The Official Free Agents and Trades 2010 Offseason thread

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The Official Free Agents and Trades 2010 Offseason thread - Page 18 Empty Re: The Official Free Agents and Trades 2010 Offseason thread

Post by mrkleen09 Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:54 pm

tjmakz wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:Is it really the system or is it the players?
In 2006-07 Boston gave up 99.2 ppg.
After the trades for Garnett and Allen, Boston only gave up 90.3 ppg in the 2007-08 season.
To my knowledge Boston had the same coaches and defensive schemes both years.

Now that Boston's players are older and have more physical limitations, they gave up 95.6 ppg in the 09-10 season.

Wait, did you just say the Celtics ran the same defensive schemes with Al Jefferson, Michael Olowokandi, and Wally Szczerbiak in 2006-07, as they did a year later with KG, James Posey, and Ray Allen? Of course Doc and Coach Tibs changed their schemes to take advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of their players. To suggest otherwise is just ridiculous.


Why is Boston giving up 5+ more points per game now then they were a couple of years ago? Is Garnett the same defensive player? No. Is Pierce? No. Is Ray Allen? No.
Same schemes, different physical limitations...

So as usual, you are avoiding the question - by answering it with another question. But I will answer it for you...no worries.

The Celtics did not run the same defense for the roster in 2006-07 - as they did with a completely different group of players the following year. Anyone that thinks the coaching staff writes up some kind of scheme, implements it, and then lets it run on its own is truly dense. Do you think the Triangle offense that Tex Winter invented is the same one that is being run by the Lakers today? Do you really think the Lakers iteration of that offense is EVEN CLOSE to the one the Bulls and MJ ran? Give me a break.

Of course the Celtics are not the same team that they were in 2007-08. They are a step older, a step slower, and have different personnel. Any coach with half an once of common sense is going to tweak his schemes to take best advantage of the players at his disposal. Heck, the Celtics have a slightly different defensive scheme for bench players then they do with starters. Remember how James Posey and Tony Allen used to press at points in the game? Did you ever see KG and Ray Allen run a full court press? Exactly. Because the coaching staff altered their schemes to take advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of the players on the court at the time. Cant believe you are going to stick to this point....but OK.
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Post by Sam Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:58 pm

One reason the Celtics gave up more points this past regular season than they they did two seasons earlier is because the degree of discontinuity that bogged them down this past season didn't occur in 2007-08. The eight players with the most minutes missed a collective 48 games in 2007-08 versus a collective 113 games this past season.

Discontinuity compromises a defense like that of the Celtics by messing up the timing that is critical to their defensive scheme.

Comparing this year's Celtics team with the 2007-08 championship team is most fairly accomplished when both teams were at full strength throughout most of the playoffs—not when then were hurtin' for certain throughout most of the past regular season.

In the 2007-08 playoffs, the four teams the Celtics faced averaged 98.3 PPG during the regular season. In the playoffs, the Celtics held those four playoff opponents to a collective 88.7 PPG (or 90.2% of the scoring average of those four teams during the regular season).

In the 2009-10 playoffs, the four teams the Celtics faced averaged 100.8 PPG during the regular season—higher than the opponents' average during the 2007-08 season. In the 2009-10 playoffs, the Celtics held those four playoff opponents to a collective 90.2 PPG (or 89.5% of the average of those four teams during the regular season.

So the 2009-10 Celtics did a slightly better job of holding their four higher-scoring playoff opponents to below their regular season scoring norm than the 2007-08 Celtics did.

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Post by Sam Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:07 pm

The defense on the 2006-07 Celtics team bore faint resemblance to the defenses of later Celtics teams. The earlier team was comprised largely of kids, especially with the captain and leader missing 43% of the season. There was no way that inexperienced roster, while losing well in excess of 240 man-games due to injury, could deal with the complexity and precise timing involved in the later defense, so the defense that season was necessarily "dumbed down." When Gerald Green is the only Celtic to play in as many as 81 games, that pretty much says it all about the defense.

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Post by worcester Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:30 pm

Re Shaq, once I again I state that teams won't be fouling our guys so hard as they did last year with little in the way of retribution. I view Shaq as a preventive medicine component to the franchise, and that's a plus.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:40 pm

worse agreed now with so many big bodies and all with 6 fouls,gonna be fun watching the elephants rumble and stomp on people.....were old and deep,this is gonna be the most punishing Celtic team ever!!!!

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Post by worcester Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:02 am

Cow, that reminds me of the Dovells song, The Bristol Stomp"

The kids in Bristol are sharp as a pistol (Chorus)
When they do the Bristol Stomp
Really somethin when they join in jumpin
When they do the Bristol Stomp

Whoa whoa they start spinnin every Friday night
They dance the greatest and they do it right
Well its the latest its the greatest sight to see

Repeat Chorus (whoa, oh, oh , ah-ah-ah, oh)

Whoa whoa it started in Bristol at a dee jay hop
They hollered and whistled never wanted to stop
We pony and twisted and we rocked with Daddy G
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Post by Sam Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:02 pm

The most recent posts got me thinking about how Celtics teams over the years might match up weight-wise. So I added the weights of the 12 players who played in the most games for four championship teams plus this coming year's team as currently constituted (including Perk but excluding Harangody and Bradley to limit it to 12). The four championship teams were from 1962-63, 1975-76, 1985-86, and 2007-08.

