The Lakers' Season after Starting 1-4

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Post by cowens/oldschool Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:44 am

.....so I saw a team in a more downward funk than us, Kobe is on the worst streak of his career lately, hes actually worse than Pierce right now, lets see if either veteran can snap out of it, which one first? I'm not gonna go out of my way to knock the Lakers, look at all our problems.

Joakim Noah was a beast, took away Dwight Howard, and had his usual high energy young KG type of game, had a season high 6 blocks. Bulls found another player, Jimmy Butler, kid hustled, has alot of intangibles, was dogging Kobe the whole night. Some players get the most out of their abilities, leave it all out on the floor, and some like Jeff Green leave you always wanting more and wondering why a player with so much athleticism and a high skill set does so little? The Bulls were minus 2 starters and handled Lakers who had many many mistakes both ends, Bulls had lead the whole game then Lakers made a comeback, took lead and then at crunch time Bulls just went on a run and could not be stopped.

I thought of us during the Bulls ending, the way they finished off the Lakers. Kenny Smith and Steve Kerr both made comments about Lakers having no identity and I couldn't help thinking of us. The comments that I heard that made the most sense were when you have an identity and everyone knows their roles, when the game gets tight you just do the best of what you know, that was the difference in this game down the stretch. Here was a Bulls team minus 2 starters, executing what they know, getting the looks they needed and a Laker team with no identity, trying to make stuff up on the fly, getting swarmed and taking bad shots down the stretch.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:46 am

did I ever mention I really like Noahs game?

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Post by tjmakz Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:54 pm

Where do I start with the mess of a team called the Lakers? I believe ALL of their problems are due to Steve Blake being out of the rotation. Very Happy

I can't put my finger on one glaring problem as I could in other years, such as the pg play or the lack of contributions from Walton, Fisher or MWP.

I am going on the record that if this team continues the way they are playing, the 2012-13 Lakers will be viewed as the biggest failure of any team in any sport, in history. They have assembled one of the top rosters in the league, have easily the highest payroll, but they are playing like a lottery team.

Everyone gets the blame. From ownership to Kupchak, to the coaches, to the players. As of today I would have to say that Bernie Bickerstaff is employee of the year for guiding the Lakers to a 4-1 record in his 5 games between Mike and Mike's reigns.

Nash is way slower then he used to be. The Lakers have him guarding the other teams worst offensive player even if that player is 6'10". I did not think that Nash's defensive inabilities would cancel out his offensive abilities. It's not even 50/50. The opposing point guards are still dominating the Lakers every game, except when Kobe guards them. Now that Kobe is often guarding the opposing teams pg, I don't think it's a coincidence that his FG % is falling.

Dwight drives me crazy because he is a dumb player. I am not saying that he is a dumb man, but his on-court decisions are brutal. He often will pick up a bad foul from an elbow or a push off that wasn't needed.

Again, I don't know how to fix the Lakers.
If the season gets away from them, should they try to trade Nash for Calderon? Toronto supposedly really wants to bring Nash back "home". That will free up two years of Nash's contract.
If Dwight re-signs, great, but if he doesn't, that's fine. Dwight is no Olajuwon or Shaq. The most important thing LA could do this season is to not take on any bad contracts. Wait to see what happens with Dwight, amnesty Steve Blake, MWP or Gasol. If LA doesn't trade Gasol by the trade deadline, I think they might amnesty Gasol and get his $19.3m off of the books for salary cap purposes.

I didn't watch one second of last nights game. I figured they would lose, and I am tired of watching them. Anyway, Boston has some issues to work through but nowhere near like the Lakers issues. At least Boston will almost definitely make the playoffs and if they are hot, they have a chance.

Not much else to say about team drama and disappointment on the left coast.
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Post by steve3344 Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:12 pm

Lakers have to improve just to get to terrible. With Portland and Houston on their recent slide I've lowered my expectation of how many wins will be needed to make the West playoffs from 48 to 45. LA would need to go 28-13 in the second half to get there after a 17 win first half. Good luck.

But we have our own problems. A week ago when the C's were on that six game winning streak and without a particularly daunting next few games lined up (the toughest was a Derrick Rose-less Bulls team at home) there was talk about that streak getting to ten. Then they promptly lost their next three games (although the refs took the Bulls game away from them in my opinion), things look depressing again. However, if we hang onto to the eighth spot (thanks Philly, for sucking this year), stay healthy and are rested for the playoffs they will be a tough out against anyone in 7 game series. Even Miami.

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Post by bobheckler Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:46 pm

tjmakz wrote:Where do I start with the mess of a team called the Lakers? I believe ALL of their problems are due to Steve Blake being out of the rotation. Very Happy

I can't put my finger on one glaring problem as I could in other years, such as the pg play or the lack of contributions from Walton, Fisher or MWP.

I am going on the record that if this team continues the way they are playing, the 2012-13 Lakers will be viewed as the biggest failure of any team in any sport, in history. They have assembled one of the top rosters in the league, have easily the highest payroll, but they are playing like a lottery team.

