Lakers Bench last evening

They scored just 6 total points against Oklahoma City including an OT!


Pts
J. Powell 4
S. Brown 0
J. Farmar 0
S. Vujacic 2
L. Walton 0
D. Mbenga 0

Plus look at the minutes the starters had to play



K. Bryant G 45:41
D. Fisher G 34:48
A. Bynum C 48:42
R. Artest F 46:54
L. Odom F 42:57

I see issues here for them big issues. What if Gasol's hammy doesn't get better and is a nagging concern all season.
Bynum going over 48 in an OT game?
Guess we will just have to sit back and see how this all pans out but as of right now, I like our chances.

beat

beat,

I absolutely agree about this. In fact, I just wrote a post at BDC about this. Maybe I'll just cut-and-paste it here. FWIW, cole-ely thinks OKC will be a .500 team this year. I think they're still too young and too thin, but I'm not always right and I've got a long list of exes that'll testify to that.
________________________________________

OKC is one of the worst teams in the league. LA needed OT to beat them.

Grater is right when he says a win is a win. But an OT win over a terrible team doesn't inspire, to say the least. Especially when they needed to knock off OKC easily and rest their players because they're playing Houston tonight. They didn't do that. KoME played almost 46 minutes. In fact, the only starter who didn't play over 40 minutes was 35 year old Fisher and he played more than usual too.

The fact they are without Gasol is of interest, but not significant. Not against OKC. Against Denver? Sure, but not OKC. The Lakers seaon start is highlighting their lack of a bench. Last night, no sub even played 13 minutes for the Lakers. In an OT game against a bad team, Phil Jackson still wasn't comfortable letting the bench off the bench.

The Celtics went about 2 months without KG, our best player, and still won at the same clip and held off Orlando for the 2nd best record in the east. We played without our best player, his backup (Scal) and his backup (Powe) for the entire playoffs and still took the team that went to the Finals to 7. Injuries are part of the game, and that's true for the Lakers as well as the Celtics. It's why we have benches.

LA should have buried OKC, even without Gasol, last night. The difference between the two teams is that significant. They would have too, if they had a bench their coach had confidence in. As it was, he needed to burn up his starters more than other coaches would have because he doesn't.

bob
KoME's averaging almost 40mpg so far. His career average is 36. If they don't drop his minutes, he'll be burned out come May. He's not young anymore and he's not getting younger. By the time the playoff come around he'll have about as many minutes on him, career, as KG has on him now and look at how we're trying to protect him.

Bob

IT will be interesting to see what the lakers will bring into Houston tonight.
Kind of curious to watch Ariza in this one.
It is a long season and it is very early. Will these actions of extending minutes on the starters so early into the season spell doom later?

And what if Mt. Artest goes postal?

beat

Without Gasol the Lakers are going to rely more on Artest for scoring. That might help his development with the team. Yes? No?

beat wrote:Bob

IT will be interesting to see what the lakers will bring into Houston tonight.
Kind of curious to watch Ariza in this one.
It is a long season and it is very early. Will these actions of extending minutes on the starters so early into the season spell doom later?

And what if Mt. Artest goes postal?

beat

beat,

"If" or "When"?

bob

Bob
Good question? No answer as of now. I always believe for the most part you are whom you are and little changes in that. Artest is a tough player but he is on the "other" side of his best years by a little anyway. Will he work as hard as he needs too to be able to maintain a good level of play? Will he accept NOT being able to do the things he used to do with ease?

I don't think his head has ever been on too straight in the first place.

Will be an intertaining thing to keep an eye on.

Hoop

In answer to you question.

No. The lakers without Gasol hurts development because perhaps the second most important player is not there. When he does return, who will give up the most offense (shots) for Pau to get his? I t won't be Kobe.

We shall see.

beat

Hoopdeedoo wrote:Without Gasol the Lakers are going to rely more on Artest for scoring. That might help his development with the team. Yes? No?

hoop,

Ron Artest is a 42% career fg shooter. He shot 40% last year in Houston. He had a good night last night, 6-8, but is only shooting 41.7% season-to-date. Imagine how bad he was before last night!

I'm not sure having a 42% career shooter shooting more is gonna help the Lakers offense. Artest has, to his credit, done a good job of generating assists. He's averaging 4.3/game so far, his career avg is 3.2. That tells me he's already well integrated into the Lakers offense.

I think the only cure for no Gasol is for Bynum to step up, which he's doing, AND for Odom to step up, which he's not really doing (his scoring so far is down from his career avg even though he's playing more minutes).

The Ariza-Artest matchup tonight will be interesting.

bob

Fellas

Their bench is anemic ...period. With or without squaw Gasol. Hence they will have to decide 1.) whether they want to win each game against tough opponent 2.) whether they want to rest starters and risk losing the game.

It is one thing in terms of rest to sit on the bench and watch your reserves protect the lead you fought so hard to get. It's quite another to watch them blow it (see bbd and kg last year) ...one could argue that to see your lead go bye bye and know you have to go bck out and slow the whirring buzzsaw is very stressful rest. See the Celtics most all of last year.

It is going to be fun to watch. Hamstrings are a bitch. I hope Pau is ok cuz I want to be full strength and I want them to be full strength. His team won this summer. Wonder if it's going to be worth it.

Jeb

bobheckler wrote:

OKC is one of the worst teams in the league. LA needed OT to beat them.


