thoughts........

Trying to compete and field a team to equal GS might be a mistake perhaps.

I say this with this in mind. We have come a long way since Stevens arrived. During the past 1+ years we have had roster stability and with that roles have been set. Yeah sure individually we need to get batter BUT unless DA can swing a great deal we are what we are.  Of our current main rotation players that get the majority of minutes who among them has not improved? I can think of one that was playing worse at the end of this season than last. Look back Sullinger didn't improve and is gone and with his injury issues it might be over for him. Turner improved greatly under Stevens and took a big paycheck elsewhere........and what happened to him this year? Didn't really even hear about him.

There is still room for this team as assembles to grow by adding without subtraction.

I doubt we get that GREAT star to come here. A trade of players and assets may gut the team too much for the return. We have a great pick lined up and truly unknown players from last years draft that could put us in great shape.  Plus the gift that continues to give Brooklyn's pick next year which will be very good.

I want #18 as bad as anyone here but i don't want to see this team torn apart to get "that" player that then will have perhaps not much around him.  

I know money is a BIG factor but as a fan that isn't my primary concern.

Draft is a couple weeks.....then the summer team.

Looking like it will be an interesting summer for sure.

beat

I agree, beat. Nice job. May I also say that we have two starters (AB and Crowder) who have probably peaked, and are on team friendly contracts. We need to improve at 2, 3 and 4 (counting Al as the 5). I think any deals that would trade AB or Crowder to make us better he has to look at.

Beat,

Your post leading this thread really speaks to the quality teaching skills of Stevens and his great staff.  As you mention, of the guys who have gotten playing time since Stevens arrived, only Sullenger really did not show dramatic improvements.  Even my guy, James Young, has improved to some extent.

I am sure that Ainge sees this as well and has come to the conclusion that some of our "good" players need to be replaced by better (even "great") players to be better prepared to play like the Cavs and the Warriors.

Replacing some of the core of the 2017 team is not going to be fun, but it likely will happen.  With paying Horford a max salary last year, I think that Ainge has built a three year (from now) window to win #18.  Signing another max guy this summer and even considering re-signing Thomas next summer further supports that three year window thought.  That said, I doubt that he continues to take the "down the road" plan that he has been on for the last four years.  I have never been against his long term build after trading Pierce and Garnett, but we should not think that he would ever wait beyond six or eight years.

If the Cs take Fultz, I see Bradley as our biggest trade chip right now.  I like Bradley, but with only one year left on his contract he could be sent to Philly for Saric to better balance our roster.  Of course, we all know that Bradley is a free agent next summer.

Crowder is also a trade chip, but he plays a different position, does things that Bradley does not do and is signed for three more years on a great contract.

Beat,

If I get where you're going, it's that we should continue on as is, rather than gutting the squad and picks on a big trade.  Agree 100%.

First off, there is no readily apparent trade target (of course, sometimes there isn't), and secondly trading draft picks as high as we have this year and next is giving up very high, and young, potential.

No matter what we do, we're liable to have to contend with Cleveland, and, if we're fortunate, Golden State, for the next couple of years.  The way we're going, we could build a team capable of contending for a number of years after their dominance fades, even if they're our roadblocks for now.

Trade speculation and invention are great for kids playing Xbox.  My son's Celtics team against one of his friends recently was IT, LeBron, Curry, Davis, and Embiid.  Nice squad.  Nice fantasy too.  In the real world, if we can advance to the finals in the next few years it's more likely to look like IT, Horford, Fultz, and two guys we don't know/don't start/haven't drafted yet.

We're getting there.  There will be some trades and FAs too.  But a big, housecleaning deal?  Probably not.  Trading away high picks and stronger players we do have to net a Butler or George, for example, may get us no further than we are now.  And it's probably not a way to build for longer-term strength.

Regards

When you look at how GSW was built, your theory makes a whole lot of sense. It iakes good drafting, good coaching, and luck, a whole lot of it, to get where they are. They added Durant and were able to keep Iggy and Livingston. I think there is half a chance they lose one of them next year. But they will survive. Durant for Barnes, what a swap.

Stay the course, quality drafting by Danny, do not waste anything by trading it away
quality unless you are getting better quality back. I love watching young guys develop. I can't wait to see Brown next year, and if Faultz is what he is purporting him to be, the future is exciting. IT, to me, has put a face back on the Celtics. Everywhere you go, he is there, in Celtic Green with a big smile and talking about how great it is to be a Celtic. I feel he is here for a while. I like Al Horford, he brings that bit of dignity and poise to this team that it needs. So you are right. Beat, when you say a mass exodus is not necessarily the right thing here.