Everyone gets the blame. From ownership to Kupchak, to the coaches, to the players. As of today I would have to say that Bernie Bickerstaff is employee of the year for guiding the Lakers to a 4-1 record in his 5 games between Mike and Mike's reigns.

Nash is way slower then he used to be. The Lakers have him guarding the other teams worst offensive player even if that player is 6'10". I did not think that Nash's defensive inabilities would cancel out his offensive abilities. It's not even 50/50. The opposing point guards are still dominating the Lakers every game, except when Kobe guards them. Now that Kobe is often guarding the opposing teams pg, I don't think it's a coincidence that his FG % is falling.

Dwight drives me crazy because he is a dumb player. I am not saying that he is a dumb man, but his on-court decisions are brutal. He often will pick up a bad foul from an elbow or a push off that wasn't needed.

Again, I don't know how to fix the Lakers.
If the season gets away from them, should they try to trade Nash for Calderon? Toronto supposedly really wants to bring Nash back "home". That will free up two years of Nash's contract.
If Dwight re-signs, great, but if he doesn't, that's fine. Dwight is no Olajuwon or Shaq. The most important thing LA could do this season is to not take on any bad contracts. Wait to see what happens with Dwight, amnesty Steve Blake, MWP or Gasol. If LA doesn't trade Gasol by the trade deadline, I think they might amnesty Gasol and get his $19.3m off of the books for salary cap purposes.

I didn't watch one second of last nights game. I figured they would lose, and I am tired of watching them. Anyway, Boston has some issues to work through but nowhere near like the Lakers issues. At least Boston will almost definitely make the playoffs and if they are hot, they have a chance.

Not much else to say about team drama and disappointment on the left coast.


TJ,

Well said and brutally honest about your team.

I often cite my friend Will, who is a die-hard Laker fan. When you guys landed Howard this past summer I told him "be careful what you ask for, you might get it". He replied that "Howard almost single-handedly won the championship for the inferior Orlando Magic a few years back" and didn't want to listen to me when I said that it was Turk who almost won it and it was Howard who blew those two fts in game 4 (5?) that gave D-Fish the chance to come down and hit that big 3 and send it into OT. One must also consider that, whatever they are getting out of Howard so far, is more than they would have gotten out of Bynum so far if they had kept him. I always remind Will to take his purple-and-gold goggles off before he gets in his car, because he can't see for shit when he has them on.

I also pointed out Nash's age and that he hasn't run fullcourt in years. To be completely honest, I also told him that Nash would make the Laker halfcourt offense 'coherent'. He is slower than snail shit in winter, but he is also the most fundamentally sound point guard in the league.

I expected Jamison to be slow, but I expected more from him than he has delivered so far.

I extolled the virtues of the Meeks signing. A bit overexuberant on my part too.

I think Kobe, at the not-so-young age of 34, has been doing it all. As you pointed out, he's usually guarding the other team's best back court player. To put a Celtic complexion on this, it would be as if he had to be Avery Bradley AND Paul Pierce.

Sportcenter showed Gasol shooting an airball, but his boxscore looked pretty damn good. It's clear he is struggling. I don't know if it's the system, if it's his head having trouble wrapping around the fact that he is not being held in as high esteem by D'Antoni as he was by Jackson and Brown, if it's his assorted physical maladies or if he is just old. I know, he's only 32, but some players' bodies start breaking down earlier than others. He played for Barcelona for 3 years before he went to the Memphis Grizzlies, so he has been playing pro ball a long time.

Jordan Hill is out for the year. If the Lakers still had Odom that would still be bad. Without Odom, they are a severely thin frontcourt.

My prediction (drumroll please) is that the front office will ask Howard to sign a contract within the next few weeks. If he signs, this team continues as is (maybe some trades that nibble around the edges but no blockbuster since the players that have the most trade value are unavailable (Kobe) or have little value due to underperformance/age/injuries/contract (Nash, Hill, Gasol). Any thought of getting a legit star, like Josh Smith, is probably not any more reasonable for the Lakers than it is for the Celtics. Neither of us have anybody who would interest Atlanta and be able to make the salaries work). If he says "I don't want to talk about this until after the season", my prediction is that Buss will trade him before the deadline. They are going to want something for him, they are not going to let him jerk them around like he did Orlando. Buss is the guy who, when Ariza started to play cute, cut him loose immediately and went after MWP. When Odom grumbled, he got shipped off to Dallas. Jim Buss holds the whip hand and has a record of making trades or signings with statements attached. If you're not estatic and eager to be a Laker, he doesn't want you around. Can't blame him for that.

If Houston, which is currently in 8th, ends up at .500 (currently 22-21), that would be 41 wins. If we assume the Lakers own the tiebreakers against Houston (the head-to-head series is 2-1 Houston, with one more meeting on the last game of the season. So, they might need to win another tiebreaker and win that game), and that no other team surges past them for the 8th spot, then the Lakers would have to have 41 wins to make the playoffs. They are currently 17-24, so they'd have to go 24-17 the rest of the season.

