The Greatest Team

Not Bob Ryan, and his pick is not mine.

Sam

Next thing GYSO will try to deny he is the real Hondo. The smilies can be addictive.

1969-70 Knicks. I was a Knicks fan back then. I was in approx 15 years old and idolized Clyde, Willis, and DeBusschere. I used to imitate all of them on the playgrounds, including Dick Barnett too. Bill Bradley was the guy I thought Red Holzman should sit on the bench. I used to complain to my dad for hours on end that Phil Jackson should get Bradley's playing time. Later, when they got Earl the Pearl, I tried to imitate him too. But who can imitate Monroe? Not even Earl knew what Earl's next move was going to be!

But Bob Ryan and the rest of the world are welcome to your/their opinion(s) too.

IMHO the best 11 teams of all time were the Bill Russell championship teams. In every game there is a moment of truth when one team exerts its will on the other. Bill said mental toughness provides the margin of victory.

Which team, which players were more mentally tough than Bill and team?

The 67 Sixers won because it was Bill's first year as coach. The 70 Knicks, featuring the same team, lost to Bill and the Celtics in '69.

Larry Bird wasn't a center and couldn't have beaten Bill, so said Red.

Spike, we finally agree 100% on something. The Bob Cousy/Bill Russell Celtics will never matched for team greatness. Larry's guys gave it a great shot, no pun intended, and today's teams still have a ways to go to be "special" Celtics teams. That is, in the spirit of what we were taught to be "Celtics Pride".

Good post. Thanks for saying what I was reluctant to say.

David

D14

At some point Sam will add his bit to this speculation. If you saw what he saw, what we saw, you know there's no other answer. I never saw the Yankees of Babe Ruth and Larrupin' Lou, or Joe D and Yogi, but I don't doubt their greatness for a second. The same goes for the Canadiens with Rocket Richard and friends. I did see the Vince Lombardi Packers and I'd put them up against any football team ever. They all had the essential ingredient of mental toughness as a team.

When the '84 Lakers lost to a team they should have run into the ground, Magic Johnson stifled his sobs and said, "We lacked the appropriate mental toughness."

This year's Celtics seem to have plenty of it. Last year's little airing of grievances at Rondo's team meeting may have finally made this into a team. You can't have a Big Three without sacrificing unpredictability and adaptability.

So even if they have to give up minutes and shots for the sake of the team, the stars take it to another level.

spike

PS

Sam knows more about basketball and the Celtics AND writes better than Bob Ryan ever dreamed.

GYSO looks more like Robert Redford than John Havlicek. Or were you referring to his avatar?

Spike and D14

Here we can be bias, we don't have to be objective. We are Celtic fans correct? (well most of us) Although I may respect other teams thats it, no more than that.

The C's have the greatest 17 teams of all time. Put them in any order you wish.

Mine start with 1969.

beat

SPIKE-
I did see what you and Sam witnessed and have been reluctant to try to force our thoughts on those who never had the "luxury" of seeing Russ, Couz, Hondo in his early days. However, when adding Sam, KC, Satch, Jo Jo, Don Chaney, a youthful Tommy, Ramsey of the bench, and talk about enforcer; Louscy, many of today's basketball fans have never really been exposed to what team chemistry can be when it is at its best. Many of us witnessed the fact that the psyche, not to mention the rythm of a basketball game changed everytime Bill Russell walked on the court. I love all the subsequent Celtics teams, and respect everyone's individual opinions, however there was something "special" in the world of sports and in being a fan in having the honor of being able to watch the Russ based Celtics group. None of this takes away from our support for the subsequent championship teams, however it set a bar for many of us for future expectations.

With respect to the avatar's I think you were referrring to Nick Faldo's posts. You mean gyso is not really Hondo!!!

BEAT-
As luck would have it, I happened to be in Los Angeles for the balloon game. My biggest hero for that game, although all the Celtics were heroes, was Em Bryant. The LA papers were all but laughing about the comparison of EM and the Lakers' guards including Jerry West. One LA paper joked about Em being useful in helping Cooke clean up the balloons after the game. Em probably read every word of the criticism. All he did was score 20 points in the first quarter and 40 for the game.

You are right on Beat. That team was a very special team, and one that used their IQ to win it all. Russ paced the group and was not bothered by the 4th place finish and/or in losing in the first two games of the finals. Russ and guys knew when to use the talent and "fuel" in order to conquer!!

DJ, sorry to deter away from your concent, however what would one expect from Celtics fans who sincerely believe in Celtics Pride as our standard.

This shouldn't be that tough to come close to a consensus. No one is mentioning any team from before Bill Russell showing up (like George Mikan led teams). That means the greatest Russell Celtic team needs to be figured out. If you older guys can't decide on that, then oh well.

As for the 1969 team, no way can that be considered the greatest. They had a mediocre regular season. I was reading a bit on the 1969 finals, and the word ugly kept showing up. Perhaps the 1969 team won the greatest upset of all time. Villanova over Georgetown. Same thing. Maybe the greatest upset. But no way was that Villanova team that great. They just hit a phenomenal streak hitting 79% from the field or whatever ridiculous number it was.