KoME's averaging almost 40mpg so far. His career average is 36. If they don't drop his minutes, he'll be burned out come May. He's not young anymore and he's not getting younger. By the time the playoff come around he'll have about as many minutes on him, career, as KG has on him now and look at how we're trying to protect him.

Bob, Beat, Jeb:

LA's bench weakness has really been exposed with Pau out, as it causes a chain reaction.

At full strength, the normal rotation is to have Odom come in for Bynum and play with the starters for a bit, then remain on the floor as bench players come in with Bynum. With BYnum and Odom on the court, the other bench player's weaknesses aren't as apparent. With Pau out and LO in the starting lineup, LA is now bringing in Josh Powell and Mbenga, so they end up with a lineup of five guys where no one commands a double and no one can create a quality shot for themselves.

At the beginning of last year, their bench was actually a strength, but:

Farmar regressed rapidly and noticeably: he is now playing at about the same level as when he was a rookie. Expiring (thankfully) $2m deal.

The Douche played ok in his contract year, but that was partially b/c with Ariza hurt and Walton an ineffective starter, the douche was on the court with the starters closing games so he got a lot of wide open looks off doubles on Kobe or Pau, which inflated his numbers. He doesn't get those looks with the second unit, and did I mention that he absolutely sucks and is worthless ? HE's getting $5m now and $5.5 next year to suck.

Every time I see him I want to kill him b/c if they had just let that worthless turd walk two years ago, they could have easily re-signed Ariza last summer (who was always happy to come off the bench, who is from LA and loved LA) AND brought in Artest this summer. We then wouldn't be having this discussion, as Trev could have backed up the 2 and 3, and gotten minutes in a big lineup with Kobe @ 1, Trev @ 2, and Ron @ 3. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! I f***king hate the douche!

Walton- a serviceable player in a limited role, he came up big in some stretches during the playoffs last year, but his playmaking skills (his biggest asset) go to waste when he's on the floor with the likes of the douche. He's better off when a couple of starters are mixed in with three bench players. He's also wildly overpaid for his skillset- $4.8m this year, 3 yrs/$17m after. The worst contract on the team and almost untradeable. (I say almost because after seeing Zach Randolph traded 3 times in the last two years, anything is possible.)

Powell is actually a solid 3rd PF who plays well when mixed in with a couple of starters. The problem is he's now playing as the second PF with Pau out, and when he's on the all bench lineup, he doesn't get the open looks for his jumper (which is his game). A good player for $1M/ 1 yr deal, though.

Mbenga is a high energy guy who is a good 3rd string "break glass in case of emergency" player. When the entire Laker frontline was in foul trouble in the first half of Game 4 vs Orlando last year, Mbenga and Powell actually gave the Lakers some quality minutes and helped keep them in the game. But there's a big difference between playing 7 or 8 minutes with KB, Ariza and Fisher vs 12 or 15 min with farmar, walton and the douche.


Morrisson is dead weight cap relief from getting rid of Radmanovich and his terrible deal. The only good things about Ammo are that his $5.2m deal expires this year and that Shannon Brown came along in that deal.


Notice a common link here ? None of these guys is effective unless playing with at least a couple of starters. THey don't have a second unit. They have a bunch of guys who can fill in some gaps, but not play together as a unit b/c they can't get quality shots. But for some reason, Phil has been trying to play them as a unit to disastrous results. They (as a unit) have all sucked every time they've been on the floor together.


Which brings us to Shannon Brown. He is the only bench player, besides LO, obviously, who is worth anything. And how much is Phil playing him ? 12 minutes a night. It's insane. He's only shooting .667% from the floor and 60% on threes so far this year. Obviously, those numbers will drop into a normal zone as time goes on, but still, the guy was a huge difference-maker in the playoffs last year, has been great every time he gets on the floor this year and yet can't seem to get any minutes while worthless idiots like farmar and the douche get minutes. It's mind-boggling.


My only assumption/hope is that Phil is playing Farmar and the Douche a lot b/c Mitch is planning on packaging one or both of them with Ammo's deal to unload them to someone looking for cap relief. They did the same thing with Radmonovich before dealing him last year, and with Brian Cook and Mo Evans (who they traded for Ariza) the year before. Every Laker fan I know is hoping and praying this happens.

So yes- you guys are right. LA's bench is a problem, although I think they will do something to address it. Part of the solution will be Pau coming back, part of it is Brown getting minutes and part of it is always keeping a couple of starters on floor (like Doc has done with Pierce and Ray at times in the past), but I really hope part of it involves getting a new player or two, b/c going into the playoffs with Farmar and the douche on the bench would not make me happy.



PS- Bob,

I think you are vastly underrating OKC. They are far from one of the worst teams in the league. (This is in no way to defend LA's bench, which is why I saved this as a PS.) They have the best collection of young talent in the league IMO.

Durant, Westbrook and Green are all ballers. Thebo S. and Etan Thomas are playing gritty hard-nosed d for them (which they needed) and Harden was a solid addition (although I would have picked Rubio, but that's a whole different story).

Their record last year was a bit distorted b/c they got off to such a horrible start. But once they brought in Brooks, who is a good young coach, they started to turn it around, and they had some quality wins down the stretch last year against playoff teams who were fighting for position. They have started this year off well. If Durant hadn't been in an incredible shooting funk vs POrtland the other night, thy would be 3-1, and they had plenty of chances to beat the Lakers last night.