Here are my thoughts:

Short-term we are facing Cleveland and GSW.  Longterm we are facing GSW (their core can go for years), Minny, Washington, Philly and possibly Utah.  By the time GSW begins to decline many of the powerhouses in today's NBA will be in rebuilding mode (Houston with a currently 27 year old Harden, Spurs with a 31 year old Aldridge, Clippers with a 32 year old Paul and a 28 year old Jordan, Toronto with 31 year old Lowry and 30 year old Carroll and Cleveland with a 32 year old LeBron James and 28 year old Kevin Love and 31 year old JR Smith.  Their bench is 32 year old Deron Williams, 36 year old Korver and 36 year old Richard Jefferson).

We want to compete.  You ALWAYS want to compete.  The experience our team gained this year by going deep into the playoffs is something you cannot buy, cannot draft.  Jaylen grew, as a direct straight-line result.  Terry grew, as a direct straight-line result.  Marcus grew, as a direct straight-line result.  All this represents an investment in our future success in the playoffs and you cannot win a championship if you don't make the playoffs.  Been there, done that, right?  It's great to have young colts prancing about but the war is won by veterans with the thousand yard stares and there is only way to earn that and that is with experience. Experience is not the private domain of the old. It can also be gained by the young if they are put in a position to gain that experience.

We have a good team.  A very good team?  Hmm.  Maybe not, but very definitely good.  If we can add a quality free agent this summer we will still be rising even as Cleveland struggles to replace its old players.  Washington is, and will continue to be a thorn in our sides although Gortat is 33 and Mahinmi is 30 and Jason Smith is 31.  That's their entire front court except for Morris who is 27.  So, that front court only has a couple of years left, at most, before they have to rebuild the whole front court corp.  Toronto is running into issues too.  So, we could stay up near the top of the EC for years, gaining invaluable experience for our team.

Experience which have a profound effect on our young'uns.  Unless you're Bird or Magic or MJ, one does not come out of nowhere to become an All-League player.  It's something your develop into, if you have the skills and mentality.  It takes a little time.

In 3-5 years we will be turning over our players too.  Horford will be done.  IT may be done but our young'uns will have gained 3-5 years of unbuyable experience and they will be ready (especially with Trader Danny clearing away any players he considers dead wood).  The difference between us and the others will be the quality of our up-and-coming young'uns.  And having the #1 pick in the draft deepens that, hopefully significantly.

If we gut our team for the short-term we will be swimming against a blue-and-gold current the strength of a rip tide.  Assuming KD re-signs with GSW (and the local papers out here are saying he is willing to take less money to keep the core together) there isn't anybody out there that will beat them in their prime.  We need to keep nipping at the heels of Cleveland, challenging GSW and keep building, building, building.

I am not a fan of the draft but I also recognize that left-coast juggernaut is not a typical league situation, and thinking that a tweak or two or a signing or two can level the playing field against them.  I live out here, I watch them on TV regularly, they are positively eye-popping.  They have won 207 regular season games over the past 3 years.  That's 69 wins/year on average, and two of those years were pre-Durant.  In fact, their 67 wins this year with Durant was a slight dropoff, if you can believe that!  Short of signing LeBron or Kawhi there are no players out there that we could sign that could offset Durant, and neither of those players are signing here.

Save our cap space?  For whom?

Trade our youth?  Other than for the two players above how much would that improve our odds vs GSW?

Stay the Course.  Become the heir apparent in the East and just keep hammering on the door.  We lost chances at more championships due to knee injuries to KG and Perk and bone spurs with Ray Allen.  That can happen to other teams too, and there's the opportunity we need to step up, but we have to be ready for it and we don't know when (or even if) it will come.  That's why we can't trade our youth nor worry about hamstringing ourselves with cap space short-term.  We can do both and, in my opinion, we should.


bob


.

i like quality young players. I like good, no terrific veterans. the mixture of both will bring us closer to our destination. Remember, we have another first round pick in 2018. I know the chances of it being #1 are slim, but I could see the first 4-6, So, the future is bright, if we use are choices wisely. I totally agree, stay the course, add quality when we can and maybe, just maybe ???????????????????

