REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

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REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by Sandpd on Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:19 pm

If this trade actually takes place, it will "undoubtedly" tip the scales in the Cavs' favor:

https://sportsnaut.com/2018/01/report-cavaliers-undoubtedly-interested-trading-deandre-jordan/
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:16 pm

Guess I dont understand the salary cap at all.  

Cleveland is already at $122.5 million in salaries for 2017-18.  That is 21 million over the cap.  

How can they possibly be allowed to add another 23 million dollar a year player?

I understand the soft cap giving you ability to go over to sign your own players, but if you are that much over- you should be done signing anything but veteran minimum deals. Otherwise the cap is nothing but a joke.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:39 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Guess I dont understand the salary cap at all.  

Cleveland is already at $122.5 million in salaries for 2017-18.  That is 21 million over the cap.  

How can they possibly be allowed to add another 23 million dollar a year player?

I understand the soft cap giving you ability to go over to sign your own players, but if you are that much over- you should be done signing anything but veteran minimum deals.  Otherwise the cap is nothing but a joke.  
They would be moving Tristan
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by Sandpd on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:41 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Guess I dont understand the salary cap at all.  

Cleveland is already at $122.5 million in salaries for 2017-18.  That is 21 million over the cap.  

How can they possibly be allowed to add another 23 million dollar a year player?

I understand the soft cap giving you ability to go over to sign your own players, but if you are that much over- you should be done signing anything but veteran minimum deals.  Otherwise the cap is nothing but a joke.  

I don't have a good understanding of the intricacies of the salary cap either. Maybe someone can conjecture if this is possible and/or even feasible.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:45 pm

16 million for 23 million? Still dont get it.

Once they go over the cap, Cleveland (or anyone) should be hard capped - or should have to give up players equal to the 23 that Jordan makes.

In my opinion it sets up an uneven playing field - teams like GS can get KD to agree to a less than market value contract (should not be allowed), so they can resign Livingston and Iquodala - and then offer him a max deal going over the cap to retain their own player. I will never see the fairness in this, might as well just have no cap if that is the case.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:48 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:16 million for 23 million? Still dont get it.

Once they go over the cap, Cleveland (or anyone) should be hard capped - or should have to give up players equal to the 23 that Jordan makes.

In my opinion it sets up an uneven playing field - teams like GS can get KD to agree to a less than market value contract (should not be allowed), so they can resign Livingston and Iquodala - and then offer him a max deal going over the cap to retain their own player.  I will never see the fairness in this, might as well just have no cap if that is the case.
They would have to move Thompson and another player.  They need around 20,500,000 going out or 125% plus $100k
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:49 pm

Add Frye to the mix
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:55 pm

Thompson and Frye works.  Frye has an expiring contract.  LAC also get the not so Golden Nets pick.

Cleveland in obvious desperation mode.

What a dumb ass team.

Dboss
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by kdp59 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 pm

rumor I read said LAC wants IT ( need Thompson's salary also)

OR

they want Nets pick with Thompson.

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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by bobheckler on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:14 pm

kdp59 wrote:rumor I read said LAC wants IT ( need Thompson's salary also)

OR

they want Nets pick with Thompson.



Kdp,

Picks have no $ value until set and that won't happen until after the lottery which happens after the trading deadline. So Thompson plus another player would still be required, I believe, with or without the Nets pick.



bob


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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by swish on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:36 pm

bobheckler wrote:
kdp59 wrote:rumor I read said LAC wants IT ( need Thompson's salary also)

OR

they want Nets pick with Thompson.



Kdp,

Picks have no $ value until set and that won't happen until after the lottery which happens after the trading deadline.  So Thompson plus another player would still be required, I believe, with or without the Nets pick.



bob


.

All true bob - and certainly a doable trade.

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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:56 pm

dboss wrote:
They would have to move Thompson and another player.  They need around 20,500,000 going out or 125% plus $100k

Gotcha - that makes sense.

Still dont like the KD type scenario where you take less to play with a superteam, and then get it back on the back end - but I guess that is what the NBA wants.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:01 pm

KD was a free agent Kleen.  I do not see a relevant comparison
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by Sandpd on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:30 pm

WoJo has thrown some ice water on this brewing trade possibility:

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/trade-market-sluggish-deandre-jordan/#AgXkxOQcyPv7uqCR.97
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:45 pm

dboss wrote:KD was a free agent Kleen.  I do not see a relevant comparison

I agree in the sense that if he wants to sell his services for less than market value - that may be his prerogative (under current rules) But that cant be good for the value and marketability of the overall NBA. Discussing allowing superstars to take less than their market value to help form "super teams" is most certainly relevant in a salary cap discussion.

