lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

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lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by kdp59 on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:21 am

with that in mind some of my thoughts on POSSIBLE trades that would work salary wise and make at least some sense for both teams.

first off it is apparent we need more size inside, I doubt anyone can deny that after last night. So I am looking at BIG MEN only for an upgrade. Secondly the players I am looking at MUST be an upgrade for us over the Baynes/Theis minutes inside (at the least).

Also the other team must receive something of need back to be willing to make the deal. This of course is subjective on my part only based on those teams current rosters and play.

and finally, since A. Davis is not getting traded here this year he is out of this equation.

here is the list I came up with, in order of how I feel it would help the Celtics the most.

1) Trade with Detroit
A. Drummond- $25.M salary
L. Galloway- $7M
for
G. Hayward- $31.2M
T. Rozier- $3.05M

Danny would likely have to ADD one of his possible 4 first rounder from next years draft to get it done. But Detroit has Blake and some other young depth at the big men spots, they need an upgrade at both SF and at PG. Celtics get a legit rebounder and defender inside with NBA size. Drummond has two more years on his deal and Galloway one more,

2) Trade with Utah
R. Gobert- $22.7M
J. Crowder- $7.3M
for
Hayward
R. Williams- $1.6M
As many as TWO first from next years draft to make it happen.

This would be a close second to me as we replace players in positions of strength (SF) with one of weakness (C) directly. Both player we gets back are on mutli year deals.


3) Trade with Sacramento
W. Cauley-Stein- $4.7M (he is the key)
Z. Randolph- $11.7M
Cap space- $11 M
for
Hayward
R. Williams
one first round pick

Kings have a glut of young bigs lead by Bagley, Skal & Giles along with Vets like Koufos and Bjelica, but they have Shumpert at SF right now. Randolph is on his last year of his deal, perhaps freeing up space enough to resign Morris next year to a market deal.

4) Trade with Miami
H. Whiteside- $25.4M
D. Waiters- $11.2M
for
Hayward
Baynes- $5.2
one first rounder

Whiteside has been playing well again this year and has the size and inside game some feel we need, but he does have a player option for next year. We take back Waiters slightly bloated contract for TWO additional years also. Hayward allows them to move Richardson to his natural SG position and Baynes give them depth up front (like he does here) . Baynes can block any trade I believe though.

5) Trade with Minnesota

G. Dieng- $15.1M
J. Teague- $19 M
For
Hayward
Rozier

Dieng has the size and has played starters minutes before but has been strickly a BU the past two years. I see him as more an upgrade over Baynes and Theis than a starter. Dieng is under contract fro two more years however. Teague has a player option for next year, which he would be a fool to not take.








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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by tardust on Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:10 am

You seem to want to get rid of Hayward. I am not so sure he has a very high trade value right now. If he was playing average we would have a better record than we have right now. I do like the Drummond trade. We would quit getting hammered on the boards and he gets most of his points off rebound and doesn't have a lot of plays ran for him.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:56 pm

kdp59

You have Hayward in all 5 of your trade scenarios.

If you are a GM would you take a chance on a $30 million per year guy who has not come close to being who he was before that horrific injury?

Hayward is still in the recovery stage of his injury and quite frankly I do not know if he will ever come close to being the baller he was before that fateful day in 2017.

These trades may work on paper but they do not pass the smell test.


Last edited by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:52 pm

dboss wrote:Bob

You have Hayward in all 5 of your trade scenarios.

If you are a GM would you take a chance on a $30 million per year guy who has not come close to being who he was before that horrific injury?

Hayward is still in the recovery stage of his injury and quite frankly I do not know if he will ever come close to being the baller he was before that fateful day in 2017.

These trades may work on paper but they do not pass the smell test.



I would do any of these trades, but don’t see another GM being so dumb, I mean friendly, if only McHale was still in the business.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by swish on Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:31 pm

i'm not so sure that his numbers with Utah were an actual indication that his value was worthy of the contract that the Celtics are saddled with - a relatively low efg and points per game average over his career at utah - could mean that our expectations were way to high.

