Doncic vs Simmons

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Doncic vs Simmons

Post by bobheckler on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:13 am

Based upon the hype and this preseason game I thought I'd start a running thread that compares Luka Doncic of Dallas and Ben Simmons of Philly over this season.  They strike me as having similar games.  Both seem to be very good ballhandlers and passers for their size and Doncic can shoot, it appears.  Simmons?  Well...Point forwards or just really big point guards?

Disclaimer:  Doncic is a rookie with a lot professional experience in Europe while Simmons is ab NBA sophomore who spent a year on the bench watching and learning, so this is actually his 3rd year.  Doncic is listed at 6'7" , 218#.  Simmons is 6'10" , 230#.

NBA game #1 for Luka Doncic, preseason vs the Beijing Ducks.  Probably not much of a test, I think the kanji word for defense in Mandarin is a pictogram of a windmill.  That's why Stephon Marbury is a living god there and Jimmer Fredette is his apostle.





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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:54 am

Here's the 76ers box score from Friday nights exhibition opener. Simmons as usual, with big assist and rebounding numbers. Fultz finally got in some meaningful minutes. After the game Fultz indicated that his shoullder was completely healed.

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401077233

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by jrleftfoot on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:16 pm

Simmons 4 for 9 with no 3 pt. attempts against that team? Call me unimpressed.
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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:59 am

jrleftfoot wrote:Simmons 4 for 9 with no 3 pt. attempts against that team? Call me unimpressed.

Guess how many 3 point shots Simmons took last year. Guess how many he made.
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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by KyleCleric on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:03 am

dboss wrote:
jrleftfoot wrote:Simmons 4 for 9 with no 3 pt. attempts against that team? Call me unimpressed.

Guess how many 3 point shots Simmons took last year.  Guess how many he made.

11 but he only took about 39 total shots outside of 16 feet

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by wideclyde on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:54 am

We here in Delaware see Simmons quite often on local TV, and even though shooting from distance was not his best skill last season he is indeed a very good NBA player. He will likely get better, at least to some degree, as an outside shooter but will be a player the rest of the league will have to deal with for many years.

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:25 am

wideclyde wrote:We here in Delaware see Simmons quite often on local TV, and even though shooting from distance was not his best skill last season he is indeed a very good NBA player.  He will likely get better, at least to some degree, as an outside shooter but will be a player the rest of the league will have to deal with for many years.

Simmons has a lot of high end skills but not being able to shoot from the outside will limit him.  One wonders how this kid never developed a jumper.  Along the way things were missed.

I think he is a head case.  When I watch him he seems to have a short circuit when it comes to shooting a wide open jumper. He seems petrified to even take a shot.
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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by KyleCleric on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:10 am

dboss wrote:
wideclyde wrote:We here in Delaware see Simmons quite often on local TV, and even though shooting from distance was not his best skill last season he is indeed a very good NBA player.  He will likely get better, at least to some degree, as an outside shooter but will be a player the rest of the league will have to deal with for many years.

Simmons has a lot of high end skills but not being able to shoot from the outside will limit him.  One wonders how this kid never developed a jumper.  Along the way things were missed.

I think he is a head case.  When I watch him he seems to have a short circuit when it comes to shooting a wide open jumper. He seems petrified to even take a shot.

Unlike Fultz, it sounds like Simmons has given up on improving his shot. He should be fine winning games and filling out stat sheets in the regular season. Against good defenses and teams, he'll be a liability, especially in the playoffs. Lack of shooting with Simmons, limited with Embiid and Fultz, Sixers will struggle on offense in the playoffs.

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:49 pm

Check out his numbers last year vs his peers that were all 6'8" or better with the qualifying stats as listed in the heading. Not too shabby indeed for a player just completing his rookie year. Note his assist and total rebounds per game.

http://bkref.com/tiny/x7ddy

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:18 pm

While my above post compared players thar were listed as guards or forwards - this post is for players that were 6'8" to 7'7" and played at any position. Note that Simmons is ranked number four in terms of 2 point field goal attempts - very unusual for a player listed as playing some point guard to be be so highly effective in the paint area usually dominated by  the high profile`BIGS.

http://bkref.com/tiny/Oz6fr

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:30 pm

Since 1949 only 3 players that are listed as Guards, Guards forwards, or Forward Guards have made the below list - subject to the qualifying high standards as listed in the heading.
http://bkref.com/tiny/59Wkw

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by k_j_88 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:36 pm

Doncic can actually shoot. Simmons probably never will.


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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:42 pm

k_j_88 wrote:Doncic can actually shoot. Simmons probably never will.


KJ

What's wrong with a shooting percentage of .545?

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:52 pm

These are two entirely different players. They only intersect when running the offense.

Doncic can shoot and Simmons cannot. He will never be a good shooter until he accepts that he sucks and then makes a commitment to himself to become a good shooter. Defensively and on the glass he is far superior to Doncic.

I do not see their careers intersecting because they are so different.

For ROY I am taking Ayton.

I felt Atlanta made a bad decision in taking Trey Young and passing on Doncic as well as other players.

