the NBA.  


dboss

Draymond Green could probably find a way that would only give him a game or two suspension.
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by NYCelt on Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:51 am

This thread and it's responses are why, contrary to some opinions, I think comparing teams, or players, across generations is an excellent exercise.

No, you can't line them up and have them play.  But take a look at some of the points raised in all the preceding posts.  Comparisons of size, shooting percentage and rules such as 3-point shot and hand-checking.  Isn't this a conversation that could only come from well informed fans who actually give some thought to the game beyond "little guy dribbles down court and passes to big guy who scores?"

It's a debate that can't be answered definitively, so it brings out the best in those that understand what they're talking about.
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:03 am

NYCelt wrote:This thread and it's responses are why, contrary to some opinions, I think comparing teams, or players, across generations is an excellent exercise.

No, you can't line them up and have them play.  But take a look at some of the points raised in all the preceding posts.  Comparisons of size, shooting percentage and rules such as 3-point shot and hand-checking.  Isn't this a conversation that could only come from well informed fans who actually give some thought to the game beyond "little guy dribbles down court and passes to big guy who scores?"

It's a debate that can't be answered definitively, so it brings out the best in those that understand what they're talking about.

NYCelt

Many thanks for your kind response. This subject matter has been a special hobby of mind for about 8 years.

swish
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:32 am

The perimeter defense is so much better today, yet despite that better defense, the players today still shoot so much better. I blame that on shooting coaches and advanced shooting drills started at early years in players.....who was the first big time stretch 4? Larry Bird. The game has evolved, is it better? That's all debatable.
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:33 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:The perimeter defense is so much better today, yet despite that better defense, the players today still shoot so much better. I blame that on shooting coaches and advanced shooting drills started at early years in players.....who was the first big time stretch 4? Larry Bird. The game has evolved, is it better? That's all debatable.

oldschool
Your statement below.
"The game has evolved, is it better? That's all debatable."

To me it doesn't matter - since I have enjoyed watching every generation since the late 1940's - and I have not had any difficulty in excepting the generational changes along the way.

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by dboss on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:17 am

Was watching Mike and Mike and they were talking about the Celtics/Lakers playing in the 80's and mention that the combined # of 3 point shot attempts averaged 14 per game.  They said that the recent matchup between the Cavs and Warriors yielded over 70 per game.

The proliferation of the 3 point shot has transformed the way the game is played at both ends.

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by worcester on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:37 am

bobc - I know for sure Dino Radja smoked after practices and games as a Celtic.


Last edited by worcester on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by bobc33 on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:43 am

worcester wrote:bobc - I know for sure Dino Rajda smoked after practices and games as a Celtic.

Yes indeed thank you Worcester.
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by worcester on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:48 am

And Dino averaged 8.4 RB and 16.7 ppg as a Celt - pretty fair numbers for a Marlboro Man.
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by bobheckler on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:39 am

worcester wrote:bobc - I know for sure Dino Radja smoked after practices and games as a Celtic.


worcester,

That's like Babe Ruth living on hot dogs and Mickey Mantle being a functional alcoholic. Another reason why comparing eras is nonsense, in my opinion. Players back in the day had no concept of training, not as we conceive of it today.

Gawd! Can you imagine if Brad or Danny or BDoo saw a current Celtic smoking a cigarette?!! They'd get Bogan'd faster than smoke can swirl.


bob


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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by worcester on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:53 am

Yes, faster than smoke can swirl!
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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:55 pm

swish wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
swish wrote:For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

     1985-86 Celtics
  2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

    Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
 Parish-230
 Walton-210
 McHale-210
 Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

Wow - its amazing those "Bigs" were so skinny...

Hey Swish - your posts indicate players are bigger and stronger than the old timers. However, has this been a continuous trend, or do it peak and thus players are getting smaller again. If so, I wonder when size peaked - I'm guessing sometime in the 90s or early 2000s. I ask this because your numbers dont lie, but all I ever seem to hear about is "small ball" and the death of the BIG man.

Shamrock1000

 Working on some numbers - I'll have them for you tomorrow

  swish

Shamrock1000

"Small ball" and and the death of the BIG man, are to me, far from the truth.

First some facts abut size
Numbers were taken from Basketball reference. Below listed players all played at least 700 minutes and are listed as front court players that played center, center forward, forward center, or forward.

Big man weights (are league average.)
1964-65 - 223.6 lbs
1985-86 - 226.5 lbs
2001-02 - 245.7 lbs
2007-08 - 250.3 lbs
2016-17 - 251.4 lbs
Now what's small about the 2016-17 weights ?

As to small ball - the bigs are still around but it's all about the changing role that the FRONT COURT players now perform. It's the 3 point Generation and the outside shot that is the big difference - and the front court players have certainly adapted to the new game.

