Ainge Needs An Upgrade

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by dboss on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:24 am

fierce wrote:I don't think the Bamba rumor is legit.

Here:

Mark Murphy: League source on Celtics’ reported interest in moving up to draft Mo Bamba: “Don’t waste your time on that one.” 22 hours ago – via Twitter Murf56
The rumor is legit.  They interviewed him knowing they would need to move up to get him.  Does not mean anything.  Danny will meet with a lot of players that are outside of their current draft position.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:20 am

dboss wrote:
fierce wrote:I don't think the Bamba rumor is legit.

Here:

Mark Murphy: League source on Celtics’ reported interest in moving up to draft Mo Bamba: “Don’t waste your time on that one.” 22 hours ago – via Twitter Murf56
The rumor is legit.  They interviewed him knowing they would need to move up to get him.  Does not mean anything.  Danny will meet with a lot of players that are outside of their current draft position.

Bamba is years away from becoming a contributor in the playoffs.

Celts are built to win now.

If the Celts would have to give up Jaylen and the 2019 Kings pick for Bamba, might as well go after Kawhi.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by dboss on Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:01 am

Fierce 

I think the Celtics can win now but are really built fir an extended campaign.

An entire narrative is being built around a meeting with Bamba.  Some posters are ok with parting with multiple first round picks and even a starting SG who is a stud and on the rise for a prospect that is a boom or bust guy.

Danny Ainge is not likely to tamper with his team by trading away a player like Jaylen.  

Danny may do nothing  in this draft other than interview a few prospects, bring a few in for workouts but end up just drafting at 27.  

Your KL obsession is a bit weird.  I think we need a pole.  KL for ?????
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by wideclyde on Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:38 am

Leonard is no where near enough of an upgrade for the Cs because he will cost either Brown or Tatum, plus other players to make the salaries work and some number one picks as well. Far too expensive when it is possible that both Brown and Tatum could be better than Leonard very soon.

He (Leonard) is/was a great player, but if nothing else is coming off a year of hardly playing so he is an injury risk which is strike two in even thinking of acquiring him.

A possible strike three is that if he really wasn't as injured, as some folks think, then he was gold bricking for the season.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by gyso on Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:05 am

fierce wrote:
dboss wrote:
fierce wrote:I don't think the Bamba rumor is legit.

Here:

Mark Murphy: League source on Celtics’ reported interest in moving up to draft Mo Bamba: “Don’t waste your time on that one.” 22 hours ago – via Twitter Murf56
The rumor is legit.  They interviewed him knowing they would need to move up to get him.  Does not mean anything.  Danny will meet with a lot of players that are outside of their current draft position.

Bamba is years away from becoming a contributor in the playoffs.

Celts are built to win now.

If the Celts would have to give up Jaylen and the 2019 Kings pick for Bamba, might as well go after Kawhi.

Bamba is a couple years away from being a contributor, I agree.  Celts are built to win now, I agree.  I don't think anyone here will include Jaylen in the trade for Bamba, so forget about that.  It is Rozier and draft picks or no deal.

We don't need Bamba to win now.  He can come off the bench on light duty until his body fully matures (growth plates, etc.).  He is an possible great player that can be ready for prime time after Horford is through.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:54 am

dboss wrote:Fierce 

I think the Celtics can win now but are really built fir an extended campaign.

An entire narrative is being built around a meeting with Bamba.  Some posters are ok with parting with multiple first round picks and even a starting SG who is a stud and on the rise for a prospect that is a boom or bust guy.

Danny Ainge is not likely to tamper with his team by trading away a player like Jaylen.  

Danny may do nothing  in this draft other than interview a few prospects, bring a few in for workouts but end up just drafting at 27.  

Your KL obsession is a bit weird.  I think we need a pole.  KL for ?????

It's not an obsession.

Right now KL is the most realistic star player the Celts can get.

Anthony Davis or Karl Towns is a pipe dream.

Only reason why I'm saying Kawhi is because he's available.

Last year nobody expected the Cavs to trade Kyrie.
It was only after Kyrie announced he wanted out of Cleveland that he became available.
If Kyrie didn't want out of Cleveland, there was ZERO chance the Celts would get him.