Unless your team is lousy - grab the elite player, if and when you can - even at the expense of a number 1 unproven pick.

swish

I'm a fan of the approach of using free agency to strengthen our present and the draft our future. Unless one of those elite players is available, a top 10 player like Anthony Davis, use our pick this year for Fultz and use the Nets pick next year for hopefully another top 4 pick. Maybe we get lucky and a top 20 player like Griffin or Hayward signs with us even if it means we lose one of Crowder, Smart, or Bradley.. If not there are still available players who can help. Milsap very well could be the perfect addition to this team while Gallo or Ibaka also fill needs. This is our last chance to sign a max player unless we give up IT, Bradley and likely Smart. The Horford signing and ITs season make that seem unlikely. If the team is a little unbalanced, it's ok. We're in transition to compete for championships. This past year and next, are bonus years for us.

Beat

As you know I am with you 100%.

I like the process and the fact that DA has shown tremendous discipline.  I feel strongly that the Celtics will continue to improve and some of our young players that were acquired through the draft will become exceptional players.

I have seen the next great trade idea and the one after that and the one after that and quite frankly none of them pass muster.

If you like GS just remember that they drafted their core unit.  

DA has put the Celtics in a situation where they are a top 4 or 5 team with enough assets available not to gut what is already in place

Dboss

to add

sometimes the best move is not to make one ( a trade )

beat

Agree

I think we all pretty much agree here, we saw how far away from competing with Cleveland we are right now and Cleveland is no where close to GS right now.

I would note that IF Danny feels the same way then there is no reason to sign another high contract free agent ( Hayward, Blake, etc).

the future cap space would be better used on re-signing our own young players instead. That way we can keep the young core together.

but on another note, since I am one who enjoys playing GM in my head ( and out loud here), are there any players you WOULD trade multiple assets for this off-season?

most agree that Anthony Davis would be game changer, but many say pass on P. George and J. Butler.

how about Rus Westbrook, John Wall?

How about the big KAT at Minny?

Porzingus or Drummond?

would you trade say Bradley and the #1 pick this year for any of them, IF they became available?

would you happily trade the rights to Fultz for Myles Turner even up?

is the cost of signing Blake, Millsap or Gallinari worth eventually losing TWO of our young players?


Danny is at a crossroads with this team, IMO.

signing Horford last year, for good or bad has put him at this place.

Those who think we can sign another max player and then keep the team together in the future are wrong, IMO.

will we see any "fireworks" this off-season..time will tell.

kdp59 wrote:I think we all pretty much agree here, we saw how far away from competing with Cleveland we are right now and Cleveland is no where close to GS right now.

 I would note that IF Danny feels the same way then there is no reason to sign another high contract free agent ( Hayward, Blake, etc).

the future cap space  would be better used on re-signing our own young players instead. That way we can keep the young core together.

but on another note, since I am one who enjoys playing GM in my head ( and out loud here), are there any players you WOULD trade multiple assets for this off-season?

most agree that Anthony Davis would be  game changer, but many say pass on P. George and J. Butler.

how about Rus Westbrook, John Wall?

How about the big KAT at Minny?

Porzingus or Drummond?

would you trade say Bradley and the #1 pick this year for any of them, IF they became available?

would you happily trade the rights to Fultz for Myles Turner even up?

is the cost of signing  Blake, Millsap or Gallinari worth eventually losing TWO of our young players?


Danny is at a crossroads  with this team, IMO.

signing Horford last year, for good or bad has put him at this place.

Those who think we can sign another max player and then keep the team together in the future are wrong, IMO.

will we see any "fireworks" this off-season..time will tell.

kdp,

I agree with your post entirely.  We are not close to the Cavaliers and even further from the Dubs.  

Therefore, there are only a few players I would sell our future (many of our young'uns, Fultz/whomever, 2018 Brooklyn pick) for, and I doubt any of them would be available:  Porzingis, KAT, Davis, Kawhi.  Possibly Gobert.  Embiid in a NY second if I thought his injuries were behind him, and I have no reason to believe they are.  Of those players the only two whose name have appeared in rumors are Porzingis and Davis.  I do not believe either rumors, especially the ones about Davis.

All of these players are young, transcendental players.  That's what it would take for me to feel good about it because any players who are not transcendental players, or who are on their back 9, won't be enough or be at the top of their game long enough to get over and past Cleveland and GSW.

Westbrook and IT?  In alternating games maybe, because there's only one ball.  And Westbrook is 28.  His window is closer.

Not a chance at Wall, not anymore than at any of the rest of my list.

Andre Drummond? No thank you. Too one-dimensional and a glaring weakness during Hack-a-Drummond time.


bob


.

All these trade ideas has turned into robo calls.

