Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by NYCelt on Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:11 pm

Rosalie and Cow,

There is the theory that backs up what both of you are saying; that a great player in a past era would be equally great now.

All anyone who espouses this thinking is pointing out is that a 2018 Bill Russell would have learned and trained with all of the advantages of any other 2018 player. If that's the case, why not? Why wouldn't the 2018 version of Russ, Ruth, Orr, Brown, or any other past great, be just as dominant today?

The thing is, there will never be a way to be sure. But just as some think you cannot compare across eras, there should be an equal number who think you can. Who's to say the ones who think you can aren't right?

Regards
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:33 pm

Russell was an athlete. He had physical skills beyond Basketball. He also had the mind of a basketball genius. I will stand by what I saw with my own two eyes night in and night out for years. I will always be in his corner on this one.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by international on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:08 am

dboss,
That was the main reason to write this post,i see people talking about Lebron and Jordan as candidate for the Goat ,but never mention Bill Russell.Maybe they don't know his greatness and the way he iimpacted the game.Is simple,the best winner,the best rebounder and best defensive player are the same man Bill Russell,so there is no doubt who is the Goat.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by mulcogiseng on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:04 pm

I consider Wilt the second best player of all time. It's easy for the stat bound to think that players like Wilt and Bill wouldn't be as competitive, and certainly not as dominate, in this era as in their own. I'm not like those posters, I'm more like Rosalee. I actually lived during the time that Wilt played. I saw his greatness. He was 7'1" and weighed 300lbs so even Swish has to admit he had the size and seemingly most importantly, the weight, to play today. Who would match up well? Kareem? Shaq? Hakeem? Davis? KAT? Robinson? Duncan? Perk? I can't think of anyone else right now but would it matter? Only a few of the Bigs since Wilt played could even get on the court with him. He would lead his team against all and come out victorious. He would do that until he met the team that Bill was on and then he would lose, just like he always did. All those others? They would lose to a Bill led team too. Individual accolades are nice but the only award that matters gets handed out right after the last game of the season ends. It is not called the MVP award. That's why, when asked, MJ said that Bill was the best of all time because what matters most in the end is winning. But it isn't just about winning. It's also about how you win. How you play the game. Stats inform those opinions but they aren't the opinion itself. The real test comes when you insert Wilt or Bill or Kareem into the lineup of the team that just lost the title. Would they have made a difference? If Wilt or Bill replaced Kevin Love would that have made a difference? I think it would. I also think that LeBron would not have anywhere near the perception of dominance if he had to compete against Bill or Wilt. Here is just one major difference. Over the last 8 years LeBron has been to 8 straight championships, winning 3 times. Bill would have, and did, win all 8. Playing against a Wilt led team James wouldn't even win 3 times. Against Bill he wouldn't win at all. That's why they are the greatest of all time. Because if you insert any of the 10 or 20 greatest players into a lineup, at any point in history, they would dominate and shine. Just like they did in their era. I really wanted to address WideClyde's assertion that Bill had slowed down the last few years of his career but then I realized I didn't see Bill play. We didn't get to watch any of those games in Korea.

The discussion about what era and what players are best will never die. This conversation will continue here and everywhere that sport gets discussed. I really can't think of any other topic that would allow and force us to practice conviviality as much as this one.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by wideclyde on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:56 pm

mulco,

Your list of very, very good centers would likely not have held up against Wilt as he was head and shoulders above them all in just about every way as an athlete. He would have powered through most of them and would have out-quicked and out-run Shaq. Also, Wilt could have probably been even better than he was because he never had much competition other than when his teams played against Bill Russell's teams.

I do have to ask how you could add Kendrick Perkins to your list? As much as I liked Perkins when he was with the Celtics, Wilt would have made him look like a fourth grader trying to play against a man. Of course, Bill Russell would have mopped the floor with Perkins as well.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by mulcogiseng on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:10 pm

I did it for Cow Smile

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by NYCelt on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:13 pm

mulcogiseng wrote:I did it for Cow  Smile


I thought it was a nice touch!
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by k_j_88 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:06 pm

swish wrote:
k_j_88 wrote:
swish wrote:
dboss wrote:Is this another who's the GOAT thread?

Bill Russell is the GOAT,  No one has more RINGS.

Celts fans  can show their appreciation by anticipating banner #18.

All this other S...   is not relevant.  Are we gonna spend another summer the same way?

For the love of God, take it from an old time Celtics Fan...We got a beast.  R y kidding me?   


Best GM in the NBA

Likely the Best Coach...he is going to add more Rings

A deep team with high end talent..  Best I have ever seen in terms of young talent but also buoyed by Xaultra superstar Kyrie with a allstar center that was the best that made it to the recent final four.  The only thing I am waiting for is Hayward.

The Celtics are not scared of anthing.  The league knows what is coming.  Young ballers took them to game 7.  They do not want to think about how good our team will be.

It is a really great time to be a Celtics Fan.

dboss

 Fans do have different interest - its not mandatory that you read or comment on this thread.

 swish

Interesting. I seem to remember a number of people neglecting to take this approach when it comes to some members here questioning some coaching decisions by Stevens. Something to the effect of claiming it to be pointless since no one here is privy to the huddle. As some people find coaching criticisms irrelevant, others find comparing athletes of different eras/claiming who is the GOAT to be equally as irrelevant.