A little bit of health, a little bit of chemistry and a whole lot of Bryant's ganas rubbing off on his teammates and it's doable.

Not easy, but doable.

Keep the faith.


bob


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bob


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Post by tjmakz Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:17 pm

bob,

The only way I will be excited if the Lakers make the playoffs is if they don't have to play OKC in round 1. If they do, they will probably lose 4-1. I think the Lakers would have a chance against the Clippers.

I don't think the Lakers will trade Dwight at the trade deadline.
If he signed by the trade deadline, he can only sign for 3 years.
If he waits until 7/1, he could sign with another team for 4 years or the Lakers for 5 years.
Who would he be hot to sign with next summer? Dallas who has a lousy roster led by Dirk who has two bad wheels? They are not a championship contender even with Dwight. Would he want to sign with Atlanta? He has never shown any interest in Atlanta. I say let Dwight make his choice this summer. He could either re-sign with the Lakers, the Lakers could trade him in a sign and trade or he could leave $30m on the table and re-sign with another team. Time to call his bluff if it gets to that point.

The Jordan Hill injury really hurts the Lakers. He was easily the #1 offensive rebounder per minute in the league before he was hurt. The Lakers would have been able to get a 1st round pick for Hill plus another salary filler for this season, if LA just wanted future assets back. As for Josh Smith, I really don't like his game. I would not want my team to commit $60-$100m to him this summer.

As I have said before, the way the Lakers were assembled is not the problem. They had a great off-season. The players aren't getting the job done. If Wooden/Red/Phil were all co-coaching this team, I still don't think they would be above .500.
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Post by Sam Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:19 pm

TJ and BobH,

It's interesting that, for the past few years, the Lakers and Celtics have been reasonably similar—not in team makeup but in terms of their statures in the league. Only one team can win the championship, but they've both been legitimate contenders over that span—often despite severe adversity.

Now they're still similar—but unfortunately in terms of struggling to make the pieces fit together to get to the point where they'll be contenders.

Each of us has his or her pet peeves about our own teams. But the good news is that each of us also stays the course. Both the Celtics and Lakers have been surprised when new pieces haven't clicked as advertised. But I believe that smart front office moves, good coaching, patience and persistence will eventually bring out the best possible performance by playoff time.

Who knows whether the best possible performance by either team will be good enough to make the playoffs, to say nothing of contending. But I believe the real fans of both teams will never quit on their teams. If nothing else, we owe our teams strong support, if only in recognition of what they have meant to us over the years.

So hang in there, TJ, and I hope this entire board will do the same. It doesn't mean we can't gripe and analyze our butts off. But, in the end, I believe each team deserves their fans' unswerving devotion.

Sam


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Post by Outside Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:09 pm

The Lakers are such a complicated mess that it's mind-boggling. So many factors at play, and almost every one to the detriment of the team. I won't go into all of them, but I'll give my take on three of them.

Howard's still not completely back from back surgery, so he's bound to get better. But seeing Howard play more often now, I've become painfully aware of a HUGE flaw in his game -- he brings the ball down.

Every. Single. Time.

Bynum is his own mixed bag, but one thing he excels at is keeping the ball up high. Once he puts the ball up high, it doesn't come down below his shoulders, and he often keeps it really high, with his arms extended over his head. With Dwight, however, he apparently cannot jump without bringing the ball down to his waist. Which means exposing it to being stripped, which happens a lot, or getting fouled, which also happens a lot. And since he is awful at free throws, the defense is more than happy to swipe at his arms because of all the good things that happen when they do.

If Dwight would keep the ball over his head even half as well as Bynum, he'd cut his turnovers in half, reduce the number of times he's at the line, and actually put the ball in the basket. But apparently no one has taught Dwight this little skill.

Pau is now conditioned into being a seven-foot mid-range jump shooter, and he is apparently equipped with a harness that delivers an electric shock if he sets up in the post. He used to be a pretty darn good post player, but they've beat it out of him. He's so averse to it that he won't set up in the post even when Howard is on the bench. It's sad, because I used to have a deep appreciation for his skill in the post. Part of it is Mike Brown's fault, but I'm really pointing the finger at D'Antoni. He should write a book -- How To Waste An Enormous Asset, by Mike D'Antoni. Unbelievable.

Lastly, something happened to Steve Nash. He's now being harassed like the weak guard on a high school team -- "go get him, he's slow and can't dribble!" It's like a feeding frenzy. The Nash I knew would've turned that against the opponent, but this one loses the ball too often or wastes 10 seconds trying to extricate himself from the defensive pressure. It's a shame, because he's always been one of my favorite players.

