POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by dboss on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:39 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Dont know where in Boston you live, but bitching about the cold weather everyday is NOT the norm around here.  

Kleen

I am assuming you have posted this for me.

I do not live in Boston.  I was born there in 1949 and moved to Atlanta in 1986.  Everybody has different norms.  Just about everyone I ever talk to mentions the cold winters up there and in my entire life I can only recall a very few that said that they like cold weather.  But that is not relevant to this discussion or your complaint about people complaining about Marcus Smart's shooting.

You called it bitching but it sounds like you are the one that is bitching.

Marcus Smart is a historically bad shooter.  Are posters suppose to ignore that?  The central premise about the sport of basketball is shooting the basketball into a hoop.  Great shooters are praised for their ability to do that and poor shooters are demonized.  

Is it possible to really like Smart but hate his offensive abilities?  If that is true I fall into that category.

I for one will not ignore his shooting as long as he is on the Celtics.  When he has a rare moment of offensive success it will be acknowledges and when he puts up a 0-10 it will be talked about.  When he makes great defensive plays, passes or wins 50/50 balls he always will get credit from me.

If you are tired about reading negative posts about Marcus's struggles to make shots think how other posters feel when they see him shooting below 30% game after game.

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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by worcester on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:44 pm

I still love Rondo and wish him well.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:35 pm

This year his shot has gotten even uglier, some of the misses are beyond CLANK!!!
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by Phil Pressey on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:27 pm

I wasn't or still am not a big believer in Marcus Morris. I acknowledge he is a proven NBA player. I'm just not sure he is that good or indispensable. But you go to war with the army you have. I said my piece and moved on.

I suppose I was also in the wtf is wrong with Smart community. There is also a small detail such as his contract is running out. Many times this situation has arisen, those players were traded or let go.

I added my two cents. Smart needed to concentrate on his pg skills. He needed to take more shots that he is quite decent at. There is a corner three in which he has a much better percentage. I've seen him do well with posting up. He sort of has D. Wade skills with strength to muscle in layups. I also argued that shooters do best when they start in close and then work out from distance. Some of these guys are so good at shooting, they don't have that problem as much.

When the threes are not dropping, Tommy screams to drive to the hoop or start running more, get some easy baskets. Another thing to keep in mind is that Brad and the other coaches are telling him to keep shooting. It is not all Smart's fault. Maybe none of it is and it's just basketball that came and gone.

Marcus Smart is a miserable shooter or has been. He is imho a Hall of Fame player for defense. If he can get better at shooting and/or be the best pg he can on offense, he is an all-star or close. I believe this is a title contending year and not just some feel good bridge year like the previous two. Smart is a big part of our championship chances for at least this season.

I actually had greater hopes than most for the last couple playoff years, but the C's were always too banged up at that point to maximize the odds and got crushed by Cleveland.

I am open-minded. I think trading Smart could be a mistake because the heart of this team is defense and he is the best at it. I haven't noticed him getting injured in a long time (knock on wood). He's built like a tank and can eat up a lot of minutes.

Last year I felt our only chance was if Amir Johnson showed up for the playoffs. It was slim odds and didn't work out.

If Marcus can play well including on offense and becomes a $20 million dollar player, that is fine by me. That will mean Brad can put five guys on the floor who are potential all-stars or close and that's with Hayward out of the picture.

Another what if may be can Tatum handle power forward? If so and Horford can handle center and Marcus is a positive on offense, I think we can match Golden State this year right now.

Irving, Smart
Brown, Tatum
Horford

Who wouldn't feel good about our chances with them if all of the above are healthy with stamina?

Then there is the bench. Morris and Baynes look proven. Rozier is kicking butt the last couple games. Theis seems very capable of being in a championship rotation or towards the last role of a great team. I am not very confident in Semi or anyone else left on the roster, but it's not even mid-season. There is a lot of time for Danny to tighten up the roster before the playoffs.

I for one am not attacking Smart. I don't think the others were either. But his shooting has been very bad and even much worse than he was in previous years. It is a valid topic. His contract is running out. This is decision time for Smart as a Boston Celtic. It is what it is.

I don't think anyone is attacking him. I think people are curious about his present and future and are rooting for him. I was a big Rondo fan. I often did not like hearing non-stop attacks on him. But I couldn't deny he was a head case at shooting free throws which made him more nervous about heading to the rim.

Smart lost weight. He worked on his shooting. He put up miserable shooting stats until the last game. His contract is up. This is a developing story. I don't see how this is a disruptive topic.

Live and let live. Agree to disagree is a motto I've become more comfortable with as the years roll by.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by worcester on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:32 pm

Shooting aside (Beside that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?), Smart has really stepped up his game as a PG.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:35 pm

Agree to disagree sounds about right Phil.

I will use default to Brad Stevens judgement. If Smart is good enough to be on the floor (blemishes and all) during crunch time - he is good enough for me.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by worcester on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:45 pm

He is good enough this year. If he got his fg% up to even 36% he would probably be a keeper to resign at $20M per year. For his sake I hope he does.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by Phil Pressey on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:48 pm

I see where you are coming from, mrkleen09. There are a lot of factors involved and it might become easy to scapegoat Smart despite his missed shots not hurting as much as it seems. He is Isaiah Thomas but flip offense for defense.

Isaiah worked hard to defend. That made it work. Smart doesn't have to shoot 7-8 or what he did last game every game, but less 1-15 performances would help a lot.

Horford doesn't put up monster points. Tatum also lets the offense come to him. But Al gets assists and Jayson gobbles up rebounds.

Smart gets a lot done even when he doesn't shoot well. I agree he is very consistent in helping the team win even when his shot gets cringeworthy.

