Re: Kyrie to Kyrie or not to Kyrie

by **dboss** Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:56 pm

When you go to battle you better bring some firepower. The combination of a great strategy and great weaponry will win the day.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:30 pm

dboss wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Hey dboss great post, I just wanted to add while I love how GH performed I can’t agree that he is better than the 2 J’s. Tatum also has a growth curve that will grow and IMO surpass the best of Hayward and right now I think Tatum is better, especially when you consider both ends. On Jaylen I was watching him and Butler very closely and was shocking how well Jaylen matches up with Butler. I used to think Butler was a very athletic wing, well Jaylen is better at all levels of athleticism and I didn’t notice that before and was actually surprised. There was a sequence in 2nd where Butler tried to get past J on the right baseline, couldn’t come close to doing it and threw the ball away. Then next possession Simmons came down lane and J swiped the ball away knocking it out of bounds. You were right on the post game you said Jaylen’s defense was excellent and it was....

Anyway we can go back to Kyrie....

With both the J's still in the development stage each has upside but right now, like today. Hayward skills are more refined on offense. Jaylen is the better defender because he is really quick. Jason has those long arms and can challenge shots as well. Hayward is not particularly fast but as his game continues to accelerate his defense will come from experience. The ability to read and establish position. His defense has actually looked pretty good the last few games unlike the GSW game.

Tatum has tremendous upside but until he becomes a better play maker he is not actually on the same level as
Hayward. It is hard to run the offense through Jason because he does not seem to like to pass the ball as much as he should. He has evolved somewhat into an ISO player that takes a lot of bad step back 2 point jumpers.

I have noticed that Jaylen has been trying to create more for his teammates. Both of the J's have work to do on that part of their games.

The most important thing is that all 3 are on the Celtics, at least for this season. I really like all of them.

Agreed 2 J’s do need to learn to pass better and are developing, but they both have that ability to harass on D, make steals and fly down the court, routinely. There might be 5 other wings in the whole league that can routinely make those kind of plays, and we have 2 of them, they may not be all stars yet, but they ozz talent and have more free flowing talent than most all stars. How many coaches would take Kris Middleton over either J? I’m just extremely glad that GH’s game is coming around, to have another deadeye shooter and facilitator at the wing only adds to this team giving other teams a match up nightmare. I like talented depth....

by **dbrown4** Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:40 am

We actually need Kyrie for the Finals. We panicked last year in the last 8 minutes of Game 7 ECF. We will get through that this time. Especially since Marcus Smart did nothing this summer but practice shooting the 3-ball. He was the head bricklayer those final 8 minutes. Notice the difference this year?!

He will navigate those waters for us. He's the only one that's been there. That's where his value will be exploited.

db

by **bobheckler** Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:34 pm

Tom Westerholm @Tom_NBA
yesterday
Some on/off per 100 possessions perspective (per Cleaning the Glass) James Harden: +5.4 Giannis Antetokounmpo: +7.8 Anthony Davis: +8.4 Kyrie Irving: +9.1

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bob

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by **Shamrock1000** Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:13 pm

bobheckler wrote:Tom Westerholm @Tom_NBA
yesterday
Some on/off per 100 possessions perspective (per Cleaning the Glass) James Harden: +5.4 Giannis Antetokounmpo: +7.8 Anthony Davis: +8.4 Kyrie Irving: +9.1

reply retweet like

bob

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by **Shamrock1000** Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:14 pm

bobheckler wrote:Tom Westerholm @Tom_NBA
yesterday
Some on/off per 100 possessions perspective (per Cleaning the Glass) James Harden: +5.4 Giannis Antetokounmpo: +7.8 Anthony Davis: +8.4 Kyrie Irving: +9.1

reply retweet like

bob

.