I could go on, but that's enough. A month ago, I thought the Lakers would pull it together and be dangerous by the playoffs, but now I don't think so. They're still only three games out of the last playoff spot, so it's doable from that standpoint, but fixing the mess is the bigger obstacle when I touched on three points in this post and I could easily discuss a dozen more.
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:30 pm

TJ-I have always felt that Dwight was a boy among men. He suffered by playing on a team that would let him do anything he wanted and never surrounded him with enough "good veteran players" to teach him the game in his early years. This has worked to his disadvantage as he moves on because he still thinks he knows it "all". My impression is that he is not a player who takes direction well. It is sad, he has all the physical talents to make the Lakers a championship team.

As far as Nash is concerned, this move certainly has blown alot of people's minds. I think everyone felt he was the missing link to help Kobe out, with Dwight in the middle. His slow demise is rather sad to watch. Maybe he would have been better staying put in Phoenix.

As we all know, some of the "older" teams in the league are struggling, while San Antonio, who stood pat with their 3 superstars and built around them is doing well. It would be great to see the other older teams come
alive, as these superstars are the ones who have held the league together for the last few years. It is a sad way to go out, struggling and letting these young studs make them look even older than what they are.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:56 am

tj watching my team lately is like watching a Cowboy or Jet game, you just know Romo or Sanchez is about to make a boneheaded play and it happens over and over, we have almost as many problems as you guys.

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Post by bobheckler Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:27 pm

Adrian W of Yahoo Sports' absolutely brutal take on the Lakers, but especially, Mike D'Antoni. As we all know, these people write for a living and if what they are writing isn't titillating, they need to punch it up, but Adrian W has gotten so many things right over the past few years I put a little more weight on his opinion than on others.

I don't know if I would go as far as TJ and claim that if the Lakers don't make the playoffs they would be the worst team in NBA history, that's just the sound of a loyal fan in pain and if you read some of the more recent posts on this board you'll see loyal Celtic fans sounding very similar. Lord knows the Celtics are in only slightly better shape but that's because we had a better start than the Lakers and not because we are doing better now, and that's scary too. Both teams thought they could squeeze another year or two out of their aging superstars (3 with KG and JET!) and both have gone from feared contenders to life support in no time flat.

In the interest of fair and open disclosure, I should admit that one of the reasons why I'm agreeing with this column might be because much of what he is saying is what I have been saying. When someone repeats your opinion, well then of course they're geniuses, right?

I'm going to console myself with Sam's famous saying "See me in April!". That's for both teams.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--forget-kobe-dwight--the-lakers-will-pay-for-doubling-down-on-failed-reunion-tour-of-d-antoni-nash-094336411.html


..

Forget Kobe vs. Dwight, the Lakers will pay for doubling down on failed D'Antoni-Nash reunion
9 hours ago...


The nosedive continues for the Lakers, who are three games from rock bottom in the West. (EFE)


MEMPHIS, Tenn. – Beyond the personal animus and the uncertainty over Phil Jackson's willingness to endure the job's grind, the biggest issue Lakers vice president Jim Buss had with choosing Jackson over Mike D'Antoni as head coach centered on the consequences for Steve Nash. With no use for this point guard in the triangle offense, Buss's fear was that Jackson would've pushed to move Nash out, sources said.

Buss passed on the Lakers' glorious championship legacy to attach his franchise to the desert mirage of D'Antoni and Nash, a reunion tour born of a one-dimensional, gimmick offense and a point guard pushing 39 years old.

"The way this turns out," one league source connected to the hiring process said, "you've chosen not only Steve Nash over [Pau] Gasol, but maybe over Gasol and Dwight [Howard]." Mike D'Antoni's Lakers haven't won a road game since Dec. 22 vs. Golden State. (EFE)

These Lakers are missing the athleticism and perimeter quickness to contend for a championship. This 106-93 loss to the Memphis Grizzlies on Wednesday at FedEx Forum was one more installment in a debacle of a season that the mere presence of D'Antoni worsens every day.

The Lakers are a flat-lined, free-falling folly, an embarrassment of excess, a mangle of mismatched and non-connective parts. Whatever confrontational message Kobe Bryant delivered to Howard in a team meeting reported by the Los Angeles Times on Wednesday morning, make no mistake: The Bryant-Howard dynamic is the most minimal of the Lakers' issues.


Under Jackson, the Lakers would've played through Gasol, Howard and Bryant in the post, would've dictated terms through the strengths of the franchise's Hall of Fame players. Under Jackson, the Lakers would've had a leader of men to gather them out of this rubble.

Gasol could go in a trade come mid-February, and Howard – if faced with a Lakers future that includes D'Antoni – could leave the Lakers come July in free agency.

Buss doubled down on the wrong coach, and wrong player. D'Antoni and Nash are busts, unable to bring the systematic and connective threads to a lineup that they were charged to regenerate. As far back out of the playoffs as these Lakers have dropped, here's the most disturbing truth: Los Angeles is closer to the drop-dead bottom of the Western Conference with Phoenix and New Orleans – three games – than they are climbing four games to reach the eighth spot in the Western Conference playoffs.

The Lakers haven't won a game outside of Staples Center in a month. These Lakers resemble D'Antoni in every way: Mumbling, soft and shrouded in marketed mythology.

