Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

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Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by international on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:27 pm

Many people don't know that this award and the all defensive teams were not in his era.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by wideclyde on Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:30 pm

I would have to answer this question with "probably not" because as Russell aged he was more about reputation than actually performing up to the level of his well earned reputation. That does not mean that he might not have won about 8 DPOY trophies or that he could not play great defense in spurts even when older.

Also, there were some other very good defensive players on just the Cs (Tom Sanders, KC Jones and John Havlicek) who certainly would have been worthy of some votes in different years. And, of course, there were other players in the 60s who played good defense for other teams as well.

Hard to imagine that this type of award was not part of the NBA for so long.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:52 pm

Lack of defensive stats back in the Russell era made it primarily a reputation call. The only defensive stat of note back then was the rebound. Blocked shots were highly regarded - but no records kept - ditto for steals. Russell and Wilt were the defensive headlines back then and reputation wise were quite dominant over the other players like Sanders and KC Jones who were also recognized by their peers for their defensive skills. Modern camera work is finally catching up with the defensive side of the game.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by Ktronic1 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:31 pm

wideclyde wrote:I would have to answer this question with "probably not" because as Russell aged he was more about reputation than actually performing up to the level of his well earned reputation.  That does not mean that he might not have won about 8 DPOY trophies or that he could not play great defense in spurts even when older.

Also, there were some other very good defensive players on just the Cs (Tom Sanders, KC Jones and John Havlicek) who certainly would have been worthy of some votes in different years.  And, of course, there were other players in the 60s who played good defense for other teams as well.

Hard to imagine that this type of award was not part of the NBA for so long.

Age? Reputation? I remember distinctly during the final years of Russell playing before becoming Player/coach coming from nowhere to block Jerry Wests’s layup in game 7 of the 66 finals.
I’d call that performing up to his well earned reputation.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:54 pm

Was anyone, in the history of the game, ever more statistically dominating at both ends of the floor then Wilt ?

Add on note: 2:29 p m - should have read more statistically dominating "OF HIS ERA".
     

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Last edited by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by wideclyde on Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:25 pm

ktronic,

And, I believe I mentioned that even in his later years that Bill Russell could still perform exceptionally well. Just not on a consistent level as when he was younger.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by wideclyde on Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:28 pm

swish,

Chamberlain averaging 50 points per game was out of this world. The reporters and fans now get all giddy when James, Curry, Durant or others score even 40 in any one game.

His rebounding was pretty awesome, too.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:55 pm

It’s also been well documented that Wilt came up small in many clutch situations.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:07 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:It’s also been well documented that Wilt came up small in many clutch situations.

Probably true of all the greats - those times do exist when the greats come up short - especially on the offensive end of the court.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by Ktronic1 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:17 pm

wideclyde wrote:ktronic,

And, I believe I mentioned that even in his later years that Bill Russell could still perform exceptionally well.  Just not on a consistent level as when he was younger.

Can’t fight Papa time
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by Ktronic1 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:21 pm

wideclyde wrote:swish,

Chamberlain averaging 50 points per game was out of this world.  The reporters and fans now get all giddy when James, Curry, Durant or others score even 40 in any one game.

His rebounding was pretty awesome, too.

He was probably the strongest player in the league back then, but also by far the biggest/tallest. That helps.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Ktronic1 wrote:
wideclyde wrote:swish,

Chamberlain averaging 50 points per game was out of this world.  The reporters and fans now get all giddy when James, Curry, Durant or others score even 40 in any one game.

His rebounding was pretty awesome, too.

He was probably the strongest player in the league back then, but also by far the biggest/tallest. That helps.

ktronic1

Sort of like Goliath vs the Lilliputians

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:00 pm

Mel Counts was just as tall, as was Hank Finkel, Wilt should be given credit for the strength, durability and talent that he had, standing head and shoulders above everyone in his era.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by dboss on Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:31 pm

Is this another who's the GOAT thread?

Bill Russell is the GOAT,  No one has more RINGS.

Celts fans  can show their appreciation by anticipating banner #18.

All this other S...   is not relevant.  Are we gonna spend another summer the same way?

For the love of God, take it from an old time Celtics Fan...We got a beast.  R y kidding me?   


