Ainge Needs An Upgrade

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Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 11:12 am

Right now the Cavs are back in the Finals and if they win another championship, Lebron might not leave at all.

Back in 2016, the Warriors lost to the Cavs in Game 7 of the 2016 Finals.
They then got Kevin Durant in free-agency so that they will have an answer for Lebron.

Right now the Celts don't have anybody that can guard Lebron.
Brown, Tatum, or even Morris can't guard Lebron.
Ainge needs to find an answer for Lebron.

So far the only player who had success defending Lebron is Kawhi Leonard.
He's also available.
Very similar to Kyrie's situation with the Cavs last summer.

Ainge has the assets to get Kawhi.
An offer of Jaylen Brown, Rozier, and the 2019 Kings pick or 2019 Memphis pick should be a good starting point.
Other players will also have to be included for salaries to match.

Celts will have a starting 5 of:

C - Horford
PF - Tatum
SF - Kawhi
SG - Hayward
PG - Kyrie

6th man - Smart

A lineup like that will even be better than what GSW has.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon May 28, 2018 11:22 am

Surely you realize Kevin Durant can’t cover Lebron either.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by worcester on Mon May 28, 2018 11:23 am

But I doubt that KL is healthy, and the price you suggest is really steep.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by Ktronic1 on Mon May 28, 2018 11:24 am

fierce wrote:Right now the Cavs are back in the Finals and if they win another championship, Lebron might not leave at all.

Back in 2016, the Warriors lost to the Cavs in Game 7 of the 2016 Finals.
They then got Kevin Durant in free-agency so that they will have an answer for Lebron.

Right now the Celts don't have anybody that can guard Lebron.
Brown, Tatum, or even Morris can't guard Lebron.
Ainge needs to find an answer for Lebron.

So far the only player who had success defending Lebron is Kawhi Leonard.
He's also available.
Very similar to Kyrie's situation with the Cavs last summer.

Ainge has the assets to get Kawhi.
An offer of Jaylen Brown, Rozier, and the 2019 Kings pick or 2019 Memphis pick should be a good starting point.
Other players will also have to be included for salaries to match.

Celts will have a starting 5 of:

C - Horford
PF - Tatum
SF - Kawhi
SG - Hayward
PG - Kyrie

6th man - Smart

A lineup like that will even be better than what GSW has.

I like who we have but i could see doing the Brown, Rozier and one of those 1st for Kawhi. (If he is healthy)We may not have Smart next year either if what I’m hearing $ comes to fruition. Hope we have him.  I definitely would not give up Tatum!
Yes! That’s a very strong starting lineup if this should happen.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 28, 2018 11:35 am

1.  LeBron is 33 years old.  He will be 34 in December.  I know he is still playing at an unbelievably elite level but he can't do that for many more years.  

2.  We don't know where LeBron will be next year.  This trade scenario makes sense ONLY if he stays in the East.  If he moves to a WC team then the teams in that conference should trade for Kawhi, not us.

3.  If the rumors of Kawhi's medical condition being related to ossification are correct, then I don't want him at any price.  The same can be said if the other rumored diagnosis is the correct one.  The fact that there is still any question regarding wtf is going on after all these months, alone, is disturbing.

An excerpt from this article:
"According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification, or hardening, in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised, and then an atrophy, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

"The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion."

 
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2773680-kawhi-leonard-rumors-spurs-stars-camp-disagree-on-injury-diagnosis


I will defer to Dr. Worcester's prognosis, but NEITHER sounds very good long-term and trading away talent like you propose for a short-term fix to a 34 year old player makes no sense to me.  Let's see how GSW or Houston deals with LeBron.  Maybe they'll show us how they can beat him without either team having Kawhi.


bob



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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 12:31 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Surely you realize Kevin Durant can’t cover Lebron either.

But Lebron couldn't also cover KD either.

KD averaged 35.2 ppg in the 2017 Finals.
His lowest point total was 31 points.

The point the Warriors needed an upgrade after 2016.
They upgraded in the summer of 2016 and it resulted in another championship in 2017.

Celts need to do the same.

Right now the Celts need an upgrade.

In this day modern day NBA, if you can afford 4 or 5 All-Star players, you go for it!
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 12:34 pm

bobheckler wrote:1.  LeBron is 33 years old.  He will be 34 in December.  I know he is still playing at an unbelievably elite level but he can't do that for many more years.  