  Note-- For Utah years 2010-11 through 2016-17.  Average points -15.7 and efg average .500

   

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by bobheckler on Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 pm

Hayward is untradeable.  Period (Caveat:  Maybe if we throw in Jayson Tatum).  Therefore, in my opinion, any trade idea that includes him is a non-starter (unless we include Brown or Tatum, but probably Tatum).

Utah is not going to take Hayward back on a trade, not after he "spurned" them.  Maybe, after this contract is over and he is a free agent they might welcome him back, but not in a trade, where he is going back without his express desire to be there.  And they are certainly not going to give up one of, if not the, #1 defensive bigs in the game for Williams.  

Hayward's play is weak, so far, and he still has 2 1/2 years left on his max contract.  Forget about it, not going to happen.  If he starts playing well then possibilities might start to appear on the horizon, but if he starts playing like he did in Utah and his contract doesn't look quite so bad then the desire to trade him will diminish as well.


bob



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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by swish on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:16 pm

Below is a look at forwards who in 2017-18 and 2018-19 averaged close to Haywards points per game and efg while he was at Utah.

http://bkref.com/tiny/y6140

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:25 pm

swish wrote:i'm not so sure that his numbers with Utah were an actual indication that his value was worthy of the contract that the Celtics are saddled with - a relatively low efg and points per game average over his career at utah - could mean that our expectations were way to high.

  Note-- For Utah years 2010-11 through 2016-17.  Average points -15.7 and efg average .500

    

  swish

Swish Hayward had a career year before The Celtics signed him as a free agent. It was his 7th year in the league. He was a disciple of Brad Stevens and it certainly looked like a great fit for Boston. However they did not know how good Tatum would be and they did not know that Kyrie Irving would become available. And they did not know that 5 minutes into his first game he would suffer one the most gruesome injuries I have ever seen.

The injury has really curtailed his ability to get to the rim and as a result get to the line. He averaged around 6 FT attempts per game. But that is down to 2.3 FTA. The injury has robbed him of what little quickness he had to begin with. Defensively he is slow. My only hope is that he will get better but I just don't know if that will happen. I see no trade on the horizon in absence of a substantial recovery.

In the meantime his salary prevents the Celtics from retaining other key guys.

The silver lining for the Celtics remains embedded in their draft assets. They can acquire replacements or make a major upgrade. Gordon Hayward is not a current asset for the Celtics.

Moving a player with a big salary is difficult in and of itself. Moving a player with a big salary who is no longer capable of playing is damn near impossible.





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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:28 pm

swish wrote:Below is a look at forwards who in 2017-18 and 2018-19 averaged close to Haywards points per game and efg while he was at Utah.

  http://bkref.com/tiny/y6140

 swish

That table is for 2018

Where is the 2016-2017 table
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by tardust on Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:00 pm

I watched most of the show last night but I must have missed talks about a Celtic trade last night. Can someone tell me what was discussed?
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by swish on Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:12 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:Below is a look at forwards who in 2017-18 and 2018-19 averaged close to Haywards points per game and efg while he was at Utah.

  http://bkref.com/tiny/y6140

 swish

That table is for 2018

Where is the 2016-2017 table

The table IS for 2017-18 and 2018-19.
The table is to show the caliber players that in the last 2 years put up similer numbers to what Hayward averaged in his years at UTAH - the current question is whether Hayward is going to play back to his last year with Utah or his career ave with Utah.

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by swish on Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:20 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:i'm not so sure that his numbers with Utah were an actual indication that his value was worthy of the contract that the Celtics are saddled with - a relatively low efg and points per game average over his career at utah - could mean that our expectations were way to high.