They're going to be an interesting team to watch grow up. It's a unique situation with their young core growing together and improving as rapidly as they have. And their home court has a college atmosphere to it.

I think they will be fighting with Utah, Houston, and New Orleans for one of the last two playoff slots in the West. Don't sleep on these guys, they are good. I saw them last year live and am going to see them at Staples in a couple of weeks b/c they are fun to watch.

If you have a chance, you should definitely watch them when they play the Cs. You'll see what I'm talking about.

IMO, the biggest mistake of the NBA schedule-makers was not getting these guys on national tv at all this year.

Sky,

I'm no Lakers fan. But I don't think it's as easy as saying the bench sucks.

Last year, the absence of KG (plus others from time to time) caused far more problems than just the loss of his presence. It threw the entire rotation out of whack because key bench players became starters, leaving no leadership for the bench.

With both Odom and Bynum starting, who is the bench leader on the Lakers? I've never thought they had that great a bench, but it's certainly better than it now appears without a leader. And, when the starting unit is one again intact, a decent bench (bolstered by the presence of either Odom or Bynum) could be sufficient to make the team highly competitive.

In this age of max salaries, any team is very fortunate to put a great starting five on the floor, to say nothing of having another fine player to lead an otherwise mediocre bench. I think any assessment of the Lakers bench is preature until Pau is back and the rotation approaches normalcy.

I have the feeling that figuring out the right role for Brown is probably one of Phil's most vexing quandaries right now. Shannon seems to have great abilities along with some question marks. That sounds very much like a description of Rondo in the not-too-distant past. Consistently playing with experienced starters helped to iron out some of Rondo's issues and compensate for others. Phil could be well-advised to consider the same scenario when Pau comes back.

In the meantime, I'm sure Phil is trying to determine what will most help the Lakers win now, as I frankly don't envision him as being terribly concerned with the Lakers' future. (That may be mean-spirited on my part, but I believe it.)

Don't get down on your team. You know as well as I do that quality rises to the top, and I hope and expect we'll be exchanging friendly pleasantries at finals time.

Sam

The bench serves the function of resting the starting lineup and substituting in case of an injury to a starter.

That said, when Gasol returns all that would do is send Odom to the bench. No rotation snafus or anything. The fact is that the Lakers bench suck and for them to be somewhat productive, some starters have to remain playing, they do not function as a cohesive, intelligent nor talented 2nd unit.

In Boston's case last year our error was not upgrading the bench since we lost 3 vital components to it and as a result our bench got 2 young 2 fast. What happened? Pierce and Ray had to be on the floor at all times. This year we have a veteran bench which functions as a 2nd unit all their own and as a unit they have been manhandling the opposition.

THAT is the difference as you can from the games so far. We actually have the same starting lineup, our strength this year are our subs. If LA doesn't address this soon they probably end up wearing the shoes we had to wear last year. As it is, they can ill afford that to happen for they won't reach the vicinity of 62 games this season and probably not even the playoffs.

Too farfetched?

Ponder:

1-Bynum's yearly knee injury.
2. Bryant's burned out body at this pace.
3. Gasol alone can't do shit. He's no Pierce.
4. Odom's already sign his contract and you know what that means.
5. Fisher can only do so much and not enough against elite PG's.
6. Mt. Artest

In the name of common sense, wouldn't a practical LA fan pray for a decent bench then?

Sam wrote:Sky,

I'm no Lakers fan. But I don't think it's as easy as saying the bench sucks.

Last year, the absence of KG (plus others from time to time) caused far more problems than just the loss of his presence. It threw the entire rotation out of whack because key bench players became starters, leaving no leadership for the bench.

With both Odom and Bynum starting, who is the bench leader on the Lakers? I've never thought they had that great a bench, but it's certainly better than it now appears without a leader. And, when the starting unit is one again intact, a decent bench (bolstered by the presence of either Odom or Bynum) could be sufficient to make the team highly competitive.

In this age of max salaries, any team is very fortunate to put a great starting five on the floor, to say nothing of having another fine player to lead an otherwise mediocre bench. I think any assessment of the Lakers bench is preature until Pau is back and the rotation approaches normalcy.

I have the feeling that figuring out the right role for Brown is probably one of Phil's most vexing quandaries right now. Shannon seems to have great abilities along with some question marks. That sounds very much like a description of Rondo in the not-too-distant past. Consistently playing with experienced starters helped to iron out some of Rondo's issues and compensate for others. Phil could be well-advised to consider the same scenario when Pau comes back.

In the meantime, I'm sure Phil is trying to determine what will most help the Lakers win now, as I frankly don't envision him as being terribly concerned with the Lakers' future. (That may be mean-spirited on my part, but I believe it.)

Don't get down on your team. You know as well as I do that quality rises to the top, and I hope and expect we'll be exchanging friendly pleasantries at finals time.

Sam

Sam-

I'm not down on the team at all. I am pissed that Trevor is not here and the douche is, but I've hated the douche for years. And I'm no fan of watching Farmar make the same dumb mistakes he's been making for years. So i'm a realist, but I'm not down on my team. Hells no!

As I said in the original post, a lot of this will be solved once Pau comes back and Brown starts getting real minutes again. It's so weird, though, that he's not getting minutes when he played so much (and so well) in the playoffs last year. THat's why I think/hope they are showcasing Farmar and the douche to try to let them build up some stats and look like decent players in preparation for a trade.