2.  We don't know where LeBron will be next year.  This trade scenario makes sense ONLY if he stays in the East.  If he moves to a WC team then the teams in that conference should trade for Kawhi, not us.

3.  If the rumors of Kawhi's medical condition being related to ossification are correct, then I don't want him at any price.  The same can be said if the other rumored diagnosis is the correct one.  The fact that there is still any question regarding wtf is going on after all these months, alone, is disturbing.

An excerpt from this article:
"According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification, or hardening, in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised, and then an atrophy, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

"The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion."

 
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2773680-kawhi-leonard-rumors-spurs-stars-camp-disagree-on-injury-diagnosis


I will defer to Dr. Worcester's prognosis, but NEITHER sounds very good long-term and trading away talent like you propose for a short-term fix to a 34 year old player makes no sense to me.  Let's see how GSW or Houston deals with LeBron.  Maybe they'll show us how they can beat him without either team having Kawhi.


bob



.

This is not a short-term fix.

Kawhi is only 26 years old.

The only player considered to be old on this Celtics team is Al Horford.

Kyrie is 26 years old.

Hayward is 28 years old.

This is not a temporary solution.

Having Kyrie, Kawhi, Hayward, and Tatum will ensure the Celts will have 4 star players for the next 5 years.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 12:35 pm

Of course Ainge will have to do due diligence and check if Kawhi is really healthy.

If Kawhi is not healthy then no deal.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by kdp59 on Mon May 28, 2018 12:53 pm

I thought we already will add two all-stars from our playoff team this year?

Cool
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by sinus007 on Mon May 28, 2018 1:17 pm

Fierce,
I'm sorry but your logic is intrinsically wrong.
One of the reasons is that we didn't have our main scorer. I'm pretty sure that if KI was playing Celtics'd dispatch Cavs in 5 or 6 games.
Why do we need to gamble with KL when we already have all the pieces that can beat Lebron, especially considering that probability that he, at age 34, will be able to sustain 46-48 MPG is much lower than this year.

AK
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 1:26 pm

sinus007 wrote:Fierce,
I'm sorry but your logic is intrinsically wrong.
One of the reasons is that we didn't have our main scorer. I'm pretty sure that if KI was playing Celtics'd dispatch Cavs in 5 or 6 games.
Why do we need to gamble with KL when we already have all the pieces that can beat Lebron, especially considering that probability that he, at age 34, will be  able to sustain 46-48 MPG is much lower than this year.

AK

Having KL is not a gamble.

Look at Brad Stevens' team every year.

From Sully and Evan Turner to Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder to Kyrie and Tatum, every time the Celts got better players, the Celts performed better.

Sure we could have dispatched the Cavs in 5 or 6 games if Kyrie was healthy.
But could we dispatch GSW and their 4 star players in the Finals?

The point is if it's an upgrade you go for it.

Remember last summer when Ainge traded Isaiah for Kyrie?

There were Celtic fans here that got upset because why did Ainge trade IT when the Celts were already in the east finals with IT leading the way.

Right now Rozier and Brown are needed because Kyrie and Hayward are out.

When Kyrie and Hayward return, Rozier and Brown will get less playing time.

Sure Jaylen Brown can become a great player someday, but right now Kawhi is a sure thing, as long as he's healthy.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by dboss on Mon May 28, 2018 1:28 pm

Fierce, I agree that the Celtics do need an upgrade but it is in the middle not on the wings.

There is no player in the NBA that could stop lebron James one on one.  The Celtics team has not been rebuilt to beat LeBron James.  It has been built to compete in a new era of basketball.

Your suggestion is incomplete.

"Ainge has the assets to get Kawhi.
An offer of Jaylen Brown, Rozier, and the 2019 Kings pick or 2019 Memphis pick should be a good starting point.
Other players will also have to be included for salaries to match."

My question is other players like who?  You need $20 million in salaries and Jaylen and Rozier account for $8.2 Million.  Where does the other $12 million come from?  If you look at the combined salaries of Jaylen Brown. Rozier, Morris, Yabusele, Nadar, Semi and Theis that comes to around $20.4 million.

So you would have to gut your rotation assuming the Spurs would take on those players.  This is just not a realistic proposal and appears to be somewhat reactionary in light of a game 7 loss to the Cavs. The Celtics are not going to move 8 players and a potential lottery pick to get Leonard.