All I'm saying is if it's possible to add another star player, Ainge should do it.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:56 am

wideclyde wrote:Leonard is no where near enough of an upgrade for the Cs because he will cost either Brown or Tatum, plus other players to make the salaries work and some number one picks as well.  Far too expensive when it is possible that both Brown and Tatum could be better than Leonard very soon.

He (Leonard) is/was a great player, but if nothing else is coming off a year of hardly playing so he is an injury risk which is strike two in even thinking of acquiring him.

A possible strike three is that if he really wasn't as injured, as some folks think, then he was gold bricking for the season.

Tatum is special, so he's not available.

Reason why I'm saying Jaylen Brown is he won't be playing in crunch time.

Brad Stevens will play Kyrie, Hayward, Tatum, Horford, and Smart in the last 5 minutes of a playoff game.

Having Brown on the bench is useless.

If you have a healthy Kawhi Leonard, you don't need Brown, Rozier, and Smart.

And Ainge should only trade for Kawhi if he's healthy.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:58 am

gyso wrote:
fierce wrote:
dboss wrote:
fierce wrote:I don't think the Bamba rumor is legit.

Here:

Mark Murphy: League source on Celtics’ reported interest in moving up to draft Mo Bamba: “Don’t waste your time on that one.” 22 hours ago – via Twitter Murf56
The rumor is legit.  They interviewed him knowing they would need to move up to get him.  Does not mean anything.  Danny will meet with a lot of players that are outside of their current draft position.

Bamba is years away from becoming a contributor in the playoffs.

Celts are built to win now.

If the Celts would have to give up Jaylen and the 2019 Kings pick for Bamba, might as well go after Kawhi.

Bamba is a couple years away from being a contributor, I agree.  Celts are built to win now, I agree.  I don't think anyone here will include Jaylen in the trade for Bamba, so forget about that.  It is Rozier and draft picks or no deal.

We don't need Bamba to win now.  He can come off the bench on light duty until his body fully matures (growth plates, etc.).  He is an possible great player that can be ready for prime time after Horford is through.

gyso

If it will only cost the Celtics Rozier and pick or picks then I'm all for it.

But I doubt Memphis or Dallas would want Rozier when they have PGs like Conley and Dennis Smith.

Maybe Orlando, but I don't think Bamba will last until #6.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by Ktronic1 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:40 pm

fierce wrote:
gyso wrote:
fierce wrote:
dboss wrote:
fierce wrote:I don't think the Bamba rumor is legit.

Here:

Mark Murphy: League source on Celtics’ reported interest in moving up to draft Mo Bamba: “Don’t waste your time on that one.” 22 hours ago – via Twitter Murf56
The rumor is legit.  They interviewed him knowing they would need to move up to get him.  Does not mean anything.  Danny will meet with a lot of players that are outside of their current draft position.

Bamba is years away from becoming a contributor in the playoffs.

Celts are built to win now.

If the Celts would have to give up Jaylen and the 2019 Kings pick for Bamba, might as well go after Kawhi.

Bamba is a couple years away from being a contributor, I agree.  Celts are built to win now, I agree.  I don't think anyone here will include Jaylen in the trade for Bamba, so forget about that.  It is Rozier and draft picks or no deal.

We don't need Bamba to win now.  He can come off the bench on light duty until his body fully matures (growth plates, etc.).  He is an possible great player that can be ready for prime time after Horford is through.

gyso

If it will only cost the Celtics Rozier and pick or picks then I'm all for it.

But I doubt Memphis or Dallas would want Rozier when they have PGs like Conley and Dennis Smith.

Maybe Orlando, but I don't think Bamba will last until #6.
Memphis may due to Conley’s injuries and age.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:59 pm

Ktronic

Conley's contract expires in 2021 and it's for 30m per year.

Hard to believe Memphis will want a guy like Rozier who's also going to become a FA next summer.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by Ktronic1 on Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:47 pm

fierce wrote:Ktronic

Conley's contract expires in 2021 and it's for 30m per year.

Hard to believe Memphis will want a guy like Rozier who's also going to become a FA next summer.