BUt now that Farmar is expiring and the douche only has one year left on his deal after this year, they become valuable trade commodities anyway based solely on their contracts (especially when packaged with Morrison's expring). SO I would like to see them gone.

But that doesn't mean I'm down on my team. I'm just always looking for them to make it as good as it could possibly be.

I'd love to see them make a move for Kirk Hinrich or Monta Ellis. Neither is cheap, but either one would solve the Lakers biggest weaknesses: pg and bench strength. Part of it will come down to how much salary BUss is willing to take on. THat might also be why Phil is playing these guys the way he is right now- to help convince Jerry B that it would be worth it to take on that type of deal.

But I'm in no way down on my team. It is a LLLLOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG season after all.

SKy

I think you should adjust to playin with what you got. We waited all year last year for help and we got Mikki Moore and Starbury.

You guys are the champs. People aint goin to stand in line to help you out. They instead are in line to stomp on your nuts.

Pau will help and Sam's point that your rotation is in flux is very valid. Brown seems like the real deal to me. I dont get phil on that one. But I dont get phil on a lot of things.

I think your a stand up guy to come on this forum and be so honest.

I really enjoy your post. Keep em coming.

Jeb

JEb-

there's a big difference between waiting for guys on the waiver wire and trading expiring contracts to teams looking to get rid of salary obligations. As we've seen ever since the Gasol trade, most of the big trades have been dictated by teams wanting to shed salaries and have not been about making sense from a basketball perspective. They've been driven by finances.

I'm just always looking for the Lakers to get better. I want them to be bulletproof, like those 80's lakers and celtics teams were. Just ridiculously loaded. it's obviously a different day because of the cap and lux tax, but there are definitely opportunities out there.

BElieve me, a team like Golden State is a lot less concerned about helping out the champs than they are about getting their financial house in order and/or moving disgruntled players b/c they're not contending for a title.

Same with Chicago- they know they're not contending this year, and if Salmons doesn't opt out they need to move Hinrich to clear enough cap space to sign Wade or Bosh next summer.

Glad you like the posts. I don't write anything on here that I wouldn't say directly to Jerry Buss, or to anyone else for that matter. I just let 'em fly.

I agree re: the rotation, etc, as I said in my posts above.

baby,

Speaking as someone who lives in the SF bay area and holds his nose and watches the GSW regularly I'm have to say that having Monta Ellis on your team will not "fix" anything. He's a Kobe-like player (without the multi-dimensions). He's a helluvan athlete. He's an on-the-ball player, so getting touches with Kobe and Gasol will be tough (and he WON'T like having fewer touches). He's a shoot first, pass second player.

What having Ellis will do is position the Lakers as Kobe's career winds down.

bob

Bob heck

Where do you live? I am out there working all the time. And will ultimately move back out there.

The Warriors are like watchin Dante wrestle the book of Job.

What a 5 alarm train wreck.


Jeb

jeb65 wrote:Bob heck

Where do you live? I am out there working all the time. And will ultimately move back out there.

The Warriors are like watchin Dante wrestle the book of Job.

What a 5 alarm train wreck.


Jeb

jeb,

I live down the peninsula, in San Carlos.

Nellie's gotta go. Period.

bob

Is it the owner? Nellie is terrible. Just terrible. You know who would be good. Doc. Or Larry Brown. They need a guy who can coach and mold their youth. They have some great young players.

Jeb

bobheckler wrote:

jeb65 wrote:Bob heck

Where do you live? I am out there working all the time. And will ultimately move back out there.

The Warriors are like watchin Dante wrestle the book of Job.

What a 5 alarm train wreck.


Jeb

jeb,

I live down the peninsula, in San Carlos.

Nellie's gotta go. Period.

bob

word.

Nellie= clown

babyskyhook wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

OKC is one of the worst teams in the league. LA needed OT to beat them.


KoME's averaging almost 40mpg so far. His career average is 36. If they don't drop his minutes, he'll be burned out come May. He's not young anymore and he's not getting younger. By the time the playoff come around he'll have about as many minutes on him, career, as KG has on him now and look at how we're trying to protect him.

Bob, Beat, Jeb:

LA's bench weakness has really been exposed with Pau out, as it causes a chain reaction.

At full strength, the normal rotation is to have Odom come in for Bynum and play with the starters for a bit, then remain on the floor as bench players come in with Bynum. With BYnum and Odom on the court, the other bench player's weaknesses aren't as apparent. With Pau out and LO in the starting lineup, LA is now bringing in Josh Powell and Mbenga, so they end up with a lineup of five guys where no one commands a double and no one can create a quality shot for themselves.

At the beginning of last year, their bench was actually a strength, but:

Farmar regressed rapidly and noticeably: he is now playing at about the same level as when he was a rookie. Expiring (thankfully) $2m deal.

The Douche played ok in his contract year, but that was partially b/c with Ariza hurt and Walton an ineffective starter, the douche was on the court with the starters closing games so he got a lot of wide open looks off doubles on Kobe or Pau, which inflated his numbers. He doesn't get those looks with the second unit, and did I mention that he absolutely sucks and is worthless ? HE's getting $5m now and $5.5 next year to suck.