If I want to give you my new Mercedes for a dollar that is up to me. But the IRS will call bullshit on the transaction and I will pay taxes on the 80K value of the car, not on the 1 dollar I charged you. Same should be true for the NBA.

The only way GS keeps Igodala and Livingston the last two years, was by KD taking less and giving them the flexibility to pay those two by using money he left on the table. In addition he helped the owners of the Warriors avoid nearly 20 million in luxury tax payments to the NBA


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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by swish on Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:40 pm

Sometimes there are passions that are more important then money - and in those rare occasions there are unexpected winners and losers.

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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:10 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:
dboss wrote:KD was a free agent Kleen.  I do not see a relevant comparison

I agree in the sense that if he wants to sell his services for less than market value - that may be his prerogative (under current rules)  But that cant be good for the value and marketability of the overall NBA.  Discussing allowing superstars to take less than their market value to help form "super teams" is most certainly relevant in a salary cap discussion.

If I want to give you my new Mercedes for a dollar that is up to me.  But the IRS will call bullshit on the transaction and I will pay taxes on the 80K value of the car, not on the 1 dollar I charged you.  Same should be true for the NBA.  

The only way GS keeps Igodala and Livingston the last two years, was by KD taking less and giving them the flexibility to pay those two by using money he left on the table.  In addition he helped the owners of the Warriors avoid nearly 20 million in luxury tax payments to the NBA


Kleen but we are talking about him being traded.  Cavs want him
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:37 am

swish wrote:Sometimes there are passions that are more important then money - and in those rare occasions there are unexpected winners and losers.

 swish

Any my point is, in deference to competition and not allowing teams to game the system, there should be limits to what is allowed.


dboss wrote: Kleen but we are talking about him being traded.  Cavs want him

I know fully what we are talking about and every point I had in this thread was about the SALARY CAP, so they are all related.  

My underlying point is that the NBA salary cap is inherently unfair and there are too many ways for rich teams to get around it.  I guess that was what the NBA wanted, or else they would have a hard cap vs the soft cap they have.  So I suppose I am complaining about a ship that has long since sailed.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by wideclyde on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:24 am

I am far from an expert on anything, but I do know that if Durant wants to play for $22M instead of $29M
he still will not have to worry about being able to put food on his family's table any time soon.

Hasn't Tom Brady downgraded his yearly salary a few times to help the Patriots to stay under the NFL cap?

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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:38 am

wideclyde wrote:I am far from an expert on anything, but I do know that if Durant wants to play for $22M instead of $29M
he still will not have to worry about being able to put food on his family's table any time soon.

Hasn't Tom Brady downgraded his yearly salary a few times to help the Patriots to stay under the NFL cap?

Yes, Tom Brady has done that - but the NFL has a hard cap, so whatever he gives back (so to speak) is all the Patriots have to spend.

The Bird Rights and the Soft Cap in the NBA is a whole different ball game. A team can squeak under the cap by getting a friendly short term deal (like with KD) and then go way above the cap to resign their own players - win a few more titles, and then pay KD much more on the next renewal.

It starts with a star being willing to accept less, so I agree most of this is up to KD or Lebron or whomever we are talking about to begin the process.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mulcogiseng on Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:14 am

Once, a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I had a job working as the Level I evaluator of a federally funded rural school program. When the initial 3 year contract came to an end I was out of a job. I found it impossible to get employed because I was considered too expensive. I had a Master's degree and 3 years of experience which put me 4 steps up on the pay scale and the NEA wouldn't grant me an exception so I could stay employed. I was pissed and still am to this day, nearly 45 years later.

If any person wants to take less money to do the job at hand then that should be their option. I remember when players had no option and were considered property to be bought, sold, or traded. If, for instance, Smart wanted to sign a very friendly contract with the Celtics, that should be his option. None of the leagues business unless their business is to rig the system. That's another debate.

The whole idea of the luxury tax is to level the playing field so that small market teams can still find a way to attract players and compete. The rich always have an advantage. If they want, they can pay the tax at a dollar for a dollar and if they do that, they have an advantage on paper. It used to be called a home town discount. I see no reason to change things. I applaud KD for taking less money so that he could play where he wanted. Under the CBA he had earned that right.

This trend really got started when LeBron took his talent to Miami. He handled it poorly but he was well within his rights to do so. It used to be the owners who dictated terms, now the players have power to change the direction of the league. I'd call that progress.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by mrkleen09 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:05 pm

To equate the story of a working man, lowering his salary expectations to become employed - with a player taking 23 million a year instead of 29 million is a bit of a stretch - but sorry you had to endure that Mulcogiseng.