Best GM in the NBA

Likely the Best Coach...he is going to add more Rings

A deep team with high end talent..  Best I have ever seen in terms of young talent but also buoyed by Xaultra superstar Kyrie with a allstar center that was the best that made it to the recent final four.  The only thing I am waiting for is Hayward.

The Celtics are not scared of anthing.  The league knows what is coming.  Young ballers took them to game 7.  They do not want to think about how good our team will be.

It is a really great time to be a Celtics Fan.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:53 pm

dboss wrote:Is this another who's the GOAT thread?

Bill Russell is the GOAT,  No one has more RINGS.

Celts fans  can show their appreciation by anticipating banner #18.

All this other S...   is not relevant.  Are we gonna spend another summer the same way?

For the love of God, take it from an old time Celtics Fan...We got a beast.  R y kidding me?   


Best GM in the NBA

Likely the Best Coach...he is going to add more Rings

A deep team with high end talent..  Best I have ever seen in terms of young talent but also buoyed by Xaultra superstar Kyrie with a allstar center that was the best that made it to the recent final four.  The only thing I am waiting for is Hayward.

The Celtics are not scared of anthing.  The league knows what is coming.  Young ballers took them to game 7.  They do not want to think about how good our team will be.

It is a really great time to be a Celtics Fan.

dboss

Fans do have different interest - its not mandatory that you read or comment on this thread.

swish

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by k_j_88 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:38 pm

swish wrote:
dboss wrote:Is this another who's the GOAT thread?

Bill Russell is the GOAT,  No one has more RINGS.

Celts fans  can show their appreciation by anticipating banner #18.

All this other S...   is not relevant.  Are we gonna spend another summer the same way?

For the love of God, take it from an old time Celtics Fan...We got a beast.  R y kidding me?   


Best GM in the NBA

Likely the Best Coach...he is going to add more Rings

A deep team with high end talent..  Best I have ever seen in terms of young talent but also buoyed by Xaultra superstar Kyrie with a allstar center that was the best that made it to the recent final four.  The only thing I am waiting for is Hayward.

The Celtics are not scared of anthing.  The league knows what is coming.  Young ballers took them to game 7.  They do not want to think about how good our team will be.

It is a really great time to be a Celtics Fan.

dboss

 Fans do have different interest - its not mandatory that you read or comment on this thread.

 swish

Interesting. I seem to remember a number of people neglecting to take this approach when it comes to some members here questioning some coaching decisions by Stevens. Something to the effect of claiming it to be pointless since no one here is privy to the huddle. As some people find coaching criticisms irrelevant, others find comparing athletes of different eras/claiming who is the GOAT to be equally as irrelevant.



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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:46 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Mel Counts was just as tall, as was Hank Finkel, Wilt should be given credit for the strength, durability and talent that he had, standing head and shoulders above everyone in his era.

 cowens

 See link below to see how Wilt matched up against the centers of his day. The average weight of the opposing centers was 227.3 lbs. Wilt weighed in at 275 lbs. And check those 2 point shooting percentages.  40 of the 44 had averages under .500 % - 9%


        http://bkref.com/tiny/n6slM


      swish

And here's the link for those centers that he would have faced over the last 14 years. Average weight 257.4 lbs. 45 of the 62 had 2 point shooting % of .500 or better - .726%

http://bkref.com/tiny/tE6y6

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:08 pm

k_j_88 wrote:
swish wrote:
dboss wrote:Is this another who's the GOAT thread?

Bill Russell is the GOAT,  No one has more RINGS.

Celts fans  can show their appreciation by anticipating banner #18.

All this other S...   is not relevant.  Are we gonna spend another summer the same way?

For the love of God, take it from an old time Celtics Fan...We got a beast.  R y kidding me?   


Best GM in the NBA

Likely the Best Coach...he is going to add more Rings

A deep team with high end talent..  Best I have ever seen in terms of young talent but also buoyed by Xaultra superstar Kyrie with a allstar center that was the best that made it to the recent final four.  The only thing I am waiting for is Hayward.

The Celtics are not scared of anthing.  The league knows what is coming.  Young ballers took them to game 7.  They do not want to think about how good our team will be.