Every time I see him I want to kill him b/c if they had just let that worthless turd walk two years ago, they could have easily re-signed Ariza last summer (who was always happy to come off the bench, who is from LA and loved LA) AND brought in Artest this summer. We then wouldn't be having this discussion, as Trev could have backed up the 2 and 3, and gotten minutes in a big lineup with Kobe @ 1, Trev @ 2, and Ron @ 3. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! I f***king hate the douche!

Walton- a serviceable player in a limited role, he came up big in some stretches during the playoffs last year, but his playmaking skills (his biggest asset) go to waste when he's on the floor with the likes of the douche. He's better off when a couple of starters are mixed in with three bench players. He's also wildly overpaid for his skillset- $4.8m this year, 3 yrs/$17m after. The worst contract on the team and almost untradeable. (I say almost because after seeing Zach Randolph traded 3 times in the last two years, anything is possible.)

Powell is actually a solid 3rd PF who plays well when mixed in with a couple of starters. The problem is he's now playing as the second PF with Pau out, and when he's on the all bench lineup, he doesn't get the open looks for his jumper (which is his game). A good player for $1M/ 1 yr deal, though.

Mbenga is a high energy guy who is a good 3rd string "break glass in case of emergency" player. When the entire Laker frontline was in foul trouble in the first half of Game 4 vs Orlando last year, Mbenga and Powell actually gave the Lakers some quality minutes and helped keep them in the game. But there's a big difference between playing 7 or 8 minutes with KB, Ariza and Fisher vs 12 or 15 min with farmar, walton and the douche.


Morrisson is dead weight cap relief from getting rid of Radmanovich and his terrible deal. The only good things about Ammo are that his $5.2m deal expires this year and that Shannon Brown came along in that deal.


Notice a common link here ? None of these guys is effective unless playing with at least a couple of starters. THey don't have a second unit. They have a bunch of guys who can fill in some gaps, but not play together as a unit b/c they can't get quality shots. But for some reason, Phil has been trying to play them as a unit to disastrous results. They (as a unit) have all sucked every time they've been on the floor together.


Which brings us to Shannon Brown. He is the only bench player, besides LO, obviously, who is worth anything. And how much is Phil playing him ? 12 minutes a night. It's insane. He's only shooting .667% from the floor and 60% on threes so far this year. Obviously, those numbers will drop into a normal zone as time goes on, but still, the guy was a huge difference-maker in the playoffs last year, has been great every time he gets on the floor this year and yet can't seem to get any minutes while worthless idiots like farmar and the douche get minutes. It's mind-boggling.


My only assumption/hope is that Phil is playing Farmar and the Douche a lot b/c Mitch is planning on packaging one or both of them with Ammo's deal to unload them to someone looking for cap relief. They did the same thing with Radmonovich before dealing him last year, and with Brian Cook and Mo Evans (who they traded for Ariza) the year before. Every Laker fan I know is hoping and praying this happens.

So yes- you guys are right. LA's bench is a problem, although I think they will do something to address it. Part of the solution will be Pau coming back, part of it is Brown getting minutes and part of it is always keeping a couple of starters on floor (like Doc has done with Pierce and Ray at times in the past), but I really hope part of it involves getting a new player or two, b/c going into the playoffs with Farmar and the douche on the bench would not make me happy.



PS- Bob,

I think you are vastly underrating OKC. They are far from one of the worst teams in the league. (This is in no way to defend LA's bench, which is why I saved this as a PS.) They have the best collection of young talent in the league IMO.

Durant, Westbrook and Green are all ballers. Thebo S. and Etan Thomas are playing gritty hard-nosed d for them (which they needed) and Harden was a solid addition (although I would have picked Rubio, but that's a whole different story).

Their record last year was a bit distorted b/c they got off to such a horrible start. But once they brought in Brooks, who is a good young coach, they started to turn it around, and they had some quality wins down the stretch last year against playoff teams who were fighting for position. They have started this year off well. If Durant hadn't been in an incredible shooting funk vs POrtland the other night, thy would be 3-1, and they had plenty of chances to beat the Lakers last night.

They're going to be an interesting team to watch grow up. It's a unique situation with their young core growing together and improving as rapidly as they have. And their home court has a college atmosphere to it.

I think they will be fighting with Utah, Houston, and New Orleans for one of the last two playoff slots in the West. Don't sleep on these guys, they are good. I saw them last year live and am going to see them at Staples in a couple of weeks b/c they are fun to watch.

If you have a chance, you should definitely watch them when they play the Cs. You'll see what I'm talking about.

IMO, the biggest mistake of the NBA schedule-makers was not getting these guys on national tv at all this year.

babyskyhook,

I think this is probably the best player-by-player review of the Lakers bench I've seen in a while and it's coming from a Laker fan. Kudos. Not that Laker fans can't do it, it's just that their purple-and-gold glasses sometimes fog things up.

If I can attempt to sum up your excellent analysis, it's that the Laker bench, individually and as a group, are not strong enough for Jackson to "platoon" them and that makes it tough for him to rest the starters since some (most?) of the starters have to stay on the floor to steady the subs inserted. Am I representing you fairly? The great thing about the Celtic bench is that we can platoon. In fact, in my admittedly green-blooded biased opinion (can you say "in fact" and then qualify it by saying it's just your "opinion"?), our 2nd unit could win 35 games as starters. That'd almost be enough for them to make the playoffs in the east (though probably not in the west).

