Re: Post Game Thread - Celtics Nip The Knicks 118-116 Wed 12/15/2010

[mrkleen09]

LOL. Ah, well. MrKleen, I was trying to present a moderated position and move toward more common ground, but I guess that didn't work. It's not my intent to get into a confrontation about the whole deal. There's lots of bright people here who know a lot about basketball, and you're one of them. Not everyone has the same opinion, and that's okay.

And you as well. I was just trying to say that there is some inconsistency to the statement that Paul Pierce is not clutch because he often reverts to isolation, while simultaneously presenting a long list of players who primarily score in isolation.

[bobheckler]

Bob's "9 out of 10" statement may be an exaggeration, but he's far from the only person here who doesn't like seeing a Pierce iso in crunch time. Is there some resource out there that can say how effective he is in that situation? How often in the last minute of a game he scores vs. a miss, turnover, or pass out that leads to a poor shot? His "clutch" stats for last season on 82games.com aren't particularly remarkable (http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM), but that's for the last five minutes of close games, not last-shot situations.

I don't know what the definitive stats are, but my sense is that he's not as effective as he used to be and that his iso plays have a poor result more often than not. But I know for my part, my dislike for his iso plays is based on a philosophical dislike for that type of play to begin with. The play they ran to get KG a layup at the end of the Philly game, now that was a thing of beauty.

Again you guys like to use stats – but only as far as they serve you. Here are the top point scorers on your so called “Clutch” list.
James
Bryant
Nowitzki
Anthony
Nash
Hamilton
Carter
Johnson
Paul
Roy
Billups
Williams
Evans
Durant

You might as well re-name that list “The Best Isolation Players In The NBA” – clearly none of those guys are scoring at the end of games running 5 man offensive plays. But again, lets just pull out random stats.

mrkleen,

"Top Point Scorers" does not equate to "Best Clutch Shooters". In the case of at least the top 3 of your list, they also take the most fga.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT5.HTM

Their names also appear at or near the top of the list for fta.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT9.HTM

Between taking the most clutch fga and taking the most clutch fta, it's not surprising they are the "Top Scorers".

bob

.

[mrkleen09]

Bob's "9 out of 10" statement may be an exaggeration, but he's far from the only person here who doesn't like seeing a Pierce iso in crunch time. Is there some resource out there that can say how effective he is in that situation? How often in the last minute of a game he scores vs. a miss, turnover, or pass out that leads to a poor shot? His "clutch" stats for last season on 82games.com aren't particularly remarkable (http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM), but that's for the last five minutes of close games, not last-shot situations.

I don't know what the definitive stats are, but my sense is that he's not as effective as he used to be and that his iso plays have a poor result more often than not. But I know for my part, my dislike for his iso plays is based on a philosophical dislike for that type of play to begin with. The play they ran to get KG a layup at the end of the Philly game, now that was a thing of beauty.

Again you guys like to use stats – but only as far as they serve you. Here are the top point scorers on your so called “Clutch” list.
James
Bryant
Nowitzki
Anthony
Nash
Hamilton
Carter
Johnson
Paul
Roy
Billups
Williams
Evans
Durant

You might as well re-name that list “The Best Isolation Players In The NBA” – clearly none of those guys are scoring at the end of games running 5 man offensive plays. But again, lets just pull out random stats.

mrkleen,

"Top Point Scorers" does not equate to "Best Clutch Shooters". In the case of at least the top 3 of your list, they also take the most fga.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT5.HTM

Their names also appear at or near the top of the list for fta.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT9.HTM

Between taking the most clutch fga and taking the most clutch fta, it's not surprising they are the "Top Scorers".

bob

.

Its also not surprising they score most of their points on isolation plays.

[beat]

My 2 cents

Mostly I hate the iso. Regardless if it's PP or anyone. (t's gotten lebron a lot of rings)

But last night at the time RR was hurtin. Even if PP missed we probably had overtime ahead of us as the clock most assuredly would have run out on any miss.

But still I dislike it at the ending of quarters and esp at the end of a game.

beat

[mrkleen09]

My 2 cents

Mostly I hate the iso. Regardless if it's PP or anyone. (t's gotten lebron a lot of rings)

Beat. How has it worked out for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant?

[dboss]

I started this thread ...maybe I can tie it up.

Good discussion on the PP ISO play.

I thought it was a great play. Firstly we have seen PP defer to RA several times this year where Paul will draw the defense in and find Ray open in the corner for a shot. We have seen KG get the ball at the end of games, like the alley opp from Rajon. And we have seen PP task the last shot as well.

Overall there is more diversity when it comes to the last offensive play run by the Celtics this year.

PP is the Celtics best option because he can get to the hole, pass the ball to an open teammate or score from the perimeter like he did against the Knicks.

The Knicks were crushed last night by the Heat. The Knicks cannot beat the elite teams in the NBA.... Not his year anyways.

dboss

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