KJ

  Did you take that post to be a suggestion that the subject no longer be discussed on the board ?

  swish

There's not many other ways to take it when some say it's a useless conversation to have. Personally, I don't really care what topics arise because I don't intend to tell people what they should or should not discuss. I just think people should at least be considerate enough to be consistent in recognizing how this can potentially be hypocritical, however they feel about a given subject and whether they think it's relevant/necessary or not.


KJ
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:17 pm

NYCelt wrote:
mulcogiseng wrote:I did it for Cow  Smile


I thought it was a nice touch!

LMAO!! You guys crack me up, if we were at the bar, shots on me!!
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:33 pm

I remember seeing Kareem still at his peak going against young Walton, in his one and a half healthy years, 77 and Kareem could get his hook over Walton with ease and almost thought it was unfair as Walton also had the menacing Maurice Lucas next to him. Anyway I remember thinking even back then that Walton was lucky he was going against Jabber, because Wilt would have overpowered him....agreed Wilt would have overpowered all the centers on that list, but Olajuwon would have given Wilt some trouble with his speed and Dream shake moves too. Anyway I see a modern Bill Russell of today defending similar in style to Olajuwon or better and rebounding similar in style to Rodman or better, he’d be about the same size and build of Amare Stoudamire.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:33 pm

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:44 pm

wideclyde wrote:mulco,

Your list of very, very good centers would likely not have held up against Wilt as he was head and shoulders above them all in just about every way as an athlete.  He would have powered through most of them and would have out-quicked and out-run Shaq.  Also, Wilt could have probably been even better than he was because he never had much competition other than when his teams played against Bill Russell's teams.

I do have to ask how you could add Kendrick Perkins to your list?  As much as I liked Perkins when he was with the Celtics, Wilt would have made him look like a fourth grader trying to play against a man.  Of course, Bill Russell would have mopped the floor with Perkins as well.

Also if you see some great clips on you tube of young Kareem and old Wilt battling, even old Wilt was a much better leaper than Shaq ever was, plus he had really long arms, an attribute that all the great shot blockers have, he would have swatted a lot of Shaq’s shot attempts.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by Ktronic1 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:12 am

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Russell was an athlete. He had physical skills beyond Basketball. He also had the mind of a basketball genius.  I will stand by what I saw with my own two eyes night in and night out for years.  I will always be in his corner on this one.

^^^^^1 hunred puh cent!!!!
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:21 pm

mulcogiseng wrote:I consider Wilt the second best player of all time. It's easy for the stat bound to think that players like Wilt and Bill wouldn't be as competitive, and certainly not as dominate, in this era as in their own.  I'm not like those posters, I'm more like Rosalee. I actually lived during the time that Wilt played. I saw his greatness. He was 7'1" and weighed 300lbs so even Swish has to admit he had the size and seemingly most importantly, the weight, to play today. Who would match up well? Kareem? Shaq? Hakeem? Davis? KAT? Robinson? Duncan? Perk? I can't think of anyone else right now but would it matter? Only a few of the Bigs since Wilt played could even get on the court with him. He would lead his team against all and come out victorious. He would do that until he met the team that Bill was on and then he would lose, just like he always did. All those others? They would lose to a Bill led team too. Individual accolades are nice but the only award that matters gets handed out right after the last game of the season ends. It is not called the MVP award. That's why, when asked, MJ said that Bill was the best of all time because what matters most in the end is winning. But it isn't just about winning. It's also about how you win. How you play the game. Stats inform those opinions but they aren't the opinion itself. The real test comes when you insert Wilt or Bill or Kareem into the lineup of the team that just lost the title. Would they have made a difference? If Wilt or Bill replaced Kevin Love would that have made a difference? I think it would. I also think that LeBron would not have anywhere near the perception of dominance if he had to compete against Bill or Wilt. Here is just one major difference. Over the last 8 years LeBron has been to 8 straight championships, winning 3 times. Bill would have, and did, win all 8. Playing against a Wilt led team James wouldn't even win 3 times. Against Bill he wouldn't win at all. That's why they are the greatest of all time. Because if you insert any of the 10 or 20 greatest players into a lineup, at any point in history, they would dominate and shine. Just like they did in their era. I really wanted to address WideClyde's assertion that Bill had slowed down the last few years of his career but then I realized I didn't see Bill play. We didn't get to watch any of those games in Korea.

The discussion about what era and what players are best will never die. This conversation will continue here and everywhere that sport gets discussed. I really can't think of any other topic that would allow and force us to practice conviviality as much as this one.

Below is a list of players that played center in Wilts rookie year - 1959-60

    http://bkref.com/tiny/JacaQ

2017-18 centers ----- http://bkref.com/tiny/PkQtM

  And here are some players that would give wilt a helluva bigger battle then those light weight midgets that he faced in 1959.