If by "The Douche" you're referring to the player I call Sasha Eurobitch, I concur wholeheartedly and fervently. He is an ineffective, one-dimensional, no-defense player. He brings nothing to the game except a nice manicure and your scathing accusation of how he cost you Ariza is something to be considered. I suspect, since he was re-upped a few years ago, the Lakers might have signed another player to a multi-year and filled his spot, so the Ariza situation still would have played out the way it did anyway. However, that "other player" almost certainly would still be more valuable than that hair-twisting Euro-loser and Kobe wouldn't have to be playing ironman minutes now. Then again, the Lakers might have filled his spot by signing a serviceable Powell-level player to a short-term contract that expired last year or will expire after this year and your point could be dead-on. Imagine how overwhelming the Lakers would be if they had Artest AND Ariza!

Jackson should play Shannon Brown more. Play him as Fisher's backup. Play him as Kobe's backup (and sit Sasha's ass down), but play him. I don't understand why he isn't.

Jackson has a reputation for working well with egos and motivating players. The "Zen Master". He oughta spend a little time focusing on the egos and motivations of his bench. His starters don't need him now. They're on auto-pilot.

As far as OKC goes, we'll see as the season progresses. They're 2-2, with 3 of the 4 games at home. They lost to Portland (who's not coming out of the gate strong this season so far) and the Lakers (who are struggling with injuries). They beat Sacto and Detroit, not impressive foes to beat. They play Houston in Houston tomorrow and Orlando on Sunday. If they beat Houston, I might start to believe. If they lose both they'll be 2-4 with their wins against non-playoff teams (my prediction for Detroit) and their losses would be to playoff teams. Still, it's still very, very early.

bob

bobheckler wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

OKC is one of the worst teams in the league. LA needed OT to beat them.


KoME's averaging almost 40mpg so far. His career average is 36. If they don't drop his minutes, he'll be burned out come May. He's not young anymore and he's not getting younger. By the time the playoff come around he'll have about as many minutes on him, career, as KG has on him now and look at how we're trying to protect him.

Bob, Beat, Jeb:

LA's bench weakness has really been exposed with Pau out, as it causes a chain reaction.

At full strength, the normal rotation is to have Odom come in for Bynum and play with the starters for a bit, then remain on the floor as bench players come in with Bynum. With BYnum and Odom on the court, the other bench player's weaknesses aren't as apparent. With Pau out and LO in the starting lineup, LA is now bringing in Josh Powell and Mbenga, so they end up with a lineup of five guys where no one commands a double and no one can create a quality shot for themselves.

At the beginning of last year, their bench was actually a strength, but:

Farmar regressed rapidly and noticeably: he is now playing at about the same level as when he was a rookie. Expiring (thankfully) $2m deal.

The Douche played ok in his contract year, but that was partially b/c with Ariza hurt and Walton an ineffective starter, the douche was on the court with the starters closing games so he got a lot of wide open looks off doubles on Kobe or Pau, which inflated his numbers. He doesn't get those looks with the second unit, and did I mention that he absolutely sucks and is worthless ? HE's getting $5m now and $5.5 next year to suck.

Every time I see him I want to kill him b/c if they had just let that worthless turd walk two years ago, they could have easily re-signed Ariza last summer (who was always happy to come off the bench, who is from LA and loved LA) AND brought in Artest this summer. We then wouldn't be having this discussion, as Trev could have backed up the 2 and 3, and gotten minutes in a big lineup with Kobe @ 1, Trev @ 2, and Ron @ 3. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! I f***king hate the douche!

Walton- a serviceable player in a limited role, he came up big in some stretches during the playoffs last year, but his playmaking skills (his biggest asset) go to waste when he's on the floor with the likes of the douche. He's better off when a couple of starters are mixed in with three bench players. He's also wildly overpaid for his skillset- $4.8m this year, 3 yrs/$17m after. The worst contract on the team and almost untradeable. (I say almost because after seeing Zach Randolph traded 3 times in the last two years, anything is possible.)

Powell is actually a solid 3rd PF who plays well when mixed in with a couple of starters. The problem is he's now playing as the second PF with Pau out, and when he's on the all bench lineup, he doesn't get the open looks for his jumper (which is his game). A good player for $1M/ 1 yr deal, though.

Mbenga is a high energy guy who is a good 3rd string "break glass in case of emergency" player. When the entire Laker frontline was in foul trouble in the first half of Game 4 vs Orlando last year, Mbenga and Powell actually gave the Lakers some quality minutes and helped keep them in the game. But there's a big difference between playing 7 or 8 minutes with KB, Ariza and Fisher vs 12 or 15 min with farmar, walton and the douche.


Morrisson is dead weight cap relief from getting rid of Radmanovich and his terrible deal. The only good things about Ammo are that his $5.2m deal expires this year and that Shannon Brown came along in that deal.


Notice a common link here ? None of these guys is effective unless playing with at least a couple of starters. THey don't have a second unit. They have a bunch of guys who can fill in some gaps, but not play together as a unit b/c they can't get quality shots. But for some reason, Phil has been trying to play them as a unit to disastrous results. They (as a unit) have all sucked every time they've been on the floor together.


Which brings us to Shannon Brown. He is the only bench player, besides LO, obviously, who is worth anything. And how much is Phil playing him ? 12 minutes a night. It's insane. He's only shooting .667% from the floor and 60% on threes so far this year. Obviously, those numbers will drop into a normal zone as time goes on, but still, the guy was a huge difference-maker in the playoffs last year, has been great every time he gets on the floor this year and yet can't seem to get any minutes while worthless idiots like farmar and the douche get minutes. It's mind-boggling.