I was stunned at the consistency between the first three of those teams:

1962-63 2,453 pounds
1975-76 2,448 pounds
1985-86 2,453 pounds

The millenium seems prone to beefier teams:

2007-08 2,749 pounds
2010-11 2,852 pounds

So it could be said that, from the Russell Years to the present, the Celtics have become 16.2% heavier. (Of course, the earlier teams might surpass the current team if their current-day weights were used in the calculation.)

Just for the heck of it, I also did a corresponding calculation for the coming season Lakers team, excluding the two rookies (who would have put the number of players over 12, excluding Sasha (who is currently on the roster), and including Shannon Brown (who is currently not on the roster). Their total is 2,723. It appears that most of the weight difference between the two teams could be laid at the door of Shaq. Hey hey hey!

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Post by bobheckler Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:04 pm

Sam wrote:The most recent posts got me thinking about how Celtics teams over the years might match up weight-wise. So I added the weights of the 12 players who played in the most games for four championship teams plus this coming year's team as currently constituted (including Perk but excluding Harangody and Bradley to limit it to 12). The four championship teams were from 1962-63, 1975-76, 1985-86, and 2007-08.

I was stunned at the consistency between the first three of those teams:

1962-63 2,453 pounds
1975-76 2,448 pounds
1985-86 2,453 pounds

The millenium seems prone to beefier teams:

2007-08 2,749 pounds
2010-11 2,852 pounds

So it could be said that, from the Russell Years to the present, the Celtics have become 16.2% heavier. (Of course, the earlier teams might surpass the current team if their current-day weights were used in the calculation.)

Just for the heck of it, I also did a corresponding calculation for the coming season Lakers team, excluding the two rookies (who would have put the number of players over 12, excluding Sasha (who is currently on the roster), and including Shannon Brown (who is currently not on the roster). Their total is 2,723. It appears that most of the weight difference between the two teams could be laid at the door of Shaq. Hey hey hey!

Sam

sam,

If using today's weights, Tommy alone could carry his era's team.

bob

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Post by tjmakz Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:48 pm

Possible 4 team trade in the works: (Ariza and Posey are players that have been named).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5455472
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Post by mrkleen09 Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:57 pm

Talk about a bunch of no impact players going in a big circle Cool
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Post by tjmakz Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:02 pm

Decent players, but none of the teams are true contendors.
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Post by bobheckler Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:07 pm

tjmakz wrote:Possible 4 team trade in the works: (Ariza and Posey are players that have been named).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5455472

TJ,

Interesting. My first impression of this is just a general smushing around of players. No team will significantly improve. I like Troy Murphy, always have since the GSW days, but I'm taking a wait-and-see stance on NJ. They've stockpiled some talent (Lopez, Morrow, Favors, Farmar, Harris, May) and the addition of Murphy will beef up their frontline, but who knows how they'll play together. Lord knows improving to where they are merely excrement would be a big step up.

NO will gain speed and youth with Ariza, but this is about making CP3 [less] PO'd. I'd have to say the Posey Experiment in NO didn't work. Once again, this highlights "teamwork" over individual talents. Posey is very talented and gets the job done in the right system playing with other compatible players in that system. The Celtics in 2008 was the right system with the right players for him.



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Post by Outside Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:54 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Talk about a bunch of no impact players going in a big circle Cool
Actually, I think they're mostly pretty good players. It's the teams that are no-impact.

Troy Murphy is a solid offensive player -- 14.6 pts, 10.2 reb last season, good shooting pct, also shoots threes. He's below the radar because he's in Indiana and Danny Granger gets more notice there. Murphy's biggest downside is his contract ($11.9 million this year, tops on the Pacers), but NJ has the cap space to absorb it, and this is the last year of his contract. If this goes through, I think NJ benefits the most from the deal. A very nice addition, basketball-wise.

Darren Collison is undersized but did exceptionally well last year when Chris Paul was hurt. Very good rookie season, lots of potential. Did well enough that some people thought the Hornets should get rid of Paul and turn the team over to Collison.

Courtney Lee and Trevor Ariza didn't do well last year when forced into primary scorer roles, but they are valuable complementary players with bright futures.

Posey is the least valuable of the bunch. He's on the downside of his career and has an overpriced contract that runs through 2011-12.
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Post by mrkleen09 Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:04 pm

Outside wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:Talk about a bunch of no impact players going in a big circle Cool
Actually, I think they're mostly pretty good players. It's the teams that are no-impact.