  Note-- For Utah years 2010-11 through 2016-17.  Average points -15.7 and efg average .500

    

  swish

Swish Hayward had a career year before The Celtics signed him as a free agent.  It was his 7th year in the league.  He was a disciple of Brad Stevens and it certainly looked like a great fit for Boston.  However they did not know how good Tatum would be and they did not know that Kyrie Irving would become available.  And they did not know that 5 minutes into his first game he would suffer one the most gruesome injuries I have ever seen.

The injury has really curtailed his ability to get to the rim and as a result get to the line.  He averaged around 6 FT attempts per game.  But that is down to 2.3 FTA.  The injury has robbed him of what little quickness he had to begin with.  Defensively he is slow.  My only hope is that he will get better but I just don't know if that will happen.  I see no trade on the horizon in absence of a substantial recovery.

In the meantime his salary prevents the Celtics from retaining other key guys.

The silver lining for the Celtics remains embedded in their draft assets.  They can acquire replacements or make a major upgrade.  Gordon Hayward is not a current asset for the Celtics.

Moving a player with a big salary is difficult in and of itself.  Moving a player with a big salary who is no longer capable of playing is damn near impossible.






No doubt the injury has set Hayward back - but I still wonder whether he would have played to his career numbers or his final year nunbers with Utah had he not been injured. I realalize that there is a certain amount of hindsight involved - but at least in my mind there is room for a little skepticism.

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:49 pm

swish wrote:
dboss wrote:
swish wrote:i'm not so sure that his numbers with Utah were an actual indication that his value was worthy of the contract that the Celtics are saddled with - a relatively low efg and points per game average over his career at utah - could mean that our expectations were way to high.

  Note-- For Utah years 2010-11 through 2016-17.  Average points -15.7 and efg average .500

    

  swish

Swish Hayward had a career year before The Celtics signed him as a free agent.  It was his 7th year in the league.  He was a disciple of Brad Stevens and it certainly looked like a great fit for Boston.  However they did not know how good Tatum would be and they did not know that Kyrie Irving would become available.  And they did not know that 5 minutes into his first game he would suffer one the most gruesome injuries I have ever seen.

The injury has really curtailed his ability to get to the rim and as a result get to the line.  He averaged around 6 FT attempts per game.  But that is down to 2.3 FTA.  The injury has robbed him of what little quickness he had to begin with.  Defensively he is slow.  My only hope is that he will get better but I just don't know if that will happen.  I see no trade on the horizon in absence of a substantial recovery.

In the meantime his salary prevents the Celtics from retaining other key guys.

The silver lining for the Celtics remains embedded in their draft assets.  They can acquire replacements or make a major upgrade.  Gordon Hayward is not a current asset for the Celtics.

Moving a player with a big salary is difficult in and of itself.  Moving a player with a big salary who is no longer capable of playing is damn near impossible.






No doubt the injury has set Hayward back - but I still wonder whether he would have played to his career numbers or his final year nunbers with Utah had he not been injured. I realalize that there is a certain amount of hindsight involved - but at least in my mind there is room for a little skepticism.

 swish

He was the top player on Utah. Good player but not great. If healthy he has a chance to be a #2 but with Tatum developing and Morris playing very well he may not have been #2. But hard to say. He is not really back to playing well. But he is being paid like a #1 option.

I would trade him in a NY minute because we already have a young replacement for him. But trading him seems unlikely given his salary and marginal play.

At this point we really do not know what we have.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by swish on Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:07 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:
dboss wrote:
swish wrote:i'm not so sure that his numbers with Utah were an actual indication that his value was worthy of the contract that the Celtics are saddled with - a relatively low efg and points per game average over his career at utah - could mean that our expectations were way to high.

  Note-- For Utah years 2010-11 through 2016-17.  Average points -15.7 and efg average .500

    

  swish

Swish Hayward had a career year before The Celtics signed him as a free agent.  It was his 7th year in the league.  He was a disciple of Brad Stevens and it certainly looked like a great fit for Boston.  However they did not know how good Tatum would be and they did not know that Kyrie Irving would become available.  And they did not know that 5 minutes into his first game he would suffer one the most gruesome injuries I have ever seen.