Aside from that do you think Boston is ready or willing to have 4 max level contracts on the team?  I do not.

I am more than pleased with the play of our wings even without the services of Hayward.  I think Leonard is a tremendous player but I have a strong feeling that our wings will be more than equal to the task at hand.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 1:32 pm

Kawhi Leonard is a Finals MVP and a 2-time defensive player of the year awardee.

He's a player who's proven he can score 20 points per game and can shut down the best player of the opposing team.

I don't see it as a gamble if we lose Rozier, Brown, draft pick/s, and even Morris for Kawhi.

It's an upgrade.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon May 28, 2018 1:38 pm

dboss wrote:Fierce, I agree that the Celtics do need an upgrade but it is in the middle not on the wings.

There is no player in the NBA that could stop lebron James one on one.  The Celtics team has not been rebuilt to beat LeBron James.  It has been built to compete in a new era of basketball.

Your suggestion is incomplete.

"Ainge has the assets to get Kawhi.
An offer of Jaylen Brown, Rozier, and the 2019 Kings pick or 2019 Memphis pick should be a good starting point.
Other players will also have to be included for salaries to match."

My question is other players like who?  You need $20 million in salaries and Jaylen and Rozier account for $8.2 Million.  Where does the other $12 million come from?  If you look at the combined salaries of Jaylen Brown. Rozier, Morris, Yabusele, Nadar, Semi and Theis that comes to around $20.4 million.

So you would have to gut your rotation assuming the Spurs would take on those players.  This is just not a realistic proposal and appears to be somewhat reactionary in light of a game 7 loss to the Cavs.  The Celtics are not going to move 8 players and a potential lottery pick to get Leonard.

Aside from that do you think Boston is ready or willing to have 4 max level contracts on the team?  I do not.

I am more than pleased with the play of our wings even without the services of Hayward.  I think Leonard is a tremendous player but I have a strong feeling that our wings will be more than equal to the task at hand.


Kawhi Leonard won Finals MVP in 2014 because of his defense on Lebron James.

Here's a trade for Kawhi that works.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybocyjyv

Regarding the Game 7 loss to the Cavs, it's not just about the Game 7 loss to the Cavs.
I'm sure the Celts would've beaten the Cavs this year if Kyrie was able to play.
Why I want Kawhi is so that the Celts can equal the talent level of GSW.
Even with Kyrie, I don't think the Celts can beat GSW.

And when it comes to winning championships, money should not be an issue.

Celtic owners already said they're willing to pay luxury if it's a significant upgrade.

You and I don't get to decide how many max players the Celts must have.
If the owners are wiling to pay then why not?

It's not coming out of our pockets anyway.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by dboss on Mon May 28, 2018 2:06 pm

fierce wrote:
dboss wrote:Fierce, I agree that the Celtics do need an upgrade but it is in the middle not on the wings.

There is no player in the NBA that could stop lebron James one on one.  The Celtics team has not been rebuilt to beat LeBron James.  It has been built to compete in a new era of basketball.

Your suggestion is incomplete.

"Ainge has the assets to get Kawhi.
An offer of Jaylen Brown, Rozier, and the 2019 Kings pick or 2019 Memphis pick should be a good starting point.
Other players will also have to be included for salaries to match."

My question is other players like who?  You need $20 million in salaries and Jaylen and Rozier account for $8.2 Million.  Where does the other $12 million come from?  If you look at the combined salaries of Jaylen Brown. Rozier, Morris, Yabusele, Nadar, Semi and Theis that comes to around $20.4 million.

So you would have to gut your rotation assuming the Spurs would take on those players.  This is just not a realistic proposal and appears to be somewhat reactionary in light of a game 7 loss to the Cavs.  The Celtics are not going to move 8 players and a potential lottery pick to get Leonard.

Aside from that do you think Boston is ready or willing to have 4 max level contracts on the team?  I do not.

I am more than pleased with the play of our wings even without the services of Hayward.  I think Leonard is a tremendous player but I have a strong feeling that our wings will be more than equal to the task at hand.


Kawhi Leonard won Finals MVP in 2014 because of his defense on Lebron James.