"We've got an All-Star team," D'Antoni said. "Have you ever watched an All-Star Game? It's God-awful because everybody gets the ball, they go one-on-one and then they play no defense. That's our team."

D'Antoni is far stronger with the glib quotes than he is substantive solutions.

Howard declared himself "immature" for marching around the locker room after a loss to the Chicago Bulls, and insisting that reporters and hangers-on study the stat sheet to understand his frustration. Bryant did challenge him in a team meeting on Wednesday morning, but he's done that often this season. Howard needs Bryant to play that part, because D'Antoni has forever been part-passive aggressive and fully non-confrontational.

A shoulder injury knocked Dwight Howard out of Wednesday's game in Memphis. (CBS Sports Network)Howard is 27 years old, fresh off back surgery and struggling with a torn labrum that resurfaced Wednesday against the Grizzlies. Howard appeared to be in significant pain, couldn't make a shot, nor properly pursue rebounds. The Lakers will have him examined on Thursday in Los Angeles, but one source insisted that it didn't appear to be a significant injury.


This has rapidly turned into a lost season for Howard, but it would be foolish to declare his Lakers career a lost cause. For those who've called the Lakers on Howard's availability – the Dallas Mavericks and the Atlanta Hawks – the message has been unmistakable: Howard isn't available, nor will that change before the February deadline.


Bryant won't chase Howard out of here, but multiple sources tell Yahoo! Sports that the only issue that would give Howard pause on re-signing with the Lakers would be D'Antoni. In the end, D'Antoni is a coach who fundamentally doesn't believe in post play, who sees franchise centers as intrusive cloggers of the lane.

As New York Knicks coach, D'Antoni issued a clear stance in organizational discussions on a possible pursuit of Howard: He wasn't a fan. He told Knicks front-office staff stories about how the elders of USA Basketball preferred Tyson Chandler to Howard, and that the Knicks would be wise to adopt that thinking, a source with knowledge of the conversations told Yahoo! Sports.

The best thing to ever happen to Howard's career was Stan Van Gundy coming into his life in Orlando. He pushed him, tested him and brought out the best in Howard. In Los Angeles, Bryant plays the part now. They were never destined to have a close relationship. Bryant can't tolerate the tone that Howard sets, the clowning on the floor, the grabbing of the microphone on team charter flights to do impressions, the locker room revelry.

Nevertheless, these Lakers are doomed without Howard dominating on defense. Hours before telling D'Antoni to get him out of Wednesday night's loss with a recurrence of the labrum injury that cost him three games earlier this month, Howard had left that morning team meeting apologetic and promising to redirect his frustrations on offense into a disposition of defensive dominance.

The Lakers understand that Los Angeles gives everything Howard wants to be a global star, gives him the guarantee of a five-year, $100 million extension this summer. They don't believe he'll walk, and yet as one source tied to the Lakers and Howard says: "Even if they're right, and Dwight stays, do you want Dwight unhappy and feeling uninvolved with D'Antoni?"

For the Lakers to fire D'Antoni with three years left on his new contract – just after they fired Mike Brown with three years left – would leave them buried with $25 million in coaching payouts. And then, who do you get? Forget Jackson. That can't happen now. Funny, but everyone on the Lakers knows that the best week this team played happened to be under Bernie Bickerstaff, who simplified the offense, played traditional sets and had the Lakers hustling on defense in winning four of five games in November.

Nevertheless, D'Antoni has marginalized Gasol, leaving him livid and privately expecting to be traded before the February deadline for an athletic forward who fits his coaching designs. Buss believed that Nash had been neutralized in the Princeton offense, sources say, and that he would never flourish with the changes – blessed by the organization over the summer, by the way – that Brown implemented for the season.

Two years ago, Buss chose Mike Brown over Kupchak's choice, Rick Adelman. This time, it was the desert myth of D'Antoni and Nash, a reunion that feels like it should be touring state fairs with REO Speedwagon.

In so many ways, Nash made D'Antoni, but he can't bail him out anymore. The Lakers are burying themselves, deeper and deeper, and the coach doesn't have the stomach, nor the brass, to elevate them out of the mess. His system is flawed for this franchise, and beyond that, he brings nothing to a basketball team.

Perhaps Nash can still make a difference on these Lakers, but the franchise's future never should've been thrust on hiring a coach to protect his interests. No one wants to hear this now, but it's true: Beyond Kobe Bryant's era, the future of these Lakers has to be Dwight Howard. He hasn't been himself this season and maybe needs a full summer of recovery for that back and shoulder, but the Lakers have no choice.

They need Howard to be dominant again, need him flanked with Gasol on the frontline. Only this is the wrong coach, running the wrong system to make the most of that partnership.