The injury has really curtailed his ability to get to the rim and as a result get to the line.  He averaged around 6 FT attempts per game.  But that is down to 2.3 FTA.  The injury has robbed him of what little quickness he had to begin with.  Defensively he is slow.  My only hope is that he will get better but I just don't know if that will happen.  I see no trade on the horizon in absence of a substantial recovery.

In the meantime his salary prevents the Celtics from retaining other key guys.

The silver lining for the Celtics remains embedded in their draft assets.  They can acquire replacements or make a major upgrade.  Gordon Hayward is not a current asset for the Celtics.

Moving a player with a big salary is difficult in and of itself.  Moving a player with a big salary who is no longer capable of playing is damn near impossible.






No doubt the injury has set Hayward back - but I still wonder whether he would have played to his career numbers or his final year nunbers with Utah had he not been injured. I realalize that there is a certain amount of hindsight involved - but at least in my mind there is room for a little skepticism.

 swish

He was the top player on Utah.  Good player but not great.  If healthy he has a chance to be a #2 but with Tatum developing and Morris playing very well he may not have been #2.  But hard to say.  He is not really back to playing well.  But he is being paid like a #1 option.

I would trade him in a NY minute because we already have a young replacement for him.  But trading him seems unlikely given his salary and marginal play.

At this point we really do not know what we have.  

dboss

Sounds about right to me - good wrap up

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:56 pm

I see him going no where. Also, why in the world would Utah ever give up Rudy Gobert? No way, no how. He is the top defensive center in the league. Utah will never trade for Hayward, he spurned them, they were upset, and it will carry over. On top of all of this, why would any team trade for a guy who is obviously no where near what he was. There aren’t any Billy King’s out there now.

On top of all of this, this is sending a message to the rest of the free agents out there that they are dispensable if they do not meet their potential. The Celtics convinced Hayward to leave a lot of money on the table and sign with them. The unfortunate injury just put Gordon in a terrible position. I, for one, feel he still needs time. So the bench is the place for him for now. He should not be the scapegoat for all these young guys who are not living up to expectations. That is where the trade will come.

Last night it was mentioned more than once that the Celtics were hoping that possibly Robin Lopez will get bought out. I am not sure that is what we are looking for but....we sure missed a big guy out there last night to push back on Aldridge. Baynes will be out a while longer for sure. Theis could not handle him and Yabusele was totally ineffective

Who would have thought, during the summer, that we would be at this point, talking about trades, and almost wishing Hayward off the team. NOT ME, I WILL GIVE HIM MORE TIME BEFORE I GIVE UP.
Time will tell.

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:39 pm

Unfortunate situation.....
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:02 pm

The issue is not really about GH.  I tend to agree with Rosalie that it may just take more time. However for all we known Gordon may never be the same. We just don't know.

My concern is at the 5.  Maybe if Baynes was playing I would not be so concerned.  But Baynes is limited and Al looks about ready to come out of the oven.  

The one area on this team with the weakest talent is at center.  Even if we do not get a lot of point production from our fives we have to have interior defense and rebounding.  We are simply not getting that from our max center.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:03 pm

Mannix talked about the fact that the lack of a true BIG hurt the Celtics last night. Aldridge had a field day in the middle. He overpowered everyone. Them he mentioned that Robin Lopez might be bought out of his contract and could be available. I don’t know how long Baynes is going to be out, but we need someone. Williams is out tomorrow and I think for a while.

I wish we could turn a corner, have a couple of those young ‘un’s start playing how we expected, and finally look like the team we expected in September. Lots of questions here, lots. And, with Hayward struggling at times, he is the one who is taking it all on the chin.

There was a story in Yardbarker where he wrote that he hoped that the Celtics fans would have the patience to help him gain back his skills and play the way they want and the way he wants. He is feeling the pressure, no doubt
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:30 pm

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/12/gordon-hayward-talks-about-comeback.html
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by mrkleen09 on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:25 pm

I would love to see someone here call out the threads from July 2017, where they were not excited about Gordon Hayward joining the Celtics.

