This and that

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Re: This and that

Post by swish on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:49 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:
dboss wrote:
swish wrote:dboss
Take a look at the offensive and defensive points scored and allowed by the Celtics during the Russell years. Only in the 1967-68 season did the celts finish out of 1st place (second) in points allowed while their rankings on offense were way back in the pack. Iv'e posted the 1956-57 team for the starting point - if you have any difficulty pulling up the data let me know and I'll pull up the data for you.
       Note- click onto header for ortg and drtg for sorting. Return to top of page to move onto next year.
  https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1957.html#all_misc_stats

   swish

Swish I think that their Pace reflected a lot of fast break opportunities.  They had  some great defensive teams but if you take away their fast break they were beatable.  Teams simply could not slow them down.  

 We will never know if the Celts would have been better or worse offensivly without the fastbreak - but we do know for sure that the Celts were an absolute terror on defense all 13 years of Russells (and others) tenure with the team.

swish



Not to be disagreeable but I again disagree.  Take away the Celtics Fast break during the Russell and Cowens years and you do not end up with all those titles.  

The single biggest factor in winning is FGA.  The more FGA the better your chance to win games.  The Celtics were not a very good shooting team in those Russell years but they consistently played with more pace than those others teams and the stats from that period supports that.  The defense was absolutely important but I have never seen anything that tells me that is the most important thing in winning.   Although Boston was not a great offensive team they took more shots and that leveled the playing field for them.  The fast break was what allowed them to dominate the league.  

In my post to TJ, I pointed out how the Lakers pace has greatly contributed to their competitiveness on offense despite the lack of quality shooters.

It is all about FGA.  If you look at the top 10 teams in FG attempts 5 of those teams are in the top 10 in fast break points.   That leaves 5 teams that are top 10 in FGA and 4 of those 5 are in the top 10 in offensive rebounds.

Boston is now 6th in FGA and 8th in FB points.  

The key to winning is taking more shots than your opponent (reducing turnovers, securing more offensive rebounds, turning them over ) then scoring on the fast break becomes a more efficient  way to score.  You score quick, your tire out your opponent.  The old Celtics ran teams off the court because the other teams were fatigue and out of position defensively.








dboss

Your above reasoning looks good on paper - but falls apart when you compare it to some other major factors.
Consider the following.

My favorite stat when it comes to pointing out the elite teams is efg percentage - both offensive and defensive.
Offensive EFG has always been availeable but defensive EFG only since the 1970-71 season.
During those years the league champs had an average offensive EFG ranking of 5.8 and a defensive EFG rating of 5.4
For assist percentage (stats kept only since 2003-04 ) the champs and runner ups assist ranking combined was 13.4
For rebound percentage (Stats kept only since 2011-12) the champs and runner ups rebound ranking combined was 14.4
For field goal attempts (Since 1979-80) the champs and runner ups FGA ranking combined was 14.8.

More to follow on the Russell years and those teams unequaled dependance on the defense.

swish





































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Re: This and that

Post by dboss on Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:14 pm

Swish I will be looking for that info on Russell

EFG is still a function of FGA.
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Re: This and that

Post by swish on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:06 pm

dboss wrote:Swish I will be looking for that info on Russell

EFG is still a function of FGA.

dboss

I got my first taste of fast break basketball in the eatly 1940's when i would listen to the Rhode Island Rams - and then came Russell and the Celtic running game. I loved every minute  0f those years. Without the stats to verify what my eyes were telling me it was quite easy to to go along with the hype of the times - in this case it was the Russell generated fast break. but a closer look at the numbers paint a different picture.
 Using the league average for points scored in a game you can weigh the Celtics offense and defense against the season average.
 Starting in
 1956-57 league ave pts per game   99.6,,Celts offense ave 105.5,, plus 5.9 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 100.2,,neg o.6
 1957-58 league ave pts per game 106.6,,Celts offense ave 109.9,, plus 3.3 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 104.4,,plus 2.2
 1958-59 league ave pts per game 108.2,, Celts offense ave 116.4,, plus 8.2 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 109.9,,neg 1.7
 1959-60 league ave pts per game 115.3,, Celts offense ave 124.5,, plus 9.2 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 116.2,,neg 0.9
   Then came the switch over to the defense - next 9 years
 1960-61 league ave pts per game 118.1,, Celts offense ave 119.7,, plus 0,4 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 114.1,, neg 4.0
 1961-62 league ave pts per game 118.8,, Celts offense ave 121.1,, plus 2.3 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 111.9,, neg 6.9
 1962-63 league ave pts per game 115.3,, Celts offense ave 118.8,, plus 3.5 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 111.6,, neg 3.7
 1963-64 league ave pts per game 111.0,, Celts offense ave 113.3,, plus 2.3 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 105.1,, neg 5.9
 1964-65 league ave pts per game 110.6,, Celts offense ave 112.8,, plus 2.2 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 104.4,, neg 6.2
 1965-66 league ave pts per game 115.5,, Celts offense ave 112.7,, plus 2.8 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 107.8,, neg 7.7
 1966-67 league ave pts per game 117.4,, Celts offense ave 119.3,, plus 1.9 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 111.3,, neg 6.1
 1967-68 league ave pts per game 116.6,, Celts offense ave 116.1,, neg  0.5 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 112.0,, neg 4.6
 1968-69 league ave pts per game 112.3,, Celts offense ave 111.0,, neg  1.3 pts,,, Celts defense allowed 105.4,, neg 6.9