Somehow, the Los Angeles Lakers doubled down on the washed-up, banner-less legacy of the Phoenix Suns, and yet somehow they still wonder how everything could've unraveled this way. Mike D'Antoni was never the return of Showtime, but merely a mirage that came out of the desert and ultimately will blow out of Los Angeles like tumbleweed.




bob


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Post by tjmakz Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:01 pm

bob,

I believe the Lakers could be, not necessarily the worst team in NBA history.
I believe they could be the worst bust or underachieving team in pro sports history.

When you factor in they have 3 future hall of famers, Gasol who is a perennial all-star, MWP who is a former all-star and DPY, Jamison who is a career 17 ppg scorer and they have an athletic young rebounder who is still getting better in Jordan Hill. They have the highest payroll in the league and most felt they were championship contenders just by putting on the uniform. I can't think of a team with so much hype that has so underachieved.

Where does this end for the Lakers this season?
Trade away what they can (Gasol, Earl Clark, Morris), hope Dwight re-signs and start again next season? It will be a killer if the Lakers don't make the playoffs and Phoenix winds up getting a top 3 pick that was the Lakers pick.

They just have to keep fighting. (Just not each other).
Kobe said it is beyong embarrassing.
One thing that Adrian is way over emphasizing is Gasol's role to this team.
Adrian thinks that Mike Brown should have been kept and that LA should run the offense through Gasol. I am one that thinks that is unrealistic. Gasol is not the same player he was in 2010. He has also wilted 2 years in a row in the playoffs. Why have Nash on the team if the offense is going to run through Gasol? What Mike Brown was trying did not look like it was going to work. They weren't just losing, they were losing by double digits every game, including the pre-season.

If the Lakers did fire D'Antoni, who would be the coach? What if he doesn't work out? They are already committed to $9m to Brown and $9m to D'Antoni.

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Post by Outside Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:14 pm

The absolute worst mistake the Lakers made was not hiring Rick Adelman. Wherever he goes, Adelman gets the most out of whatever roster he's given. Unlike "system" guys like D'Antoni and Jackson, who marginalize players who don't fit nicely into their system, Adelman would be able to tailor the Lakers' offense and defense to take advantage of what these players bring to the table.

Mike Brown was out of his element offensively, so he brought in a system, but that system didn't fit the personnel, either.

Based on his experience with the Olympic team, I thought D'Antoni could adapt and make this work, but that's apparently not the case. It seems ludicrous to fire him when that means paying three head coaches (Brown, D'Antoni, and the next guy), but I'd fire him. What's the alternative -- trade or waive half the roster to get guys who fit the coach? Coaches are often the scapegoat for an underperforming team, but sometimes the coach is the problem.

The most practical solution I've heard is to make Bernie Bickerstaff the coach for the rest of the season. They're already paying him to coach, and he's the only guy who has a winning record for this team (4-1 as the interim coach between Brown and D'Antoni). The worst that could happen would be no worse than their current reality.

Look at other coaching options after the season. And this time, listen to what Kupchak says.
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Post by tjmakz Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:38 pm

Outside,

If people don't think Brown wasn't given enough time (a year plus), isn't 32 games a little quick to be calling for D'Antoni's head? What if Bernie goes 4-16 over the next 20 games, does he get fired too before the end of the season?

When is the blame going to be on the players?

I still haven't heard anyone bring up a realistic name for Lakers coach next season.
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Post by Outside Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:37 pm

TJ,

My opinion is that Brown was given enough time overall, but that yanking him after just a few games this season when management had approved using the Princeton offense was uncalled for. Once they saw the offense wasn't working, what they should've done was get together as a group, management and the coach, and either stick with it until it does work or dump it and use something different. But fire the coach at that point? That was a head-scratcher.

If Bernie is 4-16 over the next 20 games, then so be it. They'd miss the playoffs, which is no different than where they are now. My choice to fire D'Antoni is because it seems there are three alternatives:

1. Keep D'Antoni, make wholesale roster changes to fit D'Antoni, hope it works in a year or two.

2. Keep D'Antoni and the current roster.

3. Fire D'Antoni and keep the current roster.

I choose option 3 for these reasons:

• They have an extremely limited window with Kobe and Nash. Rebuilding (option 1) takes time, and it would essentially be giving up on championship aspirations for the remainder of Kobe's career. They went all-in on assembling this roster to win now while Kobe is still impactful, and it is a far more practical option to get a different coach who can get more out of this roster than get a different roster.

• The Lakers are extremely limited in their roster flexibility. Even if they decided to overhaul the roster, there's not a whole lot they can do about it.

• With option 2, there is absolutely no evidence that anything will get better. If anything, they're getting worse. Hope is being sucked out of them.

• Although the roster has limitations, there is undeniably a boatload of talent there. Any coach worth his salt should be able to get this team into the playoffs, and D'Antoni is bleeding salt faster than the girl on the Morton's salt label. One of the most overwhelming advantages this team has is two of the best seven-footers in the game, and D'Antoni isn't using either one of them effectively. It's unbelievable. There are high school coaches who could make this roster productive.