Also, I want to report that YouTubeTV works great. I also have NBA TEAM Pass which also works great.

Heading down to Florida next week on a grandpa tour Palm Bay, St. Pete and up to Pensacola.

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:55 pm

swish wrote:
k_j_88 wrote:Doncic can actually shoot. Simmons probably never will.


KJ

 What's wrong with a shooting percentage of .545?

  swish

Layups are fine but free throws and an ability to shoot from the outside is needed.

Not enough volume around the basket for him to be a primetime scorer.  Cannot make freebies
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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by k_j_88 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:52 pm

Swish,

Do you really think driving to the hole on every play is a viable strategy in today's game? Yeah, you have to attack the defense but this is done to set up perimeter offense. Simmons' *inability to shoot from the outside* is a huge liability. It means they can sag off of him and deter the Sixers' shooters.


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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm

k_j_88 wrote:Swish,

Do you really think driving to the hole on every play is a viable strategy in today's game? Yeah, you have to attack the defense but this is done to set up perimeter offense. Simmons' *inability to shoot from the outside* is a huge liability. It means they can sag off of him and deter the Sixers' shooters.


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 I don't know what percentage of his shots were drives or post ups but I do know that 79.5% of his Field Goal Attempts were from less than 10' - and he made 59.8 pecent of them. What ever defense the opponent played against him last year did not fare to well. Maybe they will do better this year - Then again, maybe not.

  swish


Last edited by swish on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:30 pm

swish wrote:
k_j_88 wrote:Swish,

Do you really think driving to the hole on every play is a viable strategy in today's game? Yeah, you have to attack the defense but this is done to set up perimeter offense. Simmons' *inability to shoot from the outside* is a huge liability. It means they can sag off of him and deter the Sixers' shooters.


KJ


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 I don't know what percentage of his shots were drives or post ups, but I do know that 79.5% of his Field Goal Attempts were from less than 10' - and he made 59.8 pecent of them(535 of 894 attempts). What ever defense the opponet played against him last year did not fare to well. Maybe they will do better this year - Then again, maybe not. It doesn't look to me like he drove to the basket to set up the outside shot - but more like they just could not stop him from making a ton of very high percentage buckets. Maybe they will do better this year - then again - maybe not. We will know in about 8 months.

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by k_j_88 on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:59 am

Swish,

I assume you watched our series against Philly. Our defense exploited Simmons. It doesn't matter what he did during his regular season because playoff teams play you more than once and will attack your weakness. We beat them pretty handily without kyrie or Gordon.


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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:22 pm

KJ I had to check Simmons regular season numbers and compare them to the playoff series against Boston.

I am pretty certain Swish watched the playoffs. He has been watching the Celtics before i did and has a history of watching them that goes back. way Way back.

Anyways you have made a good point about Summons.

During the regular season he averaged 15.8 PPG, 8.2 Assists and 8.1 rebounds. he shot .545% and averaged 3.4 turnovers.

During the playoffs his numbers were 14.4 PPG, 6.4 assists and 8.2 rebounds. He shot .475 and he also turned the ball over at a rate of 4.8 times per game.





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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:12 pm

kj and dboss

Overall it seems that Simmons had more success against a very highly rated Celtic defense in the Playoffs, then he did during the regular season - when compared with the stats in dboss's preceding post.
Simmon's regular season numbers vs the Celts.

Regular season ---- 4 games
Points per game ---- 12.5
Asist per game ---- 4.8
Rebounds per game ---- 6.5
Field Goal percentage ----47.8
Turnovers per game ---- 3.8

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:33 pm

Swish I only looked at his regular season average overall not his regular season average against Boston.

What stands out in either case is that his FG % slightly lower and he turned the ball over more. Philly went into the playoffs redhot. Simmons was killing it in the first round against Miami and Boston threw some cold water on him. Yes he was 2 points per game better in the playoffs against us as compared to the regular season and he did rebound better. his 2.8 assists were better but the net was just 1 since he turned the ball over at an alarming rate 4.8 per game.

I think his playoff performance against Boston was a disappointment for Philly fans and I also think that Boston did a good job in limiting his impact.
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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by swish on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:20 pm

dboss wrote:Swish I only looked at his regular season average overall not his regular season average against Boston.

What stands out in either case is that his FG % was lower as was his assist totals and he turned the ball over more.  

dboss

I would expect that there would be a decent chance that his numbers would go down when facing the 3rd rated defensive team in the league. After all, there can be a significant statistical gap between the top rated defensive teams and the lower rated teams.

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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by dboss on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:48 pm

Did anybody watch Simmons vs Doncic last night?

Game from China. Doncic is an excellent passer as is Simmons. Will the Mavs make the playoffs?
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Re: Doncic vs Simmons

Post by jrleftfoot on Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:29 am

Statistics are useful , but they don't always tell the whole story. It's a shooters league now, and my eyes told me that Simmons' inability to shoot from outside was a major handicap to the Sixers in their playoff series with the Celts. The lane repeatedly got clogged up because of it, IMO. They would be a better team if Simmons could shoot from the perimeter and Joel spent more time in the paint. Just my two cents.
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