Then break it down further. What about the 67 Sixers and the later Knicks team. I wasn't sround or was teething or learning my first words. But this is why I've always enjoyed reading the posts from this crowd. Younger people than me probably like to hear more about the late 70's early 80's when I started to watch. It's just the way it is. Basically I am admitting I am out of this debate until Doctor J, Bird, and Magic arrived.


I like Bob Ryan. If he says the 85-86 Celtics were the best Celtics team, that carries a lot of weight to me. Then one needs to decide if the 87 Lazkers should be considered. I don't include Michael Jordan led Bull teams. A James Posey type player could have attacked him. Pippen might have been underrated. The rest of the Bulls didn't scare me. They never seemed to have a great center. Kobe and Shaq would have beat the Jordan teams. Bird, Magic, even the Pistons would have beaten Jordan, that's what I think. While San Antonio has been impressive, I don't consider them in the greatest teams mix. I also almost forgot the Dr. J. Moses Malone team. That was probably close to as good a team as the 85-86 C's and the 87 Lakers. The 2008 Celtics might have gotten some consideration if they'd have dispatched Atlanta and Cleveland a lot easier. I would rank last year's Laker team as one of the worst championship teams of all time. Malone-Stockton would have finally gotten a ring if that was the Laker team in their way to face a mediocre Orlando team, mediocre as in compared to other teams reaching the finals.

Sam wrote:I'll step aside and let everyone else debate this one. There IS a correct answer.

Sam

Sam, I hate to spoil the surprise and kill the suspense, but I'm going to go ahead and reveal your answer>


Ladies and Gentlemen- the 1987 Los Angeles Lakers !



Ok, that's really my answer, not yours.


I'm obviously biased, but I do think those Lakers would beat any other team on the list head to head, including the '86 Celts, which I would rank as the 2nd best team of all time.

I am curious to hear your choice, though, sir.

Well,since I started this ,I guess I'll weigh in.

Pure talent--best season--toughest team,not my favorite team,not the gutsiest team,not the team that nobody thought would do well,njot the best team a few years runnin'.......the best 1 season team.

1.67 Sixers
2.86 Celts
3.87 Lakers
4.65 Celts
My favorite "team"--to watch....69-70 Knicks.

Nick, you bring up a great philosophical question. Is the greatest "team" the one with most the best talent and the one expected to win, should the the greatest "team", be the one that is not expected to win, but finds a way to overcome injuries and other obstacles in order to prevail.

Just asking!! Some believe the "best or greatest team" can be the one with the "greatest talent', ie Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor!!! Others just focus on the real meaning of "team" and go home with leaving the balloons behind.

Maybe measuring the greatest team should come with "measuring criteria". in order to offer a consistent or objective response.

With respect to Bob Ryan, he definitely has placed himself in the history of the elite media from Boston. However, there were many, including me, that disputed his article indicating that Paul Pierce's "crying" conduct during the ring ceremony "ruined the event". That article, caused me, as shy as I am, to exchange a series of emails with Bob. I reminded him that Russ, Cooz, among others, including Michael Jordan, shed manly tears when accomplishing a significant goal. I saw no reason to take Paul down in a passionate moment of glory.

Caveat---I can never be objective about anything related to the Celtics.

David14, I missed Ryan calling out Paul for "man tears" as you put it. Maybe that was delayed payback for when Paul put the bandage around himself after the Pacer playoff game. I think even smart guys like Ryan are going to write some stupid articles. Maybe not to the extent of Shaugnessy. I agree it's ok to cry and men should do it more often. Was Ryan questioning the sincerity of the tears or the timing? That's the thing about crying. Unless we study with Robert DeNiro, it's not like we can control it. As for the greatest team, I think it should comprise everything, like the '85 Bears in football. I just remembered and Sky Hook will appreciate this, but that Laker team which won 33 regular season wins in a row needs to be considered. Also, when I said Bird, Magic, or Isiah teams could have beaten Jordan teams, of course, Jordan played against them. I meant if Jordan had to face them in their prime. I see those Jordan teams as the equivalent of Larry Holmes in boxing. Sure he was undefeated for most of his career, but he never really had a great challenge. I think Ali was truly the greatest, even with the losses. Frazier was very good. Foreman was the original beast before Perk. Ali had his prime stolen away from him. Maybe Ali was kind of the Ted Williams of boxing? Maybe I am the poor man's version of hacks like Shaugnessy emptying the pieces from the sports writer's mind? And no, I don't drop posts on Shaugnessy columns. I gave out to Mazz a few times. I've shined Finn's shoes a bit. What was the question?

I have no problem with crying during a ring ceremony. Esp considering everything Pierce has been through.

Sounds like Ryan was trying to compete w/ Shaugnessy to see who could be the bigger jackass, although it's a futile quest. Shaugnessy= absolute jackass.