My only assumption/hope is that Phil is playing Farmar and the Douche a lot b/c Mitch is planning on packaging one or both of them with Ammo's deal to unload them to someone looking for cap relief. They did the same thing with Radmonovich before dealing him last year, and with Brian Cook and Mo Evans (who they traded for Ariza) the year before. Every Laker fan I know is hoping and praying this happens.

So yes- you guys are right. LA's bench is a problem, although I think they will do something to address it. Part of the solution will be Pau coming back, part of it is Brown getting minutes and part of it is always keeping a couple of starters on floor (like Doc has done with Pierce and Ray at times in the past), but I really hope part of it involves getting a new player or two, b/c going into the playoffs with Farmar and the douche on the bench would not make me happy.



PS- Bob,

I think you are vastly underrating OKC. They are far from one of the worst teams in the league. (This is in no way to defend LA's bench, which is why I saved this as a PS.) They have the best collection of young talent in the league IMO.

Durant, Westbrook and Green are all ballers. Thebo S. and Etan Thomas are playing gritty hard-nosed d for them (which they needed) and Harden was a solid addition (although I would have picked Rubio, but that's a whole different story).

Their record last year was a bit distorted b/c they got off to such a horrible start. But once they brought in Brooks, who is a good young coach, they started to turn it around, and they had some quality wins down the stretch last year against playoff teams who were fighting for position. They have started this year off well. If Durant hadn't been in an incredible shooting funk vs POrtland the other night, thy would be 3-1, and they had plenty of chances to beat the Lakers last night.

They're going to be an interesting team to watch grow up. It's a unique situation with their young core growing together and improving as rapidly as they have. And their home court has a college atmosphere to it.

I think they will be fighting with Utah, Houston, and New Orleans for one of the last two playoff slots in the West. Don't sleep on these guys, they are good. I saw them last year live and am going to see them at Staples in a couple of weeks b/c they are fun to watch.

If you have a chance, you should definitely watch them when they play the Cs. You'll see what I'm talking about.

IMO, the biggest mistake of the NBA schedule-makers was not getting these guys on national tv at all this year.

babyskyhook,

I think this is probably the best player-by-player review of the Lakers bench I've seen in a while and it's coming from a Laker fan. Kudos. Not that Laker fans can't do it, it's just that their purple-and-gold glasses sometimes fog things up.

If I can attempt to sum up your excellent analysis, it's that the Laker bench, individually and as a group, are not strong enough for Jackson to "platoon" them and that makes it tough for him to rest the starters since some (most?) of the starters have to stay on the floor to steady the subs inserted. Am I representing you fairly? The great thing about the Celtic bench is that we can platoon. In fact, in my admittedly green-blooded biased opinion (can you say "in fact" and then qualify it by saying it's just your "opinion"?), our 2nd unit could win 35 games as starters. That'd almost be enough for them to make the playoffs in the east (though probably not in the west).

If by "The Douche" you're referring to the player I call Sasha Eurobitch, I concur wholeheartedly and fervently. He is an ineffective, one-dimensional, no-defense player. He brings nothing to the game except a nice manicure and your scathing accusation of how he cost you Ariza is something to be considered. I suspect, since he was re-upped a few years ago, the Lakers might have signed another player to a multi-year and filled his spot, so the Ariza situation still would have played out the way it did anyway. However, that "other player" almost certainly would still be more valuable than that hair-twisting Euro-loser and Kobe wouldn't have to be playing ironman minutes now. Then again, the Lakers might have filled his spot by signing a serviceable Powell-level player to a short-term contract that expired last year or will expire after this year and your point could be dead-on. Imagine how overwhelming the Lakers would be if they had Artest AND Ariza!

Jackson should play Shannon Brown more. Play him as Fisher's backup. Play him as Kobe's backup (and sit Sasha's ass down), but play him. I don't understand why he isn't.

Jackson has a reputation for working well with egos and motivating players. The "Zen Master". He oughta spend a little time focusing on the egos and motivations of his bench. His starters don't need him now. They're on auto-pilot.

As far as OKC goes, we'll see as the season progresses. They're 2-2, with 3 of the 4 games at home. They lost to Portland (who's not coming out of the gate strong this season so far) and the Lakers (who are struggling with injuries). They beat Sacto and Detroit, not impressive foes to beat. They play Houston in Houston tomorrow and Orlando on Sunday. If they beat Houston, I might start to believe. If they lose both they'll be 2-4 with their wins against non-playoff teams (my prediction for Detroit) and their losses would be to playoff teams. Still, it's still very, very early.

bob

Bob-

your representation is 100% spot on.

It killed me watching Trevor play for Houston last night. Such a good guy and with a bright future. This bench would look entirely different with him coming off of it. 8 man rotation with LO, Trevor and Brown off the bench would have been dynamite come playoff time.

Brown needs to play. End of story. I'd give him minutes at the 1 and 2, since both Farmar and vuyadouche blow, and the only thing Brown really needs is game experience, which can only be gained through- GAME EXPERIENCE! It's driving my friends and I crazy that he's not playing real minutes.