Okay, I am on the "Celtics are better with Kyrie" team, but that stat, which every pro-Kyrie writer is also throwing out there, is misleading. It refers to games where Kyrie plays, and compares the performance of the team when he is on the court to the team's performance when he is on the bench. This is a very different situation than when he doesn't play. First, Kyrie tends to play with the Celtics best players, so it makes sense that offensive and defensive ratings are better when he (and the other best players on the team), are on the court. Second, it is a very different situation than when Kyrie doesn't suit up at all. Those who argue he is not a great fit note that the ball doesn't move as much, and people stand around. If that were true, then having players more involved early in games probably increases their engagement and performance the rest of the game. Here are the performance stats with and without Kyrie:

with Kyrie without Kyrie
W - L 28-19 9-2
PPG diff +5.6 +10.0
FG% 46.0 48.6
3-pt% 36.8 38.8
APG 25.9 28.9

Caveat: I got these numbers from a Colin Cowherd tweet. He is on the 'Celtics are better without Kyrie" bandwagon; I haven't checked the numbers myself, but I assume they are correct.

I think their ceiling is higher with Kyrie, but clearly there is room for improvement as everyone learns how best to play together.

by **dboss** Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:04 pm

You know what I think is being overlooked?

Think for a minute about the Celtics in terms of their style of play. The Celtics have been to the playoffs 4 straight years under coach Stevens. Each year they have gotten closer. They have been a staunch defensive team for a while now. They have come up short every year.

In the 2nd closeout game last year Boston scored 79 points and lost a heart breaker. We lost because we could not score the basketball.

The year before we lost the final game by 33 points. 33 points, WTF was that?

The bottom line is that you have to outscore your opponent. We can ill afford to go into the playoffs this year without Kyrie Irving.

Kyrie has been to 3 World Championships. He has performed well. There is no reason to expect him not to play well. Everybody else on the team is suspect. Teams in the East have really improved. The best teams can also defend. All the great teams have at least one killer. GSW has 3.

What ever argument that can be made no teams has won an NBA title with just a group of really good players. If you need to make a critical basket there is no player on the Celtics more dependable than Kyrie.

Kyrie has yet to play in the playoffs for the Celtics, I would wager that he has to be chopping at the bit.

Anyways he plays for the Celtics so Terry will not be shooting 0-10 from deep in a closeout game.

by **Shamrock1000** Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:17 pm

dboss wrote:You know what I think is being overlooked?

Think for a minute about the Celtics in terms of their style of play. The Celtics have been to the playoffs 4 straight years under coach Stevens. Each year they have gotten closer. They have been a staunch defensive team for a while now. They have come up short every year.

In the 2nd closeout game last year Boston scored 79 points and lost a heart breaker. We lost because we could not score the basketball.

The year before we lost the final game by 33 points. 33 points, WTF was that?

The bottom line is that you have to outscore your opponent. We can ill afford to go into the playoffs this year without Kyrie Irving.

Kyrie has been to 3 World Championships. He has performed well. There is no reason to expect him not to play well. Everybody else on the team is suspect. Teams in the East have really improved. The best teams can also defend. All the great teams have at least one killer. GSW has 3.

What ever argument that can be made no teams has won an NBA title with just a group of really good players. If you need to make a critical basket there is no player on the Celtics more dependable than Kyrie.

Kyrie has yet to play in the playoffs for the Celtics, I would wager that he has to be chopping at the bit.

Anyways he plays for the Celtics so Terry will not be shooting 0-10 from deep in a closeout game.

Excellent points. How about looking at it this way. We know that the Celtics can ball without Kyrie. We know that Kyrie can ball. We are working on how to mesh everything together. It hasn't always been perfect, but we have seen glimpses. When this year's team has it going, they look pretty much unstoppable. And that was before GH started to get his groove back. If everything clicks, the Celtics might be the best team in the league. Even when it doesn't, they are still pretty damn good regardless of what our outsized expectations have told us.

by **dboss** Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:40 pm

The Celts are an excellent team. I just want them to win this year. A healthy GH certainly moves the scale YOY,

A healthy GH and a healthy KI provide enough pure offensive firepower to match up with everybody. Add in the remaining quality players and everyone on the same page and we have a legit shot at the title. If AH breaks down all bets are off.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:15 pm

I will not get caught up in this conversation. To even think that once the big chips are on the line that we would be better without Kyrie is impossible for me to consider. I love the kids, at least the two J’s, I have never been convinced of Rozier’s value, even during the run last year.

BobH. You always keep me laughing, where do you find those pix to post? I laughed like heck when I saw it.

