would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by sinus007 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:39 am

NYCelt,
Sometimes it doesn't matter how many minutes or games a player played. When GH went down the team rallied together, they used it as a very strong motivation. I believe that it did contribute to the 16-2 start. Now, if you trade GH you not only take it away but virtually shit on it. I know that NBA players understand that it's business. But human emotions still are a very important factor.
Look, I don't have any formal education in psychology let alone professional team psychology, but I'm pretty sure that getting rid of a fallen comrade will not bode well with the players.

AK
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by cowens/oldschool on Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:59 am

Keep Hayward, he’s still a young all star, if he can be the player that avg 24 points per game in his last playoff that’s a lot of offense, he’s probably no worse than Klay Thompson and and he’s bigger. He would look really good paired with Jaylen or Jayson, resting one of them or playing with both. The odd man out might have to be Rozier or Smart, as Hayward’s history is he’s way more productive than either offensively. With Hayward, Brown and Tatum that’s unprecedented wings 2 3 and sometimes Tatum will play the 4. You have to prove Hayward can play either way, so might as well see how it works. It will only help the offense a lot more with those 3 and Kyrie and both Rozier and Smart have their strengths as more traditional guards that are very young energetic gritty athletic players that are still contributing and finding their niche.
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by Ktronic1 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:24 am

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
I’ll put myself into “it’s a very bad idea- not going to happen “ camp.
The only players I’d consider to trade GH for are AD, KD or Freak
In addition to all other arguments against, there’s a strong possibility that this trade cripples if not completely destroys team’s chemistry

AK
Ditto! Not only that. Good luck at ever luring a big time free agent to Boston ever again! Not only is this deal unneccasary it makes the Celtics look really bad.
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by kdp59 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:31 am

so the consensus here seems to be lets see what a lineup of
Horford
Tatum
Hayward
Brown
Irving

can do .

That is one impressive group of starters for sure and they should be able to compete with teams with no big men easily.

Keeping Smart here next year may be problematic as a FA though. as we are already at $107M in salary next year. I hate to see him go, as I think he has won a lot of games for use with his defense and "hard nosed" play . he is also 4th on the team in minutes played

Standing pat may be the wise move for sure, but I hope if they do re-signing Smart and Baynes are part of the deal (we'll need them both)
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by kdp59 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 am

Ktronic1 wrote:
sinus007 wrote:Hi,
I’ll put myself into “it’s a very bad idea- not going to happen “ camp.
The only players I’d consider to trade GH for are AD, KD or Freak
In addition to all other arguments against, there’s a strong possibility that this trade cripples if not completely destroys team’s chemistry

AK
Ditto! Not only that. Good luck at ever luring a big time free agent to Boston ever again! Not only is this deal unneccasary it makes the Celtics look really bad.

we won't be signing any big dollar free agents for a while now. Well over the cap and we'll have to pay Smart, then Irving , then Brown in each of the following years.

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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by jrleftfoot on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:08 am

Good  discussion . Draft a big . Develop him . Stating the obvious,free agency and trades are not the only ways to build a team. I don`t watch a lot of college ball, but I am told that there are a lot of good  big men in next year`s draft. Any thoughts about Porzingis public pronouncement that he is " tired." Who isn`t at this stage of the season? I s there any way he can add some muscle and would that help his stamina?
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:21 am

NYCelt wrote:

For all the talk about change in the way the game is played in the NBA, I see very little of it. The Celtics haven't moved toward a position-less type of lineup at all.


Could not disagree more.

As you watch the Celtics play defense, they are constantly passing off the player they are guarding to the next guy. Nearly everyone from Brown, to Tatum, to Al, to Thice, to Smart and Rozier - can guard all but the biggest players on the opposition, at least for a few seconds until they can readjust.

On offense, you see Tatum and Horford bringing the ball up - Smart posting up with Thice spotting up for 3. If that isnt positionless basketball, not sure what is.

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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by dboss on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:45 am

It would be difficult to make an argument that Boston's defense is a problem.  They are after all #1 in least points allowed.  That is a fact.

Could we use a rim protector and rebounder in the middle.  Absolutely.  So the question is how do we get that piece?  

Teams rarely get equal value in trades when the main focal point is acquiring a certain player that provide very specific skills that you need.  The value of the player may command more from one team than the other.  But it is probably a lot more complicated than that.  Salaries, age, length of contracts, team needs as well as long term and short term goals must be considered.  

Are the Celtics a frivolous team that would court a player like Hayward, reunite him with his college coach, gut a significant portion of their roster to free cap space, convince the kid to move his family across country and then decide to trade him back to the same team he came from?  And do this for a player that does not check a lot of boxes?  Do you do this even though the vision embraces positionless basketball and a roster being built with multi dimensional players?  Future free agents would be reluctant to sign with Boston if the Celtics traded Hayward anytime soon.

This roster is not overstacked with wings because those wings are able to play multiple positions.  The Celtics are having a great season by any standards but make no mistake about it they miss Hayward more than they miss having a defensive minded center.    Hayward is not just some guy that averaged 20 PPG.  He is a player that is also a ball handler and one that can create for himself as well as his teammates.  You can never have enough of those players on your team.  

If Gobert was a modern day center with a measure of offensive skills, I still would be reluctant to trade him for Hayward.    Trading IT was one thing but trading Hayward after this season would be the most cynical  thing the Celtics could do.  We do not need a center like a Gobert bad enough to compromise the integrity of this franchise.

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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by sinus007 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:56 am

Hi,
Regarding $$$. I think it's up to Danny. If he decides that Smart, for instance, is crucial to getting #18, he'll give him whatever it takes to keep Smart in green. My understanding is that Wyc, Pag & Co. gave Danny carte blanche if he can bring a banner or more. So far, all indicators are - he can.