   swish

Being an old timer I thought that you might enjoy this article about the early to mid 40's Univ of Rhode Island Rams fast break team.

  https://www.si.com/vault/1996/03/18/211019/a-shot-to-remember-ernie-calverleys-buzzer-beater-in-the-46-nit-was-the-greatest-hail-mary-of-all


Last edited by swish on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:57 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add on artical)

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Re: This and that

Post by worcester on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:43 pm

Swish - in 1966-7 the nba averaged 117.4 ppg. That is a pretty high average on offense. The Celts at 119.3 ppg were scoring! Nellie, Sam Jones, and Heinsohn must have been happy.
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Re: This and that

Post by swish on Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 am

worcester wrote:Swish - in 1966-7 the nba averaged 117.4 ppg. That is a pretty high average on offense. The Celts at 119.3 ppg were scoring! Nellie, Sam Jones, and Heinsohn must have been happy.

worcester

Not too too happy - Heinsohn was retired and Nellie and Sam suffered through a 76ers championship year

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Re: This and that

Post by worcester on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:56 am

How right you are Swish. We had the 2nd best NBA record but last 1-4 to Philly. We had six players shooting over 10 ppg, 3 over 20 ppg- Bailey Howell, Hondo, and Sam Jones. Tough year.
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Re: This and that

Post by dboss on Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:45 pm

Swish

I am just not understanding what point you are making.  

You obviously did a lot of work to pull those numbers.  But the numbers do not really support the notion that defense was the main reason why Boston won all of those championships.  I agree that Boston could not have won all those titles without their defense.  I think you should have added a 4th column that compare the league average in points allowed.  

In any event we are way off track so let me just go back a few posts.

I suggested that the Celtics need to score more of their points on fast breaks.  It is just one component of having a strong offensive team.  It is not the only thing.  I related the value of fast break basketball to Celtics teams in the past and suggested that it was a defining element in their championship runs.  I also pointed out that one reason why LAL scored so many points despite being an average shooting team was because of their fast break.

You have taken exception to that notion and see defense as the main force behind the Celtics championship runs (Russell era)  Despite them having great defensive teams year after year, they could not have won unless they outscored their opponents.  After the buzzer sounded in all those wins the team with the most points always won.  Ultimately the game of basketball is won or loss based on outscoring your opponent.  Offense is still the #1  factor in winning.  Defense contributes to the offense.  Defense is in fact a variable in the offense.  I will again make reference to one of the greatet defensive players ever to lace up a pair of converses.  Bill Russell when asked about the game simply stated it is all about buckets.

here is his quote  "This game has always been, and will always be, about buckets."
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Re: This and that

Post by swish on Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:46 pm

dboss wrote:Swish

I am just not understanding what point you are making.  

You obviously did a lot of work to pull those numbers.  But the numbers do not really support the notion that defense was the main reason why Boston won all of those championships.  I agree that Boston could not have won all those titles without their defense.  I think you should have added a 4th column that compare the league average in points allowed.  

In any event we are way off track so let me just go back a few posts.

I suggested that the Celtics need to score more of their points on fast breaks.  It is just one component of having a strong offensive team.  It is not the only thing.  I related the value of fast break basketball to Celtics teams in the past and suggested that it was a defining element in their championship runs.  I also pointed out that one reason why LAL scored so many points despite being an average shooting team was because of their fast break.