It is a really great time to be a Celtics Fan.

dboss

 Fans do have different interest - its not mandatory that you read or comment on this thread.

 swish

Interesting. I seem to remember a number of people neglecting to take this approach when it comes to some members here questioning some coaching decisions by Stevens. Something to the effect of claiming it to be pointless since no one here is privy to the huddle. As some people find coaching criticisms irrelevant, others find comparing athletes of different eras/claiming who is the GOAT to be equally as irrelevant.



KJ

Did you take that post to be a suggestion that the subject no longer be discussed on the board ?

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:18 pm

swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Mel Counts was just as tall, as was Hank Finkel, Wilt should be given credit for the strength, durability and talent that he had, standing head and shoulders above everyone in his era.

 cowens

 See link below to see how Wilt matched up against the centers of his day. The average weight of the opposing centers was 227.3 lbs. Wilt weighed in at 275 lbs. And check those 2 point shooting percentages.  40 of the 44 had averages under .500 % - 9%


        http://bkref.com/tiny/n6slM


     

    And here's the link for those centers that he would have faced over the last 14 years. Average weight 257.4 lbs.   45 of the 62  had 2 point shooting % of .500 or better - .726%

     http://bkref.com/tiny/tE6y6

      swish  


Swish Wilt had a huge strength and skill advantage in his time, my point was there were still other 7 footers roaming the floor in his time. As you know Wilt was also a world class track athlete, he could avg over 48 minutes in a season, he obviously could play in any era.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:48 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Mel Counts was just as tall, as was Hank Finkel, Wilt should be given credit for the strength, durability and talent that he had, standing head and shoulders above everyone in his era.

 cowens

 See link below to see how Wilt matched up against the centers of his day. The average weight of the opposing centers was 227.3 lbs. Wilt weighed in at 275 lbs. And check those 2 point shooting percentages.  40 of the 44 had averages under .500 % - 9%


        http://bkref.com/tiny/n6slM


     

    And here's the link for those centers that he would have faced over the last 14 years. Average weight 257.4 lbs.   45 of the 62  had 2 point shooting % of .500 or better - .726%

     http://bkref.com/tiny/tE6y6

      swish  


Swish Wilt had a huge strength and skill advantage in his time, my point was there were still other 7 footers roaming the floor in his time. As you know Wilt was also a world class track athlete, he could avg over 48 minutes in a season, he obviously could play in any era.


cowens - perhaps he could play in any era - but how well is the big question. We'll never know for sure.

swish






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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:52 pm

I still remember seeing young dominant Kareem vs old Wilt, those were great match ups, Kareem would put up 35 and Wilt would get 20 points with more rebounds.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:01 pm

As most of you know, my answer would be yes. I watched so many duels of Russell and Chamberlain, and in my eyes, Russell came out on top. I travelled to Philly to watch the ECF of Philadelphia/Boston during a time when they had no business being there. Russ dominated Chamberlain so much that he didn't even want to go back into the game in the fourth quarter. Stats are for the rest of you, I watched that man in action, He would be a genius still today. No doubt in my mind.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:01 pm

Wilt and Kareem don’t get enough credit IMHO. Fans think they are so tall, they should be so great/good, but there’s so many 7 footers that just suck and can’t play or can barely play. Wilt would have eaten and spit out Javelle McGee or Zaza, are they modern players or modern scrubs...???
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:06 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:As most of you know, my answer would be yes.  I watched so many duels of Russell and Chamberlain, and in my eyes, Russell came out on top.  I travelled to Philly to watch the ECF of Philadelphia/Boston during a time when they had no business being there.  Russ dominated Chamberlain so much that he didn't even want to go back into the game in the fourth quarter.  Stats are for the rest of you, I watched that man in action, He would be a genius still today.  No doubt in my mind.

I don’t doubt you Rosalie, Russell and Chamberlain wouldn’t dominate in stats/numbers like in their era, but I have no doubt they still would be great dominant players.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:18 pm

In the nineties Dennis Rodman led the league in rebounding like 5-6 years in a row, he was never the biggest big on the floor. He had a knack and relentlessness for going after and after and chasing down the ball. If Rodman could do that at his size, I’m sure Russell, also a world class track athlete, could put up very big rebounding numbers in any era....similar to the Worm, who could rebound in any era IMHO. It’s not about size and weight, it’s about fast twitch jumping, positioning, balance, timing, etc.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

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