Take my name off your call list...lol

Dboss

kdp59 wrote:I think we all pretty much agree here, we saw how far away from competing with Cleveland we are right now and Cleveland is no where close to GS right now.

 I would note that IF Danny feels the same way then there is no reason to sign another high contract free agent ( Hayward, Blake, etc).

the future cap space  would be better used on re-signing our own young players instead. That way we can keep the young core together.

but on another note, since I am one who enjoys playing GM in my head ( and out loud here), are there any players you WOULD trade multiple assets for this off-season?

most agree that Anthony Davis would be  game changer, but many say pass on P. George and J. Butler.

how about Rus Westbrook, John Wall?

How about the big KAT at Minny?

Porzingus or Drummond?

would you trade say Bradley and the #1 pick this year for any of them, IF they became available?

would you happily trade the rights to Fultz for Myles Turner even up?

is the cost of signing  Blake, Millsap or Gallinari worth eventually losing TWO of our young players?


Danny is at a crossroads  with this team, IMO.

signing Horford last year, for good or bad has put him at this place.

Those who think we can sign another max player and then keep the team together in the future are wrong, IMO.

will we see any "fireworks" this off-season..time will tell.

I basically agree with your post. Let me play Devil's Advocate for a second:
Doc said you have to be lucky and good. Part of the Cavs success is that they have been relatively injury free. LeBron has never missed a significant amount of time. Some players are just blessed that way, but we know from Bird, McHale and KG, that you can't play forever. IF he were to miss, say the playoffs, (NOT hoping for that, just positing), would they still be in the Finals?
Suppose they realize how far away they are from the Warriors, and do something stupid like trade Love for Melo, or even Kyrie. They are in salary cap hell, and LeBron does not mind spending Gilbert's money, as opposed to Arison's.
He can't play forever, not at this pace, and we need to be ready to pounce when that happens.

As for the Warriors, I think part of what makes them great is their chemistry. They all seem to like each other. What if that were to change? Suppose Klay leaves, or Iggy or Livingston leaves. I've even heard rumors they would trade Curry if the right deal came along.........
Would that change the entire landscape of the league? Don't think that would happen, he'll no doubt get the super max, but I read it would cost them, like 1.3 BILLION (including taxes) to keep this team together for 4 more years. That's more than some franchises are worth.

To answer your question, I think we need to sign another Free Agent ASAP. We did well with Horford, and now we need one more, with IT, Brown, Horford and probably Fultz.
Trades? I doubt IT and Westbrook would play together, IT would have to be traded to get him....they won't do that.
Davis - yes, I would make an over the top trade for him.
Porzingas - no if we had to take Melo, but, sure, he's on a nice rookie contract, and he'd be perfect.....we have guards, after all.
KAT - I would sell the farm, mortgage the future, do a "KG" type trade for this kid.....he's a total stud, and he'd be worth it..
Embiid? - actually no, not this year, he needs to play injury free before he gets into Brow and KAT mode!
Basically, your post is pragmatic, and should be the approach we take, but I think Danny the Gambler will be in full view this off-season. Just a gut feeling.

Did you watch the game last night? (silly me, I am sure you did) They were talking about Wiggins/Love trade. Also saying they feel that Love can be had for the right price.I cannot imagine Wiggins being available, they are building a good team in Minny, why disrupt it? Again, so many rumors, so little substance. The same with Davis being traded, not a word from anyone surrounding NO that they would consider trading Davis.
I am with dboss, tired of rumor after rumor, show me something I can truly believe.

I see that Kelly says he is not worried about what will happen in the off season?????
Wish I had that attitude! What will be will be, that is his opinion

Too much to absorb, I think I will sit back, read the posts, hold off responding as I am not quite as intuitive as Danny, so I will wait for him. HAHA

I think I need to note in my post above I was not saying ANY of the above players were/could be available.

I was only making examples of "what if" players and should /would it make sense for Danny to go after them IF they would be made available.

I still believe the signing of Horford last year was a signal that Danny wants to win sooner , rather than just going with all the draft picks. But I may be dead wrong.

kdp59 wrote:I think I need to note in my post above I was not saying ANY of the above players were/could be available.

I was only making examples of "what if" players and should /would it make sense for Danny to go after them IF they would be made available.

I still believe the signing of Horford last year was a signal that Danny wants to win sooner  , rather than  just going with all the draft picks. But I may be dead wrong.

kdp,

Anybody who thinks they know what Danny is thinking or planning is nuts.  I love his willingness to think "outside the box" but it also unsettles me because I have no idea wtf he is going to do.