You have taken exception to that notion and see defense as the main force behind the Celtics championship runs (Russell era)  Despite them having great defensive teams year after year, they could not have won unless they outscored their opponents.  After the buzzer sounded in all those wins the team with the most points always won.  Ultimately the game of basketball is won or loss based on outscoring your opponent.  Offense is still the #1  factor in winning.  Defense contributes to the offense.  Defense is in fact a variable in the offense.  I will again make reference to one of the greatet defensive players ever to lace up a pair of converses.  Bill Russell when asked about the game simply stated it is all about buckets.

here is his quote  "This game has always been, and will always be, about buckets."
dboss
Sorry that my figures were not clearer . Check my figures again and you will see that for each year I compared the Celtic offensive scoring vs the league ave and did the same thing for the teams points allowed on defense. For Russells last 9 years the team ranked on average 4.9th on points scored and 1.4th on points allowed. Points above the average per year averaged out to 1 point - while the defense allowed 5.8 fewer points below the league average. Clearly a case of the defense being the dominant factor in the final margin of victory. And to Russell's quote I will add " not only making them - BUT PREVENTING THEM "

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Re: This and that

Post by dboss on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:35 am

Swish

Careful..you cannot add or subtract from the many quotes from Bill Russell.

Here is another one to ponder "The only important statistic is the final score."
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Re: This and that

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:47 am

Less is more
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Re: This and that

Post by bobc33 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:20 am

Wow, Luka Doncic at the end of regulation makes a ridiculous 3 to send the game to OT.

The cat is all of 19 years old and with shots like that he has the Larry Bird clutch gene!
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Re: This and that

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:31 am

bobc33 wrote:Wow, Luka Doncic at the end of regulation makes a ridiculous 3 to send the game to OT.

The cat is all of 19 years old and with shots like that he has the Larry Bird clutch gene!

I know, not the first time he’s done it....
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Re: This and that

Post by kdp59 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:48 am

its not the first time someone has compared him to Bird.

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Re: This and that

Post by worcester on Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:51 am

But can he trash talk like Larry?
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Re: This and that

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:08 am

His step back from 3 is lethal, and he’s friggin 19....unreal.

Other parts of his game are all there, post, drive, dish...can play either forward spot at his own pace, like Larry.
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Re: This and that

Post by kdp59 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:26 pm

Honestly. I didn't think he was going to be this good.

what was Atlanta thinking?

boy they blew that one big time.
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Re: This and that

Post by dboss on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:22 pm

ATL is one dumbass team.

Several years back they passed on Chris Paul and took Marvin Williams.  That mistake has haunted that franchise.  They drafted Young because they think he is the next Steph Curry.  He is not.

In the meantime it looks to me like the hype about Doncic was in fact understated.  Their blunder is similar to the Sixers opening the door for Boston to draft Tatum.  But Sixers went even deeper.  They compounded their error by giving up a 1st rounder.  They got Fultz who has yet to be remotely productive.

Some things are so unbelievable that it is hard to wrap your mind around them.

Hawks + Sixers = dumb mfer's
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Re: This and that

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:14 pm

Lakers shredding GS 65-50 at half, Lakers pretty much getting anything they want on offense and Warriors looking very old, no energy either end.
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Re: This and that

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:49 pm

Shit Lebron went down and Lakers missing bunny after bunny....
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Re: This and that

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:22 pm

Old friend Rondo now killing GS, sparking Lakers taking total control of game, he’s already got 9 assists, so much better than Lonzo Ball. Pelicans made big mistake letting Rondo go....can’t believe I’m rooting for Lakers...??? Rondo killing them up 22, no answer for Rondo...
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Re: This and that

Post by worcester on Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:47 pm

Rondo has been a winner everywhere but Dallas.
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Re: This and that

Post by bobheckler on Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:57 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-lakers-rajon-rondo-surgery-172528415.html



Report: Lakers’ Rajon Rondo to have surgery on hand, again, be out another four weeks







Kurt Helin,NBC Sports 1 hour 20 minutes ago



Rajon Rondo had just returned three games ago from surgery on a fractured hand that had him out for 17 games. With LeBron James sidelined, Laker coach Luke Walton was going to lean on Rondo for some veteran leadership on the court.

Not anymore. Rondo needs surgery on his hand again — his right ring finger — and is likely to miss another month. Shams Charania of The Athletic broke the story.


