Thomas for Irving?

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by gyso on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:22 am

bobheckler wrote:Jay King @ByJayKing
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Isaiah Thomas finished top-five in MVP voting and still some people want to trade him, a valuable player and a lottery pick for another PG.
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by kdp59 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:26 am

I've been thinking about this question for a couple days now. I would have to answer YES to the original question.

That is I WOULD trade Thomas for Irving. My reasons are I feel Irving is a better player and is under a below market contract fro a couple years.

So if Cleveland would take Thomas for Irving straight up it's a no brainer move to me. Of course Cleveland will never accept that deal and would want more assets and that is where it gets iffy for me, like most Celtics fans.

Best I think I would do is Thomas, the Laker/Kings first and the future Clippers first for Irving.

of course that trade cannot happen for cap rules as Irving Makes $18.8M in salary PLus a 15% trade kicker.

putting together a package of players to come close to the $17M needed would require Thomas along with combo of:

Crowder with Smart, Tatum or Jaylen.

that's too much for me.








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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by wideclyde on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:17 am

No way does Cleveland get Thomas, Smart, Crowder and either Tatum or Brown for Irving.

Cleveland will become far too desperate for them to get such a return on Irving.  All any GM has to do is wait them out a while.  The Cavs are going to have to trade either Irving or James before this season begins as there has already been far too many issues to think that both guys can play together again.

The Cs would just have to sign Thomas to an equal salary for two years to what Irving is going to make for the same two years and the deal becomes Thomas for Irving straight up. We keep Smart, Crowder and both of Tatum and Brown, and set sail for the playoffs.

Thomas will accept this because he gets almost $40M and is not sure if he will get a max salary next summer especially with being unsure about his hip injury.

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by dboss on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:43 am

kdp59 wrote:I've been thinking about this question for a couple days now. I would have to answer YES to the original question.

That is I WOULD trade Thomas for Irving. My reasons are I feel Irving is a better player and is under a below market contract fro a couple years.

So if Cleveland would take Thomas for Irving straight up it's a no brainer move to me. Of course Cleveland will never accept that deal and would want more assets and that is where it gets iffy  for me, like most Celtics fans.

Best I think I would do is Thomas, the Laker/Kings first and the future Clippers first for Irving.

of course that trade cannot happen for cap rules as Irving Makes $18.8M in salary PLus a 15% trade kicker.

putting together a package of players to come close to the $17M needed would require Thomas along with combo of:

Crowder with Smart, Tatum or Jaylen.

that's too much for me.









kdp59

Kyrie is an immensely talented basketball player.  I can recall watching the Celtics Cavs playoff series and thinking Geez...he is freakin unstoppable!

I think what turns Celtics fans off is his attitude and perception of who he is and who he wants to be.  If there is one taboo for Celtics fans it is a complete disdain for a player that deviates from the concept of team.  A perfect example is Ray Allen.  He was a great player for us but at some point he decided that his needs were more important than team needs.  

Should the Celtics sacrifice team for talent?  If Kyrie came to Boston would our team culture be strong enough to alter his perception?  From a pure talent perspective do you think Irving is a top 10 player in the NBA.

If you had to move Thomas and Crowder and a first rounder or two (NOT the Golden Egg)  would that be too rich?  Are the Celtics going to keep Crowder?  Given the dollars being thrown around are the Celtics ready to pay IT $30 million per?  With all the future first round picks and limited roster spots is it time to cash a few of them in?  Or do we put together a ton of picks and make a run at Anthony Davis for example.

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by 112288 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:47 am

Our current need is a TOP CENTER not a TOP POINT GUARD!

The rest is all BS.......Danny is not trading for him!


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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by worcester on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:51 am

Another astute poster!
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by dboss on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:57 am

112288 wrote:Our current need is a TOP CENTER not a TOP POINT GUARD!

The rest is all BS.......Danny is not trading for him!


112288

I agree! AD anyone?
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by red16russ11 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:08 am

No on Kyrie. Let's keep the guys we have and go from there. The Cavs just signed DRose for peanuts. If they get Jackson and Bledsoe for Kyrie, they'll still be good. Let's just focus on beating them. I don't think they'd trade with us anyway.