Shaq couldn't hit free throws. Your point is valid.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:05 pm

Thanks Phil - and I agree with all the people saying his shooting isnt very good. I guess I am just not sure how that comes as a surprise to many out here, as this isnt a new thing. And that is where I have gotten confused and frustrated that nearly every post game thread leads with the running commentary on Marcus and his poor shooting.

Lets be clear he is MARGINALLY off from last year, but it is way to early to say his shooting has regressed enough to be a concern. If he hits ONE MORE SHOT PER GAME - he will right back to his career average of 36%.

Meanwhile he is a better rebounder, better assist man, has less turnovers, is showing great leadership and and maturity by not complaining to the refs at all (ZERO technical fouls to date) - by any measure other than FG%, he is having his best season. And Brad Stevens agrees.


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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by worcester on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:35 pm

100% correct MrKleen
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by k_j_88 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:45 pm

21 games is a solid sample size. It's more than 1/4 through the regular season. Let's just face it: Smart has shot like shit for the brunt of these games. I refuse to slip on a pair of Kelly Green shades when it comes to this.

For him, 7/8 FG is really an anomaly, and not something to expect on a consistent basis. I for one would be happy if he could manage even pedestrian numbers from the field. But shooting around 26% at a high volume is unacceptable. At 35% FG we'd win these games by 15-20 points instead of 8-10.

Not having Hayward means everyone else needs to carry their own weight offensively. Slow starts are not what any team should strive for in the first half of their games. Going against professional talent and mounting comebacks night in and night out is not a simple task.


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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:02 pm

k_j_88 wrote:At 35% FG we'd win these games by 15-20 points instead of 8-10.

KJ

Sorry KJ - if you are taking about Marcus Smart, this is a bit off.

Smart this year so far is 55 for 189 = 29.1%

Marcus has played in 19 games in total.

If he made 1 more shot per game in those 19 games, that would be 74 for 208 = 35.5%

Even if we made everyone of those shots a 3 pointer - that would only be 3 additional points a night

Right now the Celtics have a 7.8 point differential vs. opponents. Adding 3 would make that 10.8, which is not a 15 or 20 point difference.

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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by Phil Pressey on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:27 pm

Smart has proven he can hit free throws. That helps. He doesn't seem marginally but much worse at shooting.

He seemed to also tail off a bit with his pg skills while hitting rock bottom for jump shots. I think his losing weight and working specifically on his shooting in the off-season, then he shoots game after game 1-11, 3-15, to me that was very frustrating.

Avery Bradley became great but still got traded. I've seen at least 20 comments on the internet saying pretty much Danny would trade his mom to Siberia if he could pick up a nice draft pick or player.

I have started to question Brad with this as much as Smart. Quotes have come out recently making it obvious this is not Antoine Walker 2.0 and Smart is doing what they want him to.
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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by bobheckler on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:28 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:
k_j_88 wrote:At 35% FG we'd win these games by 15-20 points instead of 8-10.

KJ

Sorry KJ - if you are taking about Marcus Smart, this is a bit off.

Smart this year so far is 55 for 189 = 29.1%

Marcus has played in 19 games in total.  

If he made 1 more shot per game in those 19 games, that would be 74 for 208 = 35.5%

Even if we made everyone of those shots a 3 pointer - that would only be 3 additional points a night

Right now the Celtics have a 7.8 point differential vs. opponents.  Adding 3 would make that 10.8, which is not a 15 or 20 point difference.



If Marcus Smart could make the next fga he takes then why not take two more?  Or three more?  The reality is he is shooting 29.1% and, therefore, the likelihood of him hitting his next one is not good.  Saying "if he took one more fga/game and hit it his fg% would be X%" is beyond speculation, it's fantasy.  The reason why he's shooting 29% is NOT because he's a likely candidate to hit his next fga, it's because if he takes 100 fgas he's a likely candidate to only hit 29 of them.

The Celtics are 23rd in the league in fgas at 84.6/game.  One more fga/game would move them up to 12th.  That's what one more fga/game means.  Why waste that on a non-shooter?

Smart is taking 9.9 fgas/game, a career high, even as he shoots a career low 29.1%.  If he took 1 less fga/game that would take him down to 8.9 fgas/game, which is just above his career average of 8.6.  Let Rozier take that shot instead, and bring the team fgas/game back up to 84.6/game.  He's shooting 38.1% and 36.5% from 3 if that's what it is, and over the past two games he has been shooting 70%.  Why would you ask the worst shooter in the league every year he has been in the league to take an additional fga when everybody else is a better shooter, when you have a guard who is shooting red-hot and has been shooting red-hot for two games and not just one?  And that just brings us back to 23rd place.  If we can play with a better pace, maybe fewer TOs, we can add that extra fga but let Kyrie or Morris or Horford or the Man on the Moon take it.


bob


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Re: POST GAME - INDY - AWAY

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:52 pm

bobheckler wrote:

If Marcus Smart could make the next fga he takes then why not take two more?  Or three more?  The reality is he is shooting 29.1% and, therefore, the likelihood of him hitting his next one is not good.  Saying "if he took one more fga/game and hit it his fg% would be X%" is beyond speculation, it's fantasy.  The reason why he's shooting 29% is NOT because he's a likely candidate to hit his next fga, it's because if he takes 100 fgas he's a likely candidate to only hit 29 of them.

.

False. He is a CAREER 35% shooter - which is where I got the one shot more per game. For someone with such a statistical background, you are having trouble following simple math.

Marcus Smart has a 226 game sample size that says he AVERAGES 35% shooting. Now the same guy who lectured me on "trends" earlier is claiming that 19 games shooting 29% is a better indicator than the 226 gamers prior when he shot 35%?

Over time - Smart will settle in close to or at his career average. He will NOT finish the season at 29%.

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