Maybe not. And yes, the 30mil he's due is certainly a challenge But I wouldn’t say that the Grizz wouldn’t be entertaining the idea of possibly getting Rozier. Conley (almost 31) has been hurt, may not be as impactful as before and Memphis is in the beginning of a soft rebuild. Makes sense to me that they start looking for a young possible replacement for him. I think Rozier fits.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by KyleCleric on Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:02 pm

I'm not a big a fan of the Brown trade or Kyrie swap for the 1st pick overall. They're interesting though to contemplate. If the right trade for Rozier or Morris came, that seems interesting. Moving them to target Bamba, Doncic, or Porter could be a great way to maintain value to the team for longer. Morris and the Clippers 1st or our 27th pick for one of the Clips picks seems like a small move that could work for both teams. Same with Denver. Perhaps target someone like Knox or the Bridges or Williams (fits the D but will he be able to hit an outside shot?)

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:36 pm

KyleCleric wrote:I'm not a big a fan of the Brown trade or Kyrie swap for the 1st pick overall. They're interesting though to contemplate. If the right trade for Rozier or Morris came, that seems interesting. Moving them to target Bamba, Doncic, or Porter could be a great way to maintain value to the team for longer. Morris and the Clippers 1st or our 27th pick for one of the Clips picks seems like a small move that could work for both teams. Same with Denver. Perhaps target someone like Knox or the Bridges or Williams (fits the D but will he be able to hit an outside shot?)

Agree.

Small moves like you suggested helps.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:42 pm

Anybody watching Game 2 of the Cavs-Warriors?

Lebron fails to score 30 points and it's a blowout.

Kevin Love did his part, another 20-10 game for the second game in a row.

But for the second game in a row, KD, Klay, and Curry scored a total of 79 points.

If you watched the game, the level of play was so high.
Every time Lebron made a big play, GSW always had an answer.

If the Celts are to beat GSW next year, Ainge must match their talent level.

Sure Brown and Tatum will most probably be great players in the future.
But it hasn't happened yet.
I'm very sure Tatum is special.
Brown on the other hand might not be special.
That's why if Ainge can get another star like Kawhi then he should do it.

If not Kawhi then fine.
As long as it's another star player.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by mrkleen09 on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:46 pm

Fierce

This Kawhi thing is getting trifling. Seriously. Learn another song to sing, will ya?
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:50 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Fierce

This Kawhi thing is getting trifling.  Seriously.  Learn another song to sing, will ya?

Like I said, if not Kawhi then as long as it's another star player.

My point is we need to match GSW's talent level.

Right now Kawhi is the only star player that's been reported to be available.

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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by NYCelt on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:56 pm

fierce,

In my opinion adding Kawhi doubles the risk we already have with Hayward. While I would be willing to chance it with one, the risk of two All-Stars that might never return to form seems too high. I have no idea what D Ainge is thinking (who does?), but I'd bet he wouldn't take that risk either.

I get your idea of a star-calibre player, but I think it needs to be a big that can defend and rebound. The rebounding needs more work and Horford's clock is ticking.

Regards
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:02 pm

NYCelt wrote:fierce,

In my opinion adding Kawhi doubles the risk we already have with Hayward. While I would be willing to chance it with one, the risk of two All-Stars that might never return to form seems too high. I have no idea what D Ainge is thinking (who does?), but I'd bet he wouldn't take that risk either.

I get your idea of a star-calibre player, but I think it needs to be a big that can defend and rebound. The rebounding needs more work and Horford's clock is ticking.

Regards

Right now the Celts just don't have the assets to get DeAndre Jordan or Marc Gasol.

If the Celts are going to get a big, it's going to be through the draft.

Nothing wrong with that.

But I know it would break our hearts once we reach the Finals next year and we just end up getting beat by GSW.

Kawhi is only a risk if you don't check him out.
Ainge will do his homework.
If not healthy then no deal.

My Kawhi trade idea is assuming Kawhi is healthy and cleared by Celtic doctors.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by NYCelt on Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:15 pm

We'll need doctors then...

Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard!

Anyone remember that one?
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by NESportsfan12 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:17 am

fierce wrote:Anybody watching Game 2 of the Cavs-Warriors?