And - they don't even have to trade him....he's under contract.
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by gyso on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:14 am

112288 wrote:Our current need is a TOP CENTER not a TOP POINT GUARD!

The rest is all BS.......Danny is not trading for him!


112288

112288,

I agree, we already have a top point guard / ball handler. Let's concentrate on what we don't have when using current and future assets.

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by swish on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:23 am

I wonder how much of the trading of Irving for lessor talent - is simply a case of wishful thinking on the part of anti Cav folks who are hoping for the sudden demise of LeBron and company.

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by kdp59 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:49 pm


kdp59

Kyrie is an immensely talented basketball player.  I can recall watching the Celtics Cavs playoff series and thinking Geez...he is freakin unstoppable!

I think what turns Celtics fans off is his attitude and perception of who he is and who he wants to be.  If there is one taboo for Celtics fans it is a complete disdain for a player that deviates from the concept of team.  A perfect example is Ray Allen.  He was a great player for us but at some point he decided that his needs were more important than team needs.  

Should the Celtics sacrifice team for talent?  If Kyrie came to Boston would our team culture be strong enough to alter his perception?  From a pure talent perspective do you think Irving is a top 10 player in the NBA.

If you had to move Thomas and Crowder and a first rounder or two (NOT the Golden Egg)  would that be too rich?  Are the Celtics going to keep Crowder?  Given the dollars being thrown around are the Celtics ready to pay IT $30 million per?  With all the future first round picks and limited roster spots is it time to cash a few of them in?  Or do we put together a ton of picks and make a run at Anthony Davis for example.

dboss[/quote]



I pretty much agree with what you say there. Like I said even up Thomas for Irving would be a no brainer, for me at least. Even if I consider Thomas and Irving even talent wise ( I think Irving is better) the fact he is locked up at below market value on his contract alone would be enough to make the deal.


is Irving top 10 in the NBA...pretty close if not I would think. top 15 for sure.

Thomas, Crowder and a couple lesser future first rounders for Irving...I'd think about it for sure.

there would need to be another team added to make the salarys work however.

all in all those that say it is a mood point I agree with, it would AMAZE me if Cleveland deals with us or vise versa.


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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by mrkleen09 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:02 pm

Not going to happen and no way I would even talk about giving up Tatum or next year's Brooklyn pick. Nope.
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by 112288 on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:25 pm

Kyrie has the benefit of playing with James so most defenses sag to the middle to prevent his bum rush to the basket like a fullback.

Soc Kyrie has room to shoot or rush into the paint knowing he could dump off to James.

Life is good and so his a players game with LJ playing next to you.

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by dboss on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:11 pm

LB is a great distributer but Kyrie put up impessive numbers his first two years before LJ went back to Cleveland. Thetefore it should be clear that Irving is an excellent offensive player even without James or anyone else for that matter.
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by wideclyde on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:58 pm

Irving is easily a top 12 NBA player, and as much as I like what Thomas has done in Boston he is not a top 20-25 player in the league. Yes, he was in the top five for the league's MVP, but such awards are very much determined by situation more so than absolute quality of an individual player. He was the Cs leading scorer, produced in the clutch and the team won first place in the East.

Cleveland will get a little bit more worried about trying to play James and Irving together as the season nears unless these two guys find a way to reconcile. I doubt that there is any way that their ownership feels that these two guys can play together any longer. And, the more worried (time goes by) that Cleveland gets the less they will get for Irving as they cannot trade James without throwing themselves back into a total rebuild mode.

If one of these guys has to go it will be Irving. Cleveland taking Thomas for Irving straight up will still give their fans a chance to think that they are still fighting for the finals. Kind of one all star out and one all star in type of thinking. The Cs are the only team that I can find who can afford to give Cleveland an all star and still come out on top of this situation. Cleveland may want more than just Thomas for Irving, but they also might not just be able to get a better deal than just Thomas.

Although a sign and trade (for money equal to what Irving makes) of Thomas throws the Cs into the luxury tax area the owners said that they would pay the tax if a championship was attainable. I doubt that any team with championship aspirations is not going to avoid paying at least some luxury taxes over the next ten years.