I'm hoping that Phil has had it with Farmar and the douche, so he is exposing how horrible they are for all to see, so that when he is sitting down with Mitch and BUss and Phil is saying "You've got to ship these guys out and get me someone who can play", Buss will agree. Fingers crossed.




I could see OKC beating Houston. Orlando not so much. Going to be fun to watch them this year either way.

Bob-

John Hollinger is thinking the same thing we are.


HOUSTON -- "Welcome to my world, Phil."

That's what 14 other Western Conference coaches are thinking after watching how the Lakers have had to scratch and claw their way to an uneven 4-1 start in the absence of Pau Gasol, who has been out with a hamstring injury.

Two seasons ago, the Lakers bench was monstrously productive, providing a 10-deep framework around Kobe Bryant that didn't demand he put up monstrous numbers -- or minutes -- for L.A. to win.

This season? Not so much.

Sasharapova Vujacic can't get out of his own way, with only four points on the season, and is in danger of falling out of the rotation entirely. Ditto for Luke Walton, who is still looking for his first free throw attempt and seemed tentative in his limited run last night. Jordan Farmar? Not even close. Despite his talents, he's shooting 29.4 percent from the floor with as many turnovers as assists.

The result is something that's come as a shock to veteran Lakers watchers: Jackson has been going to the whip hard and heavy in the season's first nine days. L.A. has three starters averaging more than 40 minutes a game -- something no player in the league did a year ago. While that's been exacerbated by the two overtime games, Kobe Bryant would be at 39.6 just with his regulation minutes.

The other trend that's less visible on the stat sheet but palpable to anyone in the gym is the absence of Gasol's length. With a healthy Gasol alongside Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom, L.A. towers over most opponents in the paint.

Wednesday night, once again, the Lakers were killed on the defensive boards -- at times it seemed the Rockets' best play was having Trevor Ariza pass the ball off the rim to Carl Landry. In fact, allow me to present the year's most shocking stat thus far: L.A. is dead last in Defensive Rebound Rate at a paltry 67.3 percent.

Presumably, that will change once Gasol returns in the next few days. While it's unlikely he'll be available for the Scratchy Bearded Spanish Center world championships on Friday against brother Marc in Memphis, the Lakers seem optimistic that he could return early next week after an MRI confirmed his hamstring injury was only a strain.

But even with that good, there's some bad. Gasol's return would remove from the rotation the only L.A. reserve who has played anything resembling decent basketball. Josh Powell is off to a splendid start and earned praise from Jackson last night for a strong stint in the second quarter. Worse yet, Gasol may be coming just as his bookend 7-footer is going. Center Andrew Bynum hurt his elbow toward the end of last night's win in Houston and will be evaluated Thursday.

If both players can come back and Lamar Odom can return to his sixth man role, perhaps the worries over L.A.'s bench are all much ado about nothing. That's particularly true if L.A. can still swing a trade for some more backcourt help, with Adam Morrison's expiring $5.3 million deal providing the most obvious trading chip.

But the worry is that Jackson's riding of the starters so heavily so early will have damaging consequences as we get into the spring. Bryant is in exquisite shape, but he's 31 with more miles on his legs than any other 31-year-old in league history; perhaps it's hubris to take his indestructibility for granted. Veterans like Odom and Ron Artest are no spring chickens either, while Bynum's injury history makes him a risk with this much use.

Coming off an overtime game the previous night, Jackson said before the Houston game that he would need his bench and was reluctant to criticize it afterward. He's always saved his biggest daggers for pregame and shootarounds, so perhaps we'll hear something before they meet the Grizzlies on Friday.

But really, he doesn't have to say anything. What spoke volumes was his calling timeout to get Bryant back into the game after a mere 1:46 rest at the start of the fourth quarter because the Rockets were quickly pulling away. That can work as a one-off strategy in selected spots, and perhaps Jackson saw last night as such a case with Gasol's return imminent and 14 of the next 16 games at home.

If it's a nightly event, however, it will have huge implications down the road. Bryant can keep the Lakers afloat with his superman routine on any given night, but for L.A. to remain a top contender in June, the second unit is going to have to start pulling its weight.

I think Hollinger is a giant low fiber turd that just wont flush but he got that one right.

Jeb

jeb65 wrote:I think Hollinger is a giant low fiber turd that just wont flush but he got that one right.

Jeb

jeb and sky,

I think jeb summed this up pretty well, both about Hollinger in general and about this analysis in particular. Funny how I like Hollinger when he basically parrots what I'm saying, huh? LOL.

I'll thank Hollinger for doing the math for me and calculating Kobe's mpg of regulation. It does bring his average down quite a bit, but is still 3 mpg more than his career average. NOT sustainable over a season. NOT.

Kobe has more minutes for a 31-year old than any in NBA history? Probably 15% of Kobe's minutes are playoff minutes. Is the low-fiber turd saying that Michael Jordan, with all his playoff appearances, didn't have as many minutes as Kobe at 31? It's possible, I suppose, since Kobe went from high school straight to the NBA while MJ played at UNC.

Part of Kobe's problem is also part of his gift. He's an intense competitor. He doesn't want to sit on the bench and save himself if being in the game is the difference between winning and losing (and he sure as hell knows it is, especially now).

bob

Bob-

For sure Kobe has played more minutes than MJ at 31 due to coming straight out of high school and being on playoff teams every year of his career except one. He has also been to as many Finals at 31 as MJ was in his entire career.