Some front court numbers (Minimum of 2 three point shots per game)
1985-86 - Larry bird at 6'9' was the only front court player
1997-98 - 19 players - ranging from 6'7" to 5 players at 6'10" or taller
2007-08 - 35 players - ranging from 6'6" to 9 players at 6'10" or taller
2016-17 - 67 players - ranging from 6'6" to 27 players at 6'10" or taller - 10 were 7'or taller

For the weights I only did 5 years because it's very time consuming to research the weight for each player. I wouldn't be surprised if the weights haven't leveled off to some small degree - but the differences between the recent generations and earlier ones is huge.

swish

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by swish on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:22 pm

swish wrote:
swish wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
swish wrote:For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

     1985-86 Celtics
  2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

    Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
 Parish-230
 Walton-210
 McHale-210
 Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

Wow - its amazing those "Bigs" were so skinny...

Hey Swish - your posts indicate players are bigger and stronger than the old timers. However, has this been a continuous trend, or do it peak and thus players are getting smaller again. If so, I wonder when size peaked - I'm guessing sometime in the 90s or early 2000s. I ask this because your numbers dont lie, but all I ever seem to hear about is "small ball" and the death of the BIG man.

Shamrock1000

 Working on some numbers - I'll have them for you tomorrow

  swish

 Shamrock1000

"Small ball" and and the death of the BIG man, are to me, far from the truth.

   First some facts abut size
       Numbers were taken from Basketball reference. Below listed players all played at least 700 minutes and are listed as front court players that played center, center forward, forward center, or forward.

 Big man weights (are league average.)
   1964-65 - 223.6 lbs
   1985-86 - 226.5 lbs
   2001-02 - 245.7 lbs
   2007-08 - 250.3 lbs
   2016-17 - 251.4 lbs
      Now what's small about the 2016-17 weights ?

  As to small ball - the bigs are still around but it's all about the changing role that the FRONT COURT players now perform. It's the 3 point Generation and the outside shot that is the big difference - and the front court players have certainly adapted to the new game.

    Some front court numbers (Minimum of 2 three point shots per game)
      1985-86 - Larry bird at 6'9' was the only front court player
      1997-98 - 19 players - ranging from 6'7" to 5 players at 6'10" or taller
      2007-08 - 35 players - ranging from 6'6" to 9 players at 6'10" or taller
      2016-17 - 67 players - ranging from 6'6" to 27 players at 6'10" or taller - 10 were 7'or taller

     For the weights I only did 5 years because it's very time consuming to research the weight for each player. I wouldn't be surprised if the weights haven't leveled off to some small degree - but the differences between the recent generations and earlier ones is huge.

  swish  


Add on the weights for 1995-96 - 238.4 lbs

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

Post by Shamrock1000 on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:31 pm

swish wrote:
swish wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
Shamrock1000 wrote:
swish wrote:For those of you that think that the 1985-86 Celts would have destroyed the 2017 warriors there are some reasons to believe that is certainly questionable.

     1985-86 Celtics
  2 point field goal percentages.
Sichting-.578
McHale-.574
Walton-..562
Parish-.549
Ainge-.521
Carlisle-.514
Bird-.506
Wedman-.463
Johnson-.468

    Weights (front court players 6'6' or taller)
 Parish-230
 Walton-210
 McHale-210
 Bird-220

Hugh difference in weight

* More to follow.

Wow - its amazing those "Bigs" were so skinny...

Hey Swish - your posts indicate players are bigger and stronger than the old timers. However, has this been a continuous trend, or do it peak and thus players are getting smaller again. If so, I wonder when size peaked - I'm guessing sometime in the 90s or early 2000s. I ask this because your numbers dont lie, but all I ever seem to hear about is "small ball" and the death of the BIG man.

Shamrock1000

 Working on some numbers - I'll have them for you tomorrow

  swish

 Shamrock1000

"Small ball" and and the death of the BIG man, are to me, far from the truth.

   First some facts abut size
       Numbers were taken from Basketball reference. Below listed players all played at least 700 minutes and are listed as front court players that played center, center forward, forward center, or forward.

 Big man weights (are league average.)
   1964-65 - 223.6 lbs
   1985-86 - 226.5 lbs
   2001-02 - 245.7 lbs
   2007-08 - 250.3 lbs
   2016-17 - 251.4 lbs
      Now what's small about the 2016-17 weights ?

  As to small ball - the bigs are still around but it's all about the changing role that the FRONT COURT players now perform. It's the 3 point Generation and the outside shot that is the big difference - and the front court players have certainly adapted to the new game.

    Some front court numbers (Minimum of 2 three point shots per game)
      1985-86 - Larry bird at 6'9' was the only front court player
      1997-98 - 19 players - ranging from 6'7" to 5 players at 6'10" or taller
      2007-08 - 35 players - ranging from 6'6" to 9 players at 6'10" or taller
      2016-17 - 67 players - ranging from 6'6" to 27 players at 6'10" or taller - 10 were 7'or taller

     For the weights I only did 5 years because it's very time consuming to research the weight for each player. I wouldn't be surprised if the weights haven't leveled off to some small degree - but the differences between the recent generations and earlier ones is huge.

  swish  

Thanks Swish, this is great stuff. You are correct that "small ball" refers as much to a 3-pt oriented style of play as much as it does the size of the players. Will be interesting to see whether the league can keep finding bigger stronger players with the requisite speed, quickness and coordination to play in the association, or if the numbers are leveling off.

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Re: Steve Kerr weighs in whether great teams of the past could beat the Warriors

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