Once Hayward puts a few more games like the last few he has played, I think opinions are going to switch. Brad is quite aware of what he can bring to the team on a nightly basis, I believe this is one of the reasons he played him the way he has. Knowing that a lot of it was mental, the only way to overcome that is to play.

Kyrie is so important. Let’s just enjoy this ride, we are who we are for this year. After this break, hopefully we will be at full strength and we become the team we thought we were going to be in October

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:50 am

bobheckler wrote:

bob

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Fake worms

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:20 am

Cow - you have to admit...he is a laugh a minute!!

by **bobheckler** Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:52 pm

Kyrie Irving

...................................mpg.......fga/gm......fg%.......ppg.........3pt fgas/gm......3pt fg%......rpg..........apg,,,,,,,TOpg.....OffRtg.....DefRtg.....NetRtg
Career---------------------33.8-----17.5--------46.5-----22.1-------5.3--------------39.0---------3.6--------5.6------2.7------113-------109--------+4
Season to Date-----------32.5-----17.9--------49.8-----23.6-------6.2--------------40.9---------4.9--------6.9------2.7------119-------107--------+12
Team Season To Date---------------------------46.5-----------------------------------37.2----------------------------------------113-------106.6-----+6.4

* Stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com

Not only is Kyrie having one of the best seasons of his career, he is doing it in fewer minutes and is also dragging the team's averages up in fg%, 3ptfg%, Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating. The difference between Kyrie on the court and Kyrie off the court is +5.6 (+12 NetRtg - +6.4 NetRtg). Clearly, we are better with him.

bob

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by **RosalieTCeltics** Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:55 pm

Thank you my friend. My sentiments exactly!!!

by **Pumpsie Green** Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:40 pm

Up until the last few weeks I thought Kyrie was God's gift to the Celtics. He is an immense talent. That is not debatable. And he is a joy to watch.

That said, when Irving has the ball it seems too often that the other guys stand around and watch him dribble to get his shot. Its not team basketball. Its great one on one basketball. But that has never won a ring, and its not the Celtics way now, nor has it ever been their way when they were good. When Pierce was all we had he played one on one ball, but they didn't win a ring with him alone. The statistics back up the fact that this team IS better without KI in the lineup-and furthermore, it passes the sniff test. Just watch the ball movement with him and without him. Finally, Rozier is a better defender than Irving, so without Kyrie out there our defense is better.
JMO.

by **bobheckler** Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:08 pm

2018-2019....................DefRtg
Kyrie Irving....................107
Terry Rozier...................107

So the team gives up the same number of points per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court as they do with Rozier.

bob

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by **tardust** Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:37 pm

NBA.com has it

Rozier- 103.1
Irving- 104.9

by **bobheckler** Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:07 am

tardust wrote:NBA.com has it

Rozier- 103.1
Irving- 104.9

Tardust,

Are those numbers per game? The basketball-reference.com numbers are per 100 possessions. The difference might be due to Kyrie and Rozier playing at different paces?

Regardless, Kyrie's superior offense would obviously offset the -1.8 defensive shortcoming anyway.

bob

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by **tardust** Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:10 pm

bobheckler wrote:
tardust wrote:NBA.com has it

Rozier- 103.1
Irving- 104.9

Tardust,

Are those numbers per game? The basketball-reference.com numbers are per 100 possessions. The difference might be due to Kyrie and Rozier playing at different paces?

Regardless, Kyrie's superior offense would obviously offset the -1.8 defensive shortcoming anyway.

bob

.

Yes it was. I started to put the link on there but didn't. Actually I think Tatum was the best on the starting 5. Jalyen was basically the same. Heck I don't know. I don't really pay that much attention to all these stats. There are too many variables that I do not know if they are all included.

TD

by **tardust** Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:14 pm

Here is the link. I filtered just the Celtics
I didn't see anything about 100 possessions

Regardless, Kyrie's superior offense would obviously offset the -1.8 defensive shortcoming anyway. And then some!!!!!

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738

by **RosalieTCeltics** Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:25 pm

I just wish he would stop talking about his teammates

by **bobc33** Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:02 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I just wish he would stop talking about his teammates

Amen to that Rosalie!

I want to hear about his commitment to winning a championship this season and what he can do himself to accomplish that. Stop pretending to be a leader and be content to be a star on a contending team.

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