   

    swish


Last edited by swish on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:21 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by worcester on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:41 pm

My hats off to Rodman for the role he has played in creating a human channel to the NK leader. Dennis displayed some great personal courage to withstand the brickabats hurled at him after he developed a relationship with the world's pariah. And I always loved his game.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:19 pm

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:28 pm

mulcogiseng

Those "Bigs" back in 1959-60 averaged 219.5 lbs and the "Bigs" in 2017-18 averaged 250.1 lbs.
Also - The "Bigs" in 59-60 had a shooting percent average of just 41.0 percent - while the "Bigs" in 17-18 put up a
great shooting percentage of 55.7.------ Note: No 3 point shooting back in Wilts time so the shooting percentages are based on 2 point shooting percentages.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:38 pm

mulcogiseng

I assume that you were only about 8 or 9 when Russell came to town in 1957 and as a result may not be fully aware of the state of the nba back then. So here are some numbers in regards to the"Bigs" back then.
See below link.

http://bkref.com/tiny/b1PEC
Those 1956-57 "Bigs" averaged 216.8 lbs and and shot 2 pointers at a 39.1 percent rate. Only the nba players of the years preceeding the mid to late 50's were worst.

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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by Ktronic1 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:45 pm

worcester wrote:My hats off to Rodman for the role he has played in creating a human channel to the NK leader. Dennis displayed some great personal courage to withstand the brickabats hurled at him after he developed a relationship with the world's pariah. And I always loved his game.
Oh please. So now Rodman’s a diplomat? I got a bridge to sell you if you believe that.
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by mulcogiseng on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:59 pm

swish wrote:mulcogiseng

  I assume that you were only about 8 or 9 when Russell came to town in 1957 and as a result may not be fully aware of the state of the nba back then. So here are some numbers in regards to the"Bigs" back then.
  See below link.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/b1PEC
 Those 1956-57 "Bigs" averaged 216.8 lbs and and shot 2 pointers at a 39.1 percent rate. Only the nba players of the years preceeding the mid to late 50's were worst.

   swish

Thanx Swish but maybe I haven't been clear. Those stats hold no meaning for me. There are so many other things that I take into consideration before I start looking at weight. Your math is good, I was indeed only 8 or 9 when Bill came into the league. Are you throwing the age card? Razz Your stance seems to be very consistent and I reject it just as consistently. While the height and weight differences between the players of the 50s and 60s is considerably different from today's players, that would mean nothing when talking about how Wilt would perform in any era including the present. As Wilt has said, they made rules to make the game easier for Jordan so his greatness would shine down on an NBA that had become more concerned about individual branding and stardom than team excellence. The NBA made rules to shut down Wilt, to stop him from dominating even more than he did. He still dominated although he never scored 100pts again. I just can't think of matchups that Wilt wouldn't be able to exploit. I know that you have put a lot of time into researching your theory of basketball but I would encourage you to broaden your view of how certain players like Wilt and Bill performed and how their skill sets might translate to later eras. Perhaps you don't give such things, dare I say, enuf weight? Basketball
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Re: Do you think Bill Russell could have won defensive player of the year 13 times? I think so

Post by swish on Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:07 pm

mulcogiseng wrote:
swish wrote:mulcogiseng

  I assume that you were only about 8 or 9 when Russell came to town in 1957 and as a result may not be fully aware of the state of the nba back then. So here are some numbers in regards to the"Bigs" back then.
  See below link.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/b1PEC
 Those 1956-57 "Bigs" averaged 216.8 lbs and and shot 2 pointers at a 39.1 percent rate. Only the nba players of the years preceeding the mid to late 50's were worst.

   swish

Thanx Swish but maybe I haven't been clear. Those stats hold no meaning for me. There are so many other things that I take into consideration before I start looking at weight. Your math is good, I was indeed only 8 or 9 when Bill came into the league. Are you throwing the age card?  Razz  Your stance seems to be very consistent and I reject it just as consistently. While the height and weight differences between the players of the 50s and 60s is considerably different from today's players, that would mean nothing when talking about how Wilt would perform in any era including the present.  As Wilt has said, they made rules to make the game easier for Jordan so his greatness would shine down on an NBA that had become more concerned about individual branding and stardom than team excellence. The NBA made rules to shut down Wilt, to stop him from dominating even more than he did. He still dominated although he never scored 100pts again. I just can't think of matchups that Wilt wouldn't be able to exploit. I know that you have put a lot of time into researching your theory of basketball but I would encourage you to broaden your view of how certain players like Wilt and Bill performed and how their skill sets might translate to later eras. Perhaps you don't give such things, dare I say, enuf weight? Basketball

    Mulcogiseng

  As long as my stats "hold no meaning to" you - then there's not much grounds, from my point of view, for a meaningful discussion - but please understand one thing. I was amazed at the time at the skill level of the greats back in those days and was particularly astounded by the performances of Russ and Wilt. I was at the Boston Garden back in November 1959, with my Wife and Mom and Dad, when Russ and Wilt met for the 1st time. One of the most memorable sports moments of my life. Fair to say that you and I see things differently now - but that's fine - its all about opinions.

 swish

add on: Celts vs Warriors---- Wilt 1st game in Boston

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195911070BOS.html

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