As far as "winning now", I don't think Danny thought his last deal was the clincher.  He signed Horford because he likes him but also because he thought that would position him well for Durant.  That didn't work out but Horford is a popular building block for his next one and, with Trader Danny, there is always a next one until we are in the Championship round.

Celtic players 26 years old, or younger, that are likely/probable to make the team the team next year, barring trades:

As of start of next season

1.  Terry Rozier (23)
2.  Markelle Fultz/whomever (20-ish)
3.  Jaylen Brown (21)
4.  Avery Bradley (will be 27 November 26th)
5.  Marcus Smart (23)
6.  Ante Zizic (20)
7.  Guerschon Yabusele (21)

And then there are the ones who may not be with us:

1.  Jordan Mickey (23 in July)
2.  Demetrius Jackson (23 in September)
3.  Kelly Olynyk (26)

Unless I am overrating Zizic and Yabby's ability to make the team that is a TON of youth.  Too much, really.  7 out of 15?!  That's half the squad, with 6 of those 7 23 years old and under.

So, to get back to your point of signing Al Horford was "a signal that Danny wants to win sooner".  I'm not so sure.  We are loaded, LOADED, with "win later" players.  That's why I am convinced some of the first 7 are gone.


bob


.

I have to say I would do a trade with Philly if it was something like

we get Saric, Okafor and #3 pick

they get #1 and Zeller.

I doubt Phily would od it, unless they are sold that Embiid will finally be healthy. IF so it would make some sense for them to look at the deal.

Fultz with Simmons and Embiid gives them a young possible big three. They have the kid they draft and stashed last year joining Stauskas as a pure shooting guard. and still have Covington and Holmes at PF. Along with cap space.

we get an upgrade over Kelly for a cheaper price. a Low post scorer and solid rebounder in Okafor on a rookie deal also.

Danny still has the #3 pick for Jackson, Fox, Tatum, Monk whichever he likes best.

now signing that max or near max player also becomes a bit easier cap wise.

I could see a Blake or Millsap stepping into that spot.

Bradley or Smart would probably be the odd man out after next season, with Danny signing IT and only one of the other two to big dollar deals.

but with Jaylen and say Jackson being able to play the 2 guard spot, we'd be fine.

It would be a mistake letting Fultz join the 76ers

I haven't seen much sign of Trader Danny or Gambler Danny the past couple of years. Is he still around? Or has he matured now that he has performed the miracle of getting the Celtics out of CapSpaceHell? We are the one's who are addicted to instant gratification. Sure, signing Horford was Danny saying he wants to win sooner rather than later. But he's not all in, not yet. It becomes more and more difficult to upgrade very good talent. Every player on this roster can be upgraded. Even Brown, Horford, and IT. But doing so becomes more and more difficult because there are fewer and fewer players who are actually better than what we already have. And then there is the chemistry issue. This roster needs tweaking, not blow it up and start over again, or trade the core and then scramble to fill the holes around the incoming superstar.

There are certain things in the NBA that are almost written in stone but we ignore them all the time. There is no such thing as an untradeable contract. Any player desired can be had if the price is right and one is patient. And most important, it is the Boston Celtics destiny to rule the NBA.

mulcogiseng wrote:I haven't seen much sign of Trader Danny or Gambler Danny the past couple of years. Is he still around? Or has he matured now that he has performed the miracle of getting the Celtics out of CapSpaceHell? We are the one's who are addicted to instant gratification. Sure, signing Horford was Danny saying he wants to win sooner rather than later. But he's not all in, not yet. It becomes more and more difficult to upgrade very good talent. Every player on this roster can be upgraded. Even Brown, Horford, and IT. But doing so becomes more and more difficult because there are fewer and fewer players who are actually better than what we already have. And then there is the chemistry issue. This roster needs tweaking, not blow it up and start over again, or trade the core and then scramble to fill the holes around the incoming superstar.

There are certain things in the NBA that are almost written in stone but we ignore them all the time. There is no such thing as an untradeable contract. Any player desired can be had if the price is right and one is patient. And most important, it is the Boston Celtics destiny to rule the NBA.

mulcogi,

Tell that to Phil Jackson!  LOL.


bob


.

KyleCleric wrote:It would be a mistake letting Fultz join the 76ers

I totally agree. Do not trade anything good that would help out a team in your own division when we are actually in the hunt.

The trade with the Nyets was different. That was the beginning of the reboot. It didn't matter if it helped them or not.

There are a number of things that I would say to Phil if I got the chance. Have his people contact my people. lol