Here's a trade for Kawhi that works.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybocyjyv

Regarding the Game 7 loss to the Cavs, it's not just about the Game 7 loss to the Cavs.
I'm sure the Celts would've beaten the Cavs this year if Kyrie was able to play.
Why I want Kawhi is so that the Celts can equal the talent level of GSW.
Even with Kyrie, I don't think the Celts can beat GSW.

And when it comes to winning championships, money should not be an issue.

Celtic owners already said they're willing to pay luxury if it's a significant upgrade.

You and I don't get to decide how many max players the Celts must have.
If the owners are wiling to pay then why not?

It's not coming out of our pockets anyway.

Fierce I feel your passion for this but you cannot look at this without considering Salaries and Roster needs.

Careful with the strawman comment "You and I don't get to decide how many max players the Celts must have.
If the owners are wiling to pay then why not?"

I only asked the question and stated I did not think Boston will pay for for 4 max guys.  I was not attempting to make a decision.  My quote below.

Aside from that do you think Boston is ready or willing to have 4 max level contracts on the team?  I do not.

Fierce your argument is not compelling because you do not even want to address the roster situation that would happen if Boston did what you have suggested.

Least you forget, it was not just the absence of Kyrie that hurt us for winning a game 7.  Our other allstar Hayward missed the entire season.  After seeing what this team can do I am very convinced that they can play with any team including GS if Kyrie and Hayward are in the mix.

There is no good reason to fix something that ain't broke.


Last edited by dboss on Tue May 29, 2018 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 28, 2018 2:16 pm

Chris Forsberg
Chris Forsberg @ESPNForsberg
about 13 minutes ago
Danny Ainge on Boston’s summer: "I like this group of guys. We’re not looking to make changes other than just small tweaks here and there to our roster. We really do like this core group of guys that we’ve had all year."


bob


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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by dboss on Mon May 28, 2018 2:36 pm

bobheckler wrote:Chris Forsberg
Chris Forsberg @ESPNForsberg
about 13 minutes ago
Danny Ainge on Boston’s summer: "I like this group of guys. We’re not looking to make changes other than just small tweaks here and there to our roster. We really do like this core group of guys that we’ve had all year."


bob


.

Bob

One never can discount Danny's ability to Change course in a heartbeat.

He has 3 main things to consider this summer.

Resigning Marcus Smart and Baynes and picking # 27th in the draft. One of the partially guaranteed players is probably gone as well. Monroe is definitely gone.

The Celtics will be a top contender next year with a roster that includes:

Irving, Hayward, Horford, Tatum, Brown, Smart, Rozier, Morris, Baynes and Theis. Semi and Yabusele should also be in the mix along with the remaining end of roster guys.

Maybe Danny strikes gold with the 27th pick. It could happen.

Overall Danny does NOT have to make another huge deal but it could happen if the right deal reveals itself to him.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by k_j_88 on Mon May 28, 2018 3:00 pm

After a tough loss, there is a tendency to look at everything that is wrong and needs improvement. Last night's game truly left a bad taste in my mouth. But with that said, I also remembered the circumstances we played under. We went 7 games against CLE without 2 all stars and had a chance in the 7th game. So I'm not really too bitter at the moment.

I disagree with any notion that says we need Kawhi. We have two young wings at a fraction of the cost. Kyrie and Gordon will be back. We're good to go.

KJ
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon May 28, 2018 3:01 pm

fierce wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Surely you realize Kevin Durant can’t cover Lebron either.

But Lebron couldn't also cover KD either.

KD averaged 35.2 ppg in the 2017 Finals.
His lowest point total was 31 points.

The point the Warriors needed an upgrade after 2016.
They upgraded in the summer of 2016 and it resulted in another championship in 2017.

Celts need to do the same.

Right now the Celts need an upgrade.

In this day modern day NBA, if you can afford 4 or 5 All-Star players, you go for it!


This years playoffs have not seen the same production from Durant, especially in the 4th quarter recently, he gets to cover weakest match up, while Draymond and Igoudala contend with James.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 28, 2018 3:07 pm

dboss wrote:
bobheckler wrote:Chris Forsberg
Chris Forsberg @ESPNForsberg
about 13 minutes ago
Danny Ainge on Boston’s summer: "I like this group of guys. We’re not looking to make changes other than just small tweaks here and there to our roster. We really do like this core group of guys that we’ve had all year."


bob


.