And yes, Nick, I agree that the '71-'72 Lakers are part of the discussion. I would put them in the top 5.

Babyskyhook, the 87 Celtics who lost to the Lakers 4-2 were basically the 86 Celtics with a seriously injured and useless Walton and a McHale playing with a fractured foot/ankle. Given the fact that the C's had a one point lead in Game 4 of the 87 series when Kareem missed the free throw, had McHale rebounded the ball instead of the theory that Kevin knocked it out of bounds, the C's tie up the series 2-2 instead of Magic hitting the "babyskyhook". The series goes back to LA with the C's leading 3-2 where the C's could have won it in LA and/or the Lakers win it 4-3. Substituting the 86 Celtics with a healthy McHale and Walton, using common sense, not only would the 86 C's have prevailed, a healthy 87 C team should have prevailed. Therefore, not sure how you could claim the 87 Lakers were a superior team to the healthy 86 Celtics.

Then again, it is all speculation. Glad you are back, for at least, the little time you have to post.

David

DJ. You make a good distinction. Maybe the 69-70 Knicks weren't the best of all time. But they certainly could be the most enjoyable ever, to watch.

DJ, in my opinion, the measure of a good thread is not who has the right answer (except for Beat's "beat the clockin the morning trivia game"), but is in the interest it creates among the members. Congrats and thank you for your posting a fun thread.

David

I wonder if the answers could be generational in nature, with each person choosing a team that was a part of their youth. How about some age disclosures to see if this might be a factor.

Swish

Spike and Sky,

It's fun to watch what others say and to read their reasons. Some great responses. And, in the end, much of the conjecture proves that there's a very understandable bias towards a team that one has seen in action.

I've often said that winning a succession of championships tends to diminish, in some strange way, the perceived greatness of any single one of those teams. People have a tendency to recognize the greatness of the era but to skim over the logic that one or more of the teams within that era might possibly have been the greatest of all-time. The very act of trying to decide among the teams of the era somehow seems to detract from their individual greatness in a sort of "taken for granted" way.

I'm also struck by the fact that a lot of discussion about great teams deals with their results rather than with the COMPOSITION of the teams. How versatile and well-rounded was a given team? Could the team play virtually any style of basketball and still beat all comers? What was the team chemistry like? How interchangeable were the parts? Were there any facets of the game in which the team did NOT excel? What was the collective IQ of the team? How well-coached was the team? How demanding was the schedule, and how intense was the competition throughout the league? How mentally tough was the team? How infallible was the team in the clutch? How capable of being a "game-changer" was even the 10th or 12th man on the roster? What logistical adversities did the team have to overcome that teams of other eras didn't have to overcome?

In short, irrespective of factors that could have been influenced by schedule, nature of the competition, playoff configuration, logistics, rules differences, and other factors EXTERNAL to the team, which team was the greatest single season practitioner of the game of basketball?

Sam

DJ

Sweet thread. Congrats on success. Glad you are here!

Jeb

I, too, missed Bob Ryan's ridicule of Paul Pierce. Seems sometimes these guys have bigger heads than the players themselves. What gives them the right to accuse Pierce of faking his tears? Did they look fake to you? Certainly not to me. It was a long, hard road for Pierce to get that championship ring. Sure, there were times when he acted a little immature, but, in the end, he has been a true Celtic. So, Mr. Ryan was just looking for a little attention. As far as Dan Shaunessey is concerned, he is the most cynical writer on the Globe.
I really don't read anything he writes regarding the Celtics. He should stick to baseball, even though I am sure he can tick some of those fans off too.

In the end, who are we to judge? I thought it was a touching moment and one that I will remember for a long time.

Rosalie, you and I have the same historical following of the Celtics. It looks like we started following them at the same time. You sure have a great understanding of the game and of the Celtics organization.

Although, I have drafted thousands of career related documents over the years, I had not really started posting on sports boards until I was bothered by Bob Ryan's comments about Paul. I had not been one to send comments to sports writers until that time. Ryan and I had quite an exchange. In fact he said, "what's wrong with Paul Pierce and what's wrong with you for support his destructive efforts". I don't want to start an anti-Bob Ryan issue, however how can these writers expect sports stars to want to play in Boston when they publish these kinds of comments.

David

Rosalie/Nick- I actually have enjoyed reading Bob Ryan for years, therefore I was surprised and disappointed with the article. Here is the link for Bob's comments.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/29/little_rhythm_but_no_blues/?page=full

---------
The following was Bob's response to me when I suggested that he may have been too harsh on Paul--

"You and I should be waiting for his apology. Did he think it was Oscar
night? I.I, me, me. Did he think people were concerned with his thoughts?
Did it occur to him to mention the teammates, two especially, that made it
all possible? What's the matter with him? What's the matter with you?
Bob Ryan"
-------
The conversation became more congenial after a few more emails. However, Paul had to have been bothered by the article.

David

Bob who?

Mooltrikon wrote:Bob who?

Good point Mool, as usual!!!