Lebron fails to score 30 points and it's a blowout.

Kevin Love did his part, another 20-10 game for the second game in a row.

But for the second game in a row, KD, Klay, and Curry scored a total of 79 points.

If you watched the game, the level of play was so high.
Every time Lebron made a big play, GSW always had an answer.

If the Celts are to beat GSW next year, Ainge must match their talent level.

Sure Brown and Tatum will most probably be great players in the future.
But it hasn't happened yet.
I'm very sure Tatum is special.
Brown on the other hand might not be special.
That's why if Ainge can get another star like Kawhi then he should do it.

If not Kawhi then fine.
As long as it's another star player.

The Cavs are not a very good basketball team. They have the best player in the world, but that's not enough.

I think we can't make the following argument:

1. The cavs beat the celtics.
2. the warriors are dismantling the cavs
3. so the warriors will dismantle the celtics in 2018-2019

The reason is that the celtics team in 1. is different than the celtics team in 3.

Remember: We haven't seen this C's roster play at all together yet. Brown will come back next year stronger and with a better handle, same with Tatum. Both showed that they can put up big numbers, just need to work on consistency. Hopefully both will work on their shooting. Tatum is already a top talent in that respect, and Brown--whose shooting was supposed to be a weakness--showed massive improvement. Gordon will be back and has been steadily improving over the course of his career. He is a legit 2-way stud. We will have 5 players who can put up 20 ppg. (Irving, Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford), and a solid bench (Morris, Rozier, Smart, Baynes (?)). Now, of course it's not true that these guys will each score 20 every night. But they won't need to either.

So sure, if we can get a healthy KL without gutting the team, then I say do it. But the trades you've proposed that make the salary work involve gutting the team. And I just don't think we have good reason to think that we need to gut the team to compete (leaving aside the question of whether the gutting actually makes us better).
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:29 am

NESportsfan12 wrote:
fierce wrote:Anybody watching Game 2 of the Cavs-Warriors?

Lebron fails to score 30 points and it's a blowout.

Kevin Love did his part, another 20-10 game for the second game in a row.

But for the second game in a row, KD, Klay, and Curry scored a total of 79 points.

If you watched the game, the level of play was so high.
Every time Lebron made a big play, GSW always had an answer.

If the Celts are to beat GSW next year, Ainge must match their talent level.

Sure Brown and Tatum will most probably be great players in the future.
But it hasn't happened yet.
I'm very sure Tatum is special.
Brown on the other hand might not be special.
That's why if Ainge can get another star like Kawhi then he should do it.

If not Kawhi then fine.
As long as it's another star player.

The Cavs are not a very good basketball team. They have the best player in the world, but that's not enough.

I think we can't make the following argument:

1. The cavs beat the celtics.
2. the warriors are dismantling the cavs
3. so the warriors will dismantle the celtics in 2018-2019

The reason is that the celtics team in 1. is different than the celtics team in 3.

Remember: We haven't seen this C's roster play at all together yet. Brown will come back next year stronger and with a better handle, same with Tatum. Both showed that they can put up big numbers, just need to work on consistency. Hopefully both will work on their shooting. Tatum is already a top talent in that respect, and Brown--whose shooting was supposed to be a weakness--showed massive improvement. Gordon will be back and has been steadily improving over the course of his career. He is a legit 2-way stud.  We will have 5 players who can put up 20 ppg. (Irving, Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford), and a solid bench (Morris, Rozier, Smart, Baynes (?)). Now, of course it's not true that these guys will each score 20 every night. But they won't need to either.

So sure, if we can get a healthy KL without gutting the team, then I say do it. But the trades you've proposed that make the salary work involve gutting the team. And I just don't think we have good reason to think that we need to gut the team to compete (leaving aside the question of whether the gutting actually makes us better).

I don't think it's gutting the team because the only significant piece we lose is Jaylen Brown.

Rozier becomes 3rd string PG behind Kyrie and Smart.

Morris will be irrelevant because Tatum, KL, and Horford will be the forwards.

Celts will still have Smart, Baynes, Theis, and Larkin.