Bob

One never can discount Danny's ability to Change course in a heartbeat.

He has 3 main things to consider this summer.

Resigning Marcus Smart and Baynes and picking # 27th in the draft.  One of the partially guaranteed players is probably gone as well.  Monroe is definitely gone.

The Celtics will be a top contender next year with a roster that includes:

Irving, Hayward, Horford, Tatum, Brown, Smart, Rozier, Morris, Baynes and Theis.  Semi and Yabusele should also be in the mix along with the remaining end of roster guys.

Maybe Danny strikes gold with the 27th pick.  It could happen.

Overall Danny does NOT have to make another huge deal but it could happen if the right deal reveals itself to him.



Dboss,

I just post'em, I don't necessarily agree or believe'em.

You would think making the Conference Finals would be a good reason to stand pat, wouldn't you?  And yet, Danny blew up last year's EC Finals team, bringing back only 4 players from that squad.

Danny might be as honest as the day is long in every other facet of his life, but when it comes to who is safe, who is untouchable, and who is/will be shopped I believe what he says about as far as I can throw him.



bob


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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by hawksnestbeach on Mon May 28, 2018 3:39 pm

IMO, the C's need another big man, after re-signing Baynes. Smart is a unique, lopsided talent. Hope he shows loyalty and stays for a reasonable salary. Right now, he's worth more than I'd pay, but he puts his BB life on the line nightly, could be out of commission unexpectedly again, so I wouldn't bet the farm. Hayward I'd trade in a heartbeat for the right deal, but if he comes back unimpaired, we're golden. Keep Kyrie, not only because he drives the C's, but because he'd hurt us elsewhere. The Js are matching cornerstones. Rozier came a long way this year, will continue to progress. We've got another year to evaluate. Bye bye, Morris: I think Semi will learn to shoot 3s faster than Morris will learn to move his feet. Horford is like a beautiful old car; he's not a truck and never will be. Keep Theis to play behind Horford and in the future possibly to replace him. Draft bpa at 27. Just a few thoughts now that I've stopped sputtering over the last four minutes last night. Hawk

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by dboss on Mon May 28, 2018 4:03 pm

hawksnestbeach wrote:IMO, the C's need another big man, after re-signing Baynes. Smart is a unique, lopsided talent. Hope he shows loyalty and stays for a reasonable salary. Right now, he's worth more than I'd pay, but he puts his BB life on the line nightly, could be out of commission unexpectedly again, so I wouldn't bet the farm. Hayward I'd trade in a heartbeat for the right deal, but if he comes back unimpaired, we're golden. Keep Kyrie, not only because he drives the C's, but because he'd hurt us elsewhere. The Js are matching cornerstones. Rozier came a long way this year, will continue to progress. We've got another year to evaluate. Bye bye, Morris: I think Semi will learn to shoot 3s faster than Morris will learn to move his feet. Horford is like a beautiful old car; he's not a truck and never will be. Keep Theis to play behind Horford and in the future possibly to replace him. Draft bpa at 27. Just a few thoughts now that I've stopped sputtering over the last four minutes last night. Hawk

Hawk

Yes we need an upgrade at the center spot most of all.

the price to do that by going after any existing centers and/or free agents is prohibitive.

I think the best opportunity would be to move up in the draft. (top guys I would love to see wearing green are (Bamba, Jackson or Carter)

Morris is still under contract for one more year but maybe as part of a move he gets traded. I just do not think his value is high enough.

If next year's draft was loaded with bigs it would be a good idea to retain the king's pick. But the 2019 draft does not have depth in the one area we need the most. So I think you have to trade the pick this year to move up in the draft and move a player if that is what it takes.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by Ktronic1 on Mon May 28, 2018 6:31 pm

bobheckler wrote:Chris Forsberg
Chris Forsberg @ESPNForsberg
about 13 minutes ago
Danny Ainge on Boston’s summer: "I like this group of guys. We’re not looking to make changes other than just small tweaks here and there to our roster. We really do like this core group of guys that we’ve had all year."


bob


.
. Where have I heard that before? :>))
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by worcester on Mon May 28, 2018 6:35 pm

Cher talking about her small tweaks..
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by swish on Mon May 28, 2018 6:51 pm

dboss

Deal from a surplus - to strengthen a weakness. One of the principles of the art of trading - especially when it applies to both parties in a trade.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

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