Define pretty good. These guys are middle of the pack, 6th man at best, 8th man at worst players....going from one zero impact team to another zero impact team.
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Post by Outside Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:47 am

mrkleen09 wrote:
Outside wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:Talk about a bunch of no impact players going in a big circle Cool
Actually, I think they're mostly pretty good players. It's the teams that are no-impact.

Define pretty good. These guys are middle of the pack, 6th man at best, 8th man at worst players....going from one zero impact team to another zero impact team.

I separated the issue of the players' quality from the fact that the teams involved are "no-impact" (none made the playoffs last season).

I didn't say all-star; I said "pretty good." To me, a pretty good NBA player is one who could start or otherwise be a major contributor on an upper tier team. Murphy, Collison, Ariza, and Lee are all pretty good.

Both Ariza and Lee started on NBA finals teams in 2009. That was Lee's rookie season. As I mentioned previously, neither player excelled when forced into a primary scorer role last year, but both clearly showed in the prior season that they can be good players on championship-level teams.

I've followed Murphy since his days with Golden State, and he's shown his ability to score and rebound is not a fluke. These are Murphy's stats last year, and I'd say they show him to be a pretty good player:

14.6 points
1.8 3-pointers made
.472 total field goal percentage
.384 3-point percentage
.798 free throw percentage
10.2 rebounds (7th best in the league)
2.1 assists
1.0 steals
0.5 blocks
1.4 turnovers

Here are Collison's stats for his entire rookie season last year, which are pretty good:

12.4 points
0.6 3-points made
.477 total field goal percentage
.400 3-point percentage
.851 free throw percentage
5.7 assists (17th best in the league)
1.0 steals
2.5 rebounds
2.7 turnovers

Here are Collison's stats in the 37 games he started, which are better than pretty good:

18.8 points
1.0 3-points made
.478 total field goal percentage
.417 3-point percentage
.837 free throw percentage
9.1 assists (would tie him with Jason Kidd for 5th best in the league)
1.4 steals
3.5 rebounds
4.1 turnovers

Collison had 35 points in one game, 32 in another. He had 20 assists in one game, 18 in another. He had a triple-double game of 18 points, 12 assists, and 13 rebounds.

These are good players. It's inaccurate to say they are "middle of the pack, 6th man at best, 8th man at worst players."

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:58 am

Chris Mannix of SI has Miami trying to go after Posey if Bird buys him out.
He also mentioned that the Celtics would be interested in bringing him in.

Are we not trying to catch the past in a bottle here? Posey was never the same player in New Orleans that he was here. But that was two, going on three seasons ago. Looks like Danny did the right thing not tying himself into a four year deal with Posey. I wonder, though, if he might not bring the toughness back to the Celtics defense that they gave up with Allen.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:23 am

Darren Collison is a great young point guard with as much potential as any young point in the league,I love this move for Pacers......Larry Legend finally made a great move.

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Post by swedeinestonia Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:00 am

Posey would be a good pickup for Miami.

Dont know why Indiana would buy him out though unless it was already part of the trade deal (aka Posey letting himself get bought out cheap).
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Post by tjmakz Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:29 am

None of this Posey talk makes any sense for the following reasons:

1) Why would Posey give up any money to be waived from the Pacers? If he signs for the veteran minimum (let's say 2 years/$2m), I can't see him taking less then an $11m buyout from the Pacers since they owe him $13m over the next two years.
2) Why would the Pacers pay him $11m to leave? He is still a servicable player. Wouldn't it be better to pay him $13m to play for them over the next two years then pay him $11m to not play for them?
3)Miami already has 16 or 17 players that have already signed for next year. They already have to waive one or two of their recently signed players to get to 15 players. What other contract will they eat in order to bring in Posey?

I don't see the Pacers waiving Posey unless he is wiling to leave with millions left on the table.
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Post by worcester Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:35 am

very astute tj
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Post by bobheckler Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:50 am

Makes sense to me, TJ.

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:59 am

That is just what Mannix said, I agree with you. And now I read in an update that Posey will not seek a buyout, per his agent. So, it was a stupid assumption by Mannix to start off with. I never understood how all these crazy rumors start regarding players. I think these writers start them just to have something to talk about, and claim to be the first to have predicted it.
I guess it is all in the job!!
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Post by NYCelt Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:06 am

Rosalie,

Maybe you're on to something; kind of a form of writer job security.

Regards
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Post by bobheckler Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:33 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:That is just what Mannix said, I agree with you. And now I read in an update that Posey will not seek a buyout, per his agent. So, it was a stupid assumption by Mannix to start off with. I never understood how all these crazy rumors start regarding players. I think these writers start them just to have something to talk about, and claim to be the first to have predicted it.
I guess it is all in the job!!

rosalie,

Same with politics and fortune telling. People remember when you're right but forget how many times you're wrong. Remember Jeanne Dixon, the fortune teller who claimed to have predicted JFK's death (I'm dating myself now)? Right once, on a BIG one, and wrong so very many times before and after that. Nobody remembers those, though.

bob

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Post by jeb Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:40 pm


Bob

As many different very powerful freaks as jfk was pissing off that was a pretty easy pick.
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