That's already a 9-man rotation right there.

Other roster spots can be filled out with veteran minimum contracts or draft picks.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by sinus007 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:29 am

Hi,
In the last few days there're 2 main topics on this thread: Leonard and Bamba. Let me take a swing at both.

Leonard.
With all due respect to Fierce, I think that getting KL would be (high probability) detrimental to our team.
Once again, we don't know the real reason why he sat out the (most of) season, we don't know why he wants out of SAS. This brings a lot of ??? which in most cases would prompt me to walk away unless I have ironclad answers that do satisfy me.
Celtics are not in dire situation like: add a star player or else. This year they showed us that even without 2 star players they could get into the Finals. So, they're not desperate to get KL no matter what's the cost. The argument that Fierce brought up, about similarity to Kyrie situation last year, doesn't hold water, IMO. The Celtics has reached the ceiling with the then current roster and couldn't even realistically compete in Conference Finals. They were stuck there - no tweaks or small adjustments would help. They did need drastic update. They got lucky that KI wanted to get out of Lebroland.
Now, let's forget about those ??? I mentioned above for a moment and assume that KL is 100% and ready to bring us #18. What is the price? Danny'd have to give up one or more 1st-rounders of the next years, one of two Js and 1/3 of the team (in order to meet salaries requirement) or, he has to part with one of our max-players, most probably Hayward (similar position). Will SAS want/able to take 5-6 player for 1? Will Danny be willing to cut the team almost in half? Will both sides agree on GH? Once again, a lot of questions with no clear cut answers.
Also, Danny said that they're planning to do just small tweaks and, as many here suggested, it looks like he meant what he said. And acquisition of KL is not a small tweak.

Bamba.
I'm not sure he warrants that much. I haven't watched much of college hoops so, I just go by my gut feeling. I'm not sure how Danny'd know which team will get Bamba? So far, he's projected to be at 5 or 6 which are Dallas' and Orlando's picks. How will he manage the 2 possible trades? Two different teams - two different needs. Also, what if Bamba is picked at 3 or 4?
Now, many suggested to trade TR for Bamba. This begs a question: who's going to be a back-up PG? We don't know what will happen with Smart. This past season showed that PGs can fall like flies. Also, the drop down between KI to Larkin is huge in comparison to KI to TR.
Also, we are spoiled by tremendous progress of JT - in one year he became high quality starter on a very good team. I doubt that Bamba will be able to repeat it, so we'll have to wait at least 2-3 year before he's able to really contribute in playoffs while the time to get #18 is now.

All in all, the scenarios of getting KL and Bamba bring much more questions than answers.

AK


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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:39 am

sinus007

The Warriors won an NBA record 73 wins in 2016.
They reached the championship, but lost to the Cavs in 7 games.

Why did the Warriors take a BIG risk in breaking up their core by adding Kevin Durant?

It was a big risk because nobody knew if KD would fit in.

But the Warriors knew going from Harrison Barnes to Kevin Durant is an upgrade.

Just look at the Warriors in the Finals this year.
Two games in a row KD, Curry, and Klay combined for 79 points.
Steve Kerr keeps it simple.
Put the ball in the hands of his best players.
Let them shoot or pass the ball.

And like I said, Ainge must first do due diligence on KL.

If KL is not healthy then no deal.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by fierce on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:42 am

sinus007

Regarding Bamba, nothing wrong with packaging Rozier along with the Kings pick or Memphis pick.

Celts still have Larkin as the 4th PG behind Kyrie, Smart, and Rozier.

I don't see any team offering Smart outrageous money.
He will still be a Celtic for at least one more season.

The only problem with keeping Smart is if you can't decide between Smart and Rozier.
If the Celts pick Smart then Rozier is clearly expendable.
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Re: Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Post by sinus007 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:14 pm

Fierce,
RE: KD. Your analogy about GSW getting KD does have a flaw: a) it was more of KD selected GSW rather than the other way around and, b) there were no ??? about KD (unlike KL).

RE: PG situation. Yes, if Celtics retain Smart then TR is expendable. I also think that Smart and Larkin will be OK as back up to KI.

AK
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