It is unfathomable to me that this roster has this record. You acknowledge that they're on track to be the biggest bust in pro sports history. There's plenty of blame to go around, and everyone -- players, coaches, management -- needs to look in the mirror. D'Antoni is not the only problem, but at this point, he's the biggest problem.

As for who coaches next season, figure that out in the off-season. There are options. Hubie Brown, Jerry Sloan, Alvin Gentry, Mike Krzyzewski, somebody who's currently an assistant and ready for the heading coaching job, like Thibodeau was with Chicago. Yes, I know three of the four names I listed are unlikely to consider the job, but you ask and maybe one will. Good lord, Dwight might consider Stan Van a savior at this point. Nate McMillan. Flip Saunders. The Butler or VCU coach. Please don't tell me that there's no options, because it seems to me that the only thing that isn't an option is the status quo.
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Post by tjmakz Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:32 pm

Outside wrote:TJ,

My opinion is that Brown was given enough time overall, but that yanking him after just a few games this season when management had approved using the Princeton offense was uncalled for. Once they saw the offense wasn't working, what they should've done was get together as a group, management and the coach, and either stick with it until it does work or dump it and use something different. But fire the coach at that point? That was a head-scratcher.

If Bernie is 4-16 over the next 20 games, then so be it. They'd miss the playoffs, which is no different than where they are now. My choice to fire D'Antoni is because it seems there are three alternatives:

1. Keep D'Antoni, make wholesale roster changes to fit D'Antoni, hope it works in a year or two.

2. Keep D'Antoni and the current roster.

3. Fire D'Antoni and keep the current roster.

I choose option 3 for these reasons:

• They have an extremely limited window with Kobe and Nash. Rebuilding (option 1) takes time, and it would essentially be giving up on championship aspirations for the remainder of Kobe's career. They went all-in on assembling this roster to win now while Kobe is still impactful, and it is a far more practical option to get a different coach who can get more out of this roster than get a different roster.

• The Lakers are extremely limited in their roster flexibility. Even if they decided to overhaul the roster, there's not a whole lot they can do about it.

• With option 2, there is absolutely no evidence that anything will get better. If anything, they're getting worse. Hope is being sucked out of them.

• Although the roster has limitations, there is undeniably a boatload of talent there. Any coach worth his salt should be able to get this team into the playoffs, and D'Antoni is bleeding salt faster than the girl on the Morton's salt label. One of the most overwhelming advantages this team has is two of the best seven-footers in the game, and D'Antoni isn't using either one of them effectively. It's unbelievable. There are high school coaches who could make this roster productive.

It is unfathomable to me that this roster has this record. You acknowledge that they're on track to be the biggest bust in pro sports history. There's plenty of blame to go around, and everyone -- players, coaches, management -- needs to look in the mirror. D'Antoni is not the only problem, but at this point, he's the biggest problem.

As for who coaches next season, figure that out in the off-season. There are options. Hubie Brown, Jerry Sloan, Alvin Gentry, Mike Krzyzewski, somebody who's currently an assistant and ready for the heading coaching job, like Thibodeau was with Chicago. Yes, I know three of the four names I listed are unlikely to consider the job, but you ask and maybe one will. Good lord, Dwight might consider Stan Van a savior at this point. Nate McMillan. Flip Saunders. The Butler or VCU coach. Please don't tell me that there's no options, because it seems to me that the only thing that isn't an option is the status quo.

Outside,

The Lakers management has stated that Brown was let go due to the defense slipping significantly, he couldn't motivate the players and he did not do a good job of making in-game adjustments.

You and I have stated how slow Nash is now. Is it D'Antoni's fault that his physical abilities have regressed so much?
What about Pau's knees and his lack of aggressiveness?
Pau played in the playoffs last year just like he is playing now.

I can easily shoot holes in all of those names you mentioned. What have these coaches done that D'Antoni hasn't accomplished?
The only one that would even be considered is Mike K and he continues to say that he has no interest in coaching in the NBA.
The Lakers talked to him before they hired Mike Brown and he said no thanks.
As an FYI, I know one of the players that graduated from Butler last year and is currently playing in the D-League and I can tell you that the Butler coach (Brad Stevens) would not be offered a job by LA.

What if they fire D'Antoni and next summer Dwight leaves, they have no 1st round pick and LA has to amnesty either Gasol or MWP?
What successful coach is going to jump at that job?
Firing D'Antoni is very unrealistic.
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Post by Outside Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:01 pm

tjmakz wrote:The Lakers management has stated that Brown was let go due to the defense slipping significantly, he couldn't motivate the players and he did not do a good job of making in-game adjustments.
I find it hard to believe that these complaints weren't apparent in the offseason but only revealed themselves this year and became so pronounced through the first five games that they were compelled to make a move. I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but either you recognize his shortcomings in the offseason and replace him then so that the new coach has training camp and the preseason to implement his system, or you stand by your decision to keep him and implement the new offense.