Right now Thomas has not proven to be 100% healthy and there is ZERO guarantee that he is either offered a max contract by the Cs next summer or that he even signs a max contract in Boston if offered. Ainge traded Bradley because he did not think that he could sign him next summer so why cannot we think that Ainge might feel the exact same way about Thomas for next summer?

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by bobheckler on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:10 am

Tom Halzack @TomHalzack
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"(his accomplishments are largely) as the beneficiary of LeBron. That would be alarming to me if I was a team looking to get him.” - Billups
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https://www.sbnation.com/2017/7/25/16026276/chauncey-billups-kyrie-irving-trade-request-cavaliers-nba?yptr=yahoo



Chauncey Billups knew of Kyrie Irving's discontent while interviewing with Cavs weeks ago


Irving’s trade request did not surprise Billups, and it appears to be a reason he declined the front office job.



by Tim Cato@tim_cato  


Jul 25, 2017, 1:44pm EDT




Photo by Donald Miralle/Getty Images



In a Tuesday radio interview, Chauncey Billups said he knew about Kyrie Irving’s discontent weeks before the star point guard requested a trade. Billups had been offered a job running the Cleveland Cavaliers’ front office, but declined it three days into free agency.

On the Vic Lombardi Show on Altitude Sports 950 AM in Denver, Billups called Irving’s mindset “alarming” and indicated that it was a factor into why he didn’t take the Cleveland job.

“(The trade request) didn't surprise me,” Billups said. “I knew as (the Cavs) were doing their due diligence on me I was doing the same thing on them. I knew so much about the situation that the rest of the world doesn't know. But it's unfortunate, man, because he's a special talent. So much of what he's been able to accomplish on and off the floor has been as the beneficiary of LeBron James. That would be alarming to me if I was a team looking to get him.”

Irving met with the Cavaliers two weeks ago and requested a trade, something that was reported last Friday. It appears that Cleveland will honor his request, actively searching the market for teams who are interested in the point guard. However, Billups was surprised by Irving’s desire to leave Cleveland.

“You're getting everything you want," Billups said. "You're getting all the shots you want, you're playing for a great coach, when the game is on the line they're coming to you, you're playing on national TV every week. To me, I don't get it. Everybody has their own desires. Maybe he wants to be Russell Westbrook and go try to win the MVP and get all the shots. That's the only thing sense I can make of it and to me that doesn't make sense.”

Billups said concerns about James potentially leaving during next year’s free agency were not a factor in his decision, but it seemed clear the Irving discontent did. Ultimately, it “just didn’t feel like it was quite the right time” to take such a job, he said.

The Cavaliers officially promoted assistant general manager Coby Altman to the lead spot after he had run the team since former general manager David Griffin resigned days before last month’s NBA draft.



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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by kdp59 on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:37 am

what are the rules for signing an extension?

I thought the current contract years stay in force. IF so Thomas' salary would still only be a bit over $6M...nowhere near the $18M needed to match Irvings.

perhaps I am wrong on the contract extension rules ....gyso?


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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by NYCelt on Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:48 am

Here's one I agree with.  Nothing special, just a USA Today sports item.  But I think they have it right.  They rank the NBA teams by how much Irving could help from least at #30 to most at #1.  Golden Sate is #30, and Boston is #29.

Here's their take on the Celtics stance and a link to the op-ed piece.

Nope, not interested

30. Golden State Warriors

29. Boston Celtics

David Butler II/USA TODAY Sports

There's no way the Cavaliers should trade him to either of these teams. Nor should they entertain moving any worthwhile players or assets for him. There's too much at stake here; imagine if the Celtics give up Isaiah Thomas and a future draft pick for Irving - a reasonable value trade - and then lose to the Cavs in the Eastern Conference finals anyway?



https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ftw/2017/07/26/ranking-every-nba-team-by-how-much-kyrie-irving-could-help-them/104008840/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomsports-topstories?src=rss
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Re: Thomas for Irving?

Post by KyleCleric on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:49 pm

Swapping the 2 is a mistake. If we keep IT, Hayward, and Horford, a trade could be made acceptable for the Celts. IT is better than anyone they can get elsewhere. Better off having them get 20 cents on the dollar than near full value with us.

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Re: Thomas for Irving?

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