I think it is disingenuous to try and make this a black and white matter - you are either with the oppressed players or you are with the oppressive owners.  In reality the story is much more nuanced.

I do agree that for years (and in many other sports this is still the case) the owners held all the cards, and the small steps towards parity is one of the reasons I like the NBA above all other leagues.  

But if the NBA wants to continue its growth and keep fans in every franchise city interested in the product and their chances of being relevant - the owners and players will need to continue to tweak the formula.  Players make so much money off the court, that they would be more valuable in marketing terms - playing in bigger cities with other stars.

Lets use an example.  The Celtics work their asses off the build from the ground up, turning assets from the 2008 team into picks that turn into a contender.  At the same time, the Lakers make every mistake in the book and have a awful team.  Wouldnt you be pissed if Paul George, Lebron James and Chris Paul all agreed to sign minimum deals in LA so they could compete with the Celtics?

Progress without logical guardrails is doomed to cause new problems in my opinion.
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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by swish on Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:22 pm

Fortunately, professional athletes are not the only people that get to choose other factors over financial gain.

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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by swish on Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:17 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:To equate the story of a working man, lowering his salary expectations to become employed - with a player taking 23 million a year instead of 29 million is a bit of a stretch - but sorry you had to endure that Mulcogiseng.

I think it is disingenuous to try and make this a black and white matter - you are either with the oppressed players or you are with the oppressive owners.  In reality the story is much more nuanced.

I do agree that for years (and in many other sports this is still the case) the owners held all the cards, and the small steps towards parity is one of the reasons I like the NBA above all other leagues.  

But if the NBA wants to continue its growth and keep fans in every franchise city interested in the product and their chances of being relevant - the owners and players will need to continue to tweak the formula.  Players make so much money off the court, that they would be more valuable in marketing terms - playing in bigger cities with other stars.

Lets use an example.  The Celtics work their asses off the build from the ground up, turning assets from the 2008 team into picks that turn into a contender.  At the same time, the Lakers make every mistake in the book and have a awful team.  Wouldnt you be pissed if Paul George, Lebron James and Chris Paul all agreed to sign minimum deals in LA so they could compete with the Celtics?

Progress without logical guardrails is doomed to cause new problems in my opinion.


mrkleen

In regard to your below statement
"Lets use an example. The Celtics work their asses off the build from the ground up, turning assets from the 2008 team into picks that turn into a contender. At the same time, the Lakers make every mistake in the book and have a awful team. Wouldnt you be pissed if Paul George, Lebron James and Chris Paul all agreed to sign minimum deals in LA so they could compete with the Celtics?

Progress without logical guardrails is doomed to cause new problems in my opinion."

I suspect that the guardrails already exist - in the hands of the current Commissioner who could veto the move just like Baseball commissioner Bowie Kuhn did in 1976 when he vetoed the Sale of stars from Oahland to the Red Sox and Yankees - based on the clause " NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF BASEBALL (substitute Basketball).

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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:48 pm

Kleen

In the end the rules apply to all teams.  From time to time a smart team games the system and then down the road a new rule is added.

Teams that are well managed do best irregardless of their market size.

All teams are rich because their owners are rich. Poor people do not have any skin in the game. Some teams do not mind paying the luxury tax while others avoid hitting the tax threshold.  Some NBA Luxury tax dollars are redistributed to nontax paying teams.  I think the system works because rich teams pay a high price for spending a lot of money on salaries.

The NBA has established minimum and maximum salaries.  Those salaries are negotiated between a team and in most cases the representative of the player.  So if KD signs a one year contract and then gets a new one the following year for big money I do not have an issue with that.  Golden State has a huge tax bill to pay but that is the cost for keeping a great product on the court.

This thread is about Jordan being traded to Cleveland and how the salaries of players would have to be used to make the transaction work.  

I do not agree that the NBA Salary Cap in unfair.  The current system as it relates to the salary cap does not impedes competition.  

Dumb ass teams impede themselves like Brooklyn trading away their future to Boston or Memphis over paying for Chandler Parsons.  Teams that spend a lot of money do not necessarily improved themselves regardless if they are a rich big market team.

Lucky for Celtics fans they are a well managed team and they may become a tax payer in order to keep a great roster together.  

dboss


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Re: REPORT: CAVALIERS ‘UNDOUBTEDLY’ INTERESTED IN TRADING FOR DEANDRE JORDAN

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