His injury was horrific and may well prove to be something he never fully recovers from. But to try and play Monday Morning Quarterback saying he was never that good anyway - after the fact is weak sauce.

He improved every year of his NBA career, had 3 years of 19 & 5 and was an extremely reliable and durable player (was in top 2 in minutes played in the NBA twice) and was another sign that Boston was becoming a destination for top FA talent.

He may end up traded at some point in the future, but that will be a result of his inability to bring the same skills to the table that he has before his injury. It will have NOTHING to do with him being a one hit wonder, or not the player Danny Ainge thought he was getting. I think he will need most of this year to get right.

In an era of positionless basketball, it makes no difference if he "plays" the same position at Tatum or anyone else. He is a facilitator and Point Forward much of the time his is on the court and that will only improve as he heals and regains his mental and physical confidence. I think next year, you see Gordon back in the 18 to 22 PPG range and playing a big part of the next Celtics championship team.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by dboss on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:46 pm

Kleen

Sure hope you are right. I would be happy with a solid 15-17 a game.

Right now I am more concerned about out center position.

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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by mrkleen09 on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:48 pm

dboss wrote:Kleen

Sure hope you are right.  I would be happy with a solid 15-17 a game.  

Right now I am more concerned about out center position.


100%.

And anyone that questioned the importance of Aron Baynes a few weeks ago - need look no further.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by tardust on Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:47 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:
dboss wrote:Kleen

Sure hope you are right.  I would be happy with a solid 15-17 a game.  

Right now I am more concerned about out center position.


100%.

And anyone that questioned the importance of Aron Baynes a few weeks ago - need look no further.

And anyone that questioned the importance of Aron Baynes a few weeks ago - need look no further.[/quote]

He would sure come in handy against the Spurs but Aldridge is very good at the fadeaway when someone keeps him from getting down low. The teams with the bulldozers down low are the team Aaron helps with. I agree 100% on the Hayward post. I am just hoping it doesn't take till next year. I think the shooting part is just in his mind.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:59 pm

Those negative words never came out of my mouth Kleen, I was away in Maine when they were going back and forth as to whether he was signing here. I must have driven my son nuts texting with him, as the tv up in Maine carried no info on the signing. I have always liked the way he plays the game, constant movement, good shooter, excellent passer, and not afraid to get his hands dirty on defense. I guess he reminded me just a little of my favorite, John Havlicek. So, all this negativity is driving me nuts.,

And, Dboss, you are right about Baynes, I said that in another post somewhere. He was what we needed last night against San Antonio. Put some muscle on Aldrige never would have been so active against the Celtics.
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Re: lots of talk about a Celtic trade coming soon on NBA TV last night

Post by kdp59 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:16 am

OK..lots of discussion which was my point.

first off, I was just showing trades that would work salary wise AND provide an upgrade at the center position for the Celtics.

I include Hayward because IMO he is not needed here (even at his best) with Tatum and Brown on the roster. I want to keep both of the young guys myself.

Many have said that Hayward has no value in a trade while others feel he is worth his contract (at least when it was signed). Not sure how both can be true.

anyhow I addressed his "lowered" value in a trade by adding first round picks to almost all the trade. Perhaps additional picks would need to be added to make any of those trades more palatable.

I would also note that each one of the teams I listed have a pretty big need at SF (which is Hayward's natural position). Also each of those teams have a losing record right now, except for the Kings.

I kept Utah on the list even though him going back there would be improbable because that deal (with Crowder) really appeals to me.


In the end I think IF Danny makes a move it will be a minor one. Robin Lopez could be a nice addition IF he gets bought out. I would note that the Bulls new coach seems to be a fan or Lopez however.

thanks for the responses and thoughts, I know that talking trade is not one of the favorite things to discuss here many times.
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