Shams Charania
✔️
@ShamsCharania
Sources on @TheAthleticNBA @WatchStadium: Los Angeles Lakers guard Rajon Rondo is expected to undergo surgery on his injured right hand and miss one month.

857
8:23 AM - Dec 28, 2018

Shams Charania
✔️
@ShamsCharania
Four-week timetable for Rajon Rondo with surgery for Grade 3 finger sprain in right hand. Lakers now down two of their leaders in LeBron James (groin) and Rondo.


Rondo has shot 10-of-23 since his return and is +8 (although all of that came on Christmas against the Warriors, he struggled the first couple of games).

This will put more on Lonzo Ball‘s shoulders, with Josh Hart playing the role some, plus guys like Brandon Ingram and, when he returns, LeBron James handling playmaking duties. The Lakers have done this for 17 games without Rondo this season, they know the routine.


bob



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Re: This and that

Post by NYCelt on Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:51 pm

With LA getting banged up, Boston may sneak ahead of them in the next power rankings, the tough way.
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Re: This and that

Post by bobheckler on Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:06 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nba-reportedly-sends-league-wide-anti-tampering-memo-181239411.html



NBA reportedly sends league-wide anti-tampering memo



Yahoo Sports  Torrey Hart,Yahoo Sports 4 hours ago





In the wake of LeBron James’ praise for Anthony Davis, the league sent a reminder about its anti-tampering laws. (Getty)




In a not-so-subtle response to Lakers star LeBron James’ comments regarding his desire to play with the Pelicans’ Anthony Davis, the NBA reportedly sent a memo to all teams reminding them of the league’s anti-tampering rules.

Earlier in December, James told ESPN that playing with the Pelicans’ five-time All-Star Davis would be “amazing” and “incredible” – seemingly harmless praise – but the grey area lies in the fact that Davis is under contract through the 2019-2020 season.

Thus, the anti-tampering memo.

“Employment contracts are to be respected and conduct that interferes with contractual employment relationships is prohibited,” the reminder reads, according to ESPN. “This principle is particularly important in today’s media environment, where any actions or comments relating to potential player movement receive immediate and widespread public attention. Teams should be entitled to focus their efforts on the competition this season with the players they have under contract, without having to divert attention or resources to conduct or speculation regarding the potential destinations of those players in future seasons once their contracts expire.”

The memo further clarified that even if an action, in isolation, does not constitute tampering, a pattern of repeated behavior could receive a sanction.

“Teams should be aware that the scope of the anti-tampering rule is broad, and its application in any given case is based on all facts and circumstances,” the memo said. “Accordingly, conduct that doesn’t violate the rule in any single instance may nevertheless constitute a violation if it becomes repeated or part of a broader collection of improper actions.” “Teams should therefore refrain from any conduct — including public statements — that could be viewed as targeting or expressing interest in another team’s player.”

James’ comments reportedly sparked outrage from small-market GMs who were concerned that the league, by not enforcing tampering rules, implicitly endorsed James’ conduct. Adding to the tampering case is that James and Davis share the same agent: Rich Paul of Klutch Sports.

Since the response to his initial Davis comments, James has defended himself, saying that he “plays by the rules,” and would admit to wanting to play with any other great player, simply because they are great.

Is that tampering? Apparently not officially – but it’s too close for the rest of the NBA’s comfort.



bob
MY NOTE:  Rumor is that LeBron invited Davis to his house for dinner when the Pelicans were in LA.  This is useless.  Players talk, players hang, players have conversations and text each other.  IT "recruited" Horford, when Horford was still with the Hawks, at the All-Star game.  How can you prove anything?  Players can't say "Howya doin'?  I love it where I am, I have a great coach a great organization and great teammates."  LeBron talked about how much easier it is to recruit players to LA than Cleveland.  How would he know unless he has been trying?


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Re: This and that

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:24 pm

I see where Bob is coming from Dboss. Sure, players recruit all the time. Look at Draymond Green and Kevin Durant, and the rest of the GSW players, they recruited. Did anyone say anything? This business with LeBron is so blatant, it is like he is daring the NBA to do something to stop him. He feels he is above it all. Look, if Davis is going to go there, there is nothing anyone can do. If I were the Pelicans, though, I would strip them of Kuzma, Ingram, and even Ball.
Then the old guy will have to carry the offense himself along with Davis. Oh, I forgot, Melo may be there too. Thank God for that.

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Re: This and that

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