AK
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by Shamrock1000 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:59 am

dboss wrote:

Are the Celtics a frivolous team that would court a player like Hayward, reunite him with his college coach, gut a significant portion of their roster to free cap space, convince the kid to move his family across country and then decide to trade him back to the same team he came from?

dboss

Danny would trade anyone if he thought it would make the Celtics better....

I doubt Gordon will be traded, but the team is still slightly unbalanced - they are thin on Bigs. I wouldn't be surprised if Danny eventually does some shuffling to balance things out, but I have learned that trying to predict what Danny will do is a losing game.

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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by dboss on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:37 pm

Shamrock1000 wrote:
dboss wrote:

Are the Celtics a frivolous team that would court a player like Hayward, reunite him with his college coach, gut a significant portion of their roster to free cap space, convince the kid to move his family across country and then decide to trade him back to the same team he came from?

dboss

Danny would trade anyone if he thought it would make the Celtics better....

I doubt Gordon will be traded, but the team is still slightly unbalanced - they are thin on Bigs. I wouldn't be surprised if Danny eventually does some shuffling to balance things out, but I have learned that trying to predict what Danny will do is a losing game.

Rock

I do not disagree that we need a center. I disagree that the Celtics should trade Hayward for Gobert and I disagree that we have too many wings given their interchangeable utilization.

I think the reason why more attention is being paid to the prospect of getting the LA pick is because Boston may have a great opportunity to address their long term needs at center.

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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by NYCelt on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:59 pm

OK, I'm the evil one here!

I seriously would trade Hayward in a heartbeat if it brought back a legit center, or high enough pick to get Ayton. I don't think we need him if we have that center. The circumstances since we acquired Hayward have changed significantly. That's life, and life in sports from the amateur ranks up through the pros.

Think back to when you last took the field or court; chemistry is relatively easy and way over analyzed by the layman. I never cared who was beside me at short or in front of me at linebacker, I only cared that he made our team stronger. I wanted to know he could get the ball to me low over the bag or cover that tight end coming through the gap if I was going off the end on the blitz. I knew that everyone, including me, was there as long as we were needed, and top dog at our spot. Sentiment has no place on the field of play. Winning, as Lombardi said, is the only thing.

I'm fairly sure Hayward will take the court as a Celtic next year. I'm also fairly sure as many as two among Tatum, Brown, Smart and Rozier will not. We're trying to become a champion. We're not likely to have a high enough draft pick to get the center everyone wants without a trade. We're also not getting a well established big without a trade. We have too many wings, and you need to trade value to get value.

I also think this is a great debate. This forum was created, in part, to foster original thought. Nice to see a topic like this get brought up. I would encourage more of the same!

Regards
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by NYCelt on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:22 pm

MrKleen,

Ah, you know I love debating with you Very Happy

The Celtics have never played less than three position basketball that I've seen, at least not this year.

For true position-less basketball, watch SMU this year, or go back to D'Antoni's Phoenix teams. Golden State has a particular unit that runs it, and Cleveland sometimes comes dangerously close. Doesn't matter who brings the ball up, bigs can, it doesn't make it position-less.

Position-less basketball mostly employs a 4-out or even 5-out on offense. Then it's cut on pass or on over-play/over-read. No point, no center, no forwards. I've heard a debate it's also a three out, but I don't buy that since you typically employ high and low post players. Sounds like a center and power forward to me. I have my son's AAU team running a 3-out, and we sure have a center and a power forward, just not a point, so I consider it 3-position. The Celtics sometimes do go that direction. If you're someone who defines that as position-less, then OK.

Anyway, just my view.

Regards

Edit: I have to say that many do consider The 76ers use of Simmons a precursor to their going position-less.
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by dboss on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:16 pm

NYCelt

99% of the time I am on the same page with you on all things related to basketball and in particular the Boston Celtics but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around a few things.

While I do agree with the need to get a center I do not see the need to use any of our core players to do that.  I do not believe Boston should trade  Hayward, or Tatum or Brown for that matter to secure the draft right to Ayton.  I would also be reluctant to trade Rozier and I am not mentioning Smart because he is a RFA this summer and unlikely to be traded unless it happens in February or turns into an agreed upon sign and trade deal.

I want to see Hayward, Brown and Tatum play together on this team along with Irving and Horford.  I think the development of Rozier has shown a more definitive direction and I think Marcus Smart is the glue that binds this team together.

I think that the last two drafts have provided the Celtics with a great pair of wings that will help them fly to the top of the mountain.  I do not think that two among Tatum, Brown, Smart and Rozier will not be on the Celtics next year.  I think it is more probable that Marcus Smart may not be on the team because of the luxury tax.  

I also think that the Celtics best and most cost effective way to add a center is the 2018 draft.  I do believe that Boston will in fact secure the Laker's pick.  That is obviously not an absolute but there seems to be a higher probability 1/2 way through the season than it was when LA was 5-5.

I think Danny has already acquired the players that he needs to fit into Brad's system.  They fit both the system as well as the timeline for an extended run.  

I know things can change rapidly and all you have to do is reference the IT trade.  In other words it does not matter what either of us think because Danny never stops making trades.

At 31-10 it may be too soon to break up the band.  Add a horn or two but keep the keyboard player and the rest of the band together.  

dboss
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Re: would you trade Hayward for Gobert after this season?

Post by k_j_88 on Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:29 pm

It's too damn early to think about trading Gordon.

As it stands know, we still don't know how truly good this team is at full strength. We also have the draft coming up. Sometimes, the best move is the one you don't make, and I think it's time we give the dust a chance to settle here.



KJ
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