Maybe there was something else going on, but replacing him like they did reeks of confusion and impetuousness by management. Please excuse me if I don't accept a self-serving pronouncement from the front office about the situation.

tjmakz wrote:You and I have stated how slow Nash is now. Is it D'Antoni's fault that his physical abilities have regressed so much?
What about Pau's knees and his lack of aggressiveness?
Pau played in the playoffs last year just like he is playing now.
Yes, Nash is physically diminished. It's the saddest part of this whole saga because I wanted this to work more for him than anything. But he's the best point guard on the roster, by far, and as a coach, you find ways to maximize his talents while minimizing his deficiencies. He can still be a tremendous asset to this team. The problem is that he was a fish out of water with the Princeton offense and he's unable to utilize Dwight and Pau properly in D'Antoni's offense. Nash being older and slower is about no. 8 on the list of Laker problems.

Pau's tendinitis and plantar fasciitis were a severe hindrance early in the season and are probably still affecting him, but his biggest problem is that he's playing like a guy who knows his coach has no confidence in him and makes him play totally out of character. You cannot convince me that he and Dwight cannot coexist in the post because Pau and Bynum did an awfully good job of coexisting for the past few years and used their size advantage to win games. I recognize that Pau has been underwhelming in the playoffs the past couple of seasons, but he is still a gifted big man. His personality is best suited to not being the star, but he doesn't need to be the Lakers' best player or even second-best player. The utter stupidity of misusing him like D'Antoni is doing makes him about the sixth best player. Pau is their best offensive post player, period. Before this year, he consistently displayed a variety of post moves with either hand, a soft touch, and excellent passing skills. Now he's totally spooked out of being anywhere near the post because all D'Antoni apparently knows how to do is clear everybody else out to give Dwight room to operate (which is misusing Dwight as well as Pau). Pau is a nice mid-range shooter, but that complements his post game; in D'Antoni's world, that's all he's good for.

With all the skills Pau has, he's like a Swiss Army knife, and not only is D'Antoni not using the complete tool set in the knife, he's only using the can opener and ignoring the best feature, which is the knife.

tjmakz wrote:I can easily shoot holes in all of those names you mentioned. What have these coaches done that D'Antoni hasn't accomplished?
The only one that would even be considered is Mike K and he continues to say that he has no interest in coaching in the NBA.
The Lakers talked to him before they hired Mike Brown and he said no thanks.
As an FYI, I know one of the players that graduated from Butler last year and is currently playing in the D-League and I can tell you that the Butler coach (Brad Stevens) would not be offered a job by LA.

What if they fire D'Antoni and next summer Dwight leaves, they have no 1st round pick and LA has to amnesty either Gasol or MWP?
What successful coach is going to jump at that job?
Firing D'Antoni is very unrealistic.
If you can shoot holes in the guys I named, I can drive a truck through the hole in D'Antoni. Please give me one rational scenario that keeps D'Antoni and doesn't squander the two-year window remaining with Kobe and Nash. From my point of view, finding a coach who can make this roster work is far more plausible than reworking the roster to make D'Antoni's system work.

Name anyone who thought that the Lakers' acquisitions this year -- Howard, Nash, Jamison, Meeks, and Duhon -- made them weaker than they were last year. For most people, the question was whether they could contend for a title. Those who were wowed by the names said they were the favorite, and those who recognized their defensive weaknesses and lack of speed were realistic and said OKC was still the best in the West and that the Lakers' best chance would probably be next year. I didn't hear anyone say, this team sucks and will struggle to make the playoffs. I'm not referring just to vacuous talking heads; I'm referring to anyone you can name that you respect as a knowledgeable NBA observer.

Apparently we disagree here. You think firing D'Antoni is unrealistic, while I think keeping him is unrealistic. You can go back and look at my posts and see that I gave him the benefit of the doubt and said it would take time to work, but I've seen enough to thoroughly convince me that he is an utter failure and no. 1 on their list of issues, by far.
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Post by bobheckler Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:33 pm

Outside and TJ,

There is merit to both arguments and I don't necessarily think the two of you are disagreeing.

1. TJ says that firing D'Antoni is unrealistic. I agree. It is unrealistic because it would be a de facto admission by the Lakers front office (no names necessary) that he (er, I mean, they) have made two bad choices in a row. We're not going to see that happen soon.

2. Bringing in a brand new coach won't change a thing because the roster is the same. The talent is there, no doubt about it, but they are not playing as a team. Would a different coach play them differently? Of course, but they don't have a pre-season to implement the changes, or even the majority of a regular season, they have to win NOW. If the don't win NOW, then what's the point of change now?

3. If they bag the season (meaning they do a grand shuffle and trade a bunch of players and/or bring in a whole new coach and coaching philosophy), that would be another admission of failure and I doubt it would change the result. It's hard to suddenly create chemistry, especially when all the players already know that it is elusive. Without doing the arithmetic, I suspect the Lakers would have to play .600 ball, or close to it, the rest of the season to make the playoffs. That would leave a new coach with no runway to ramp up to speed, no honeymoon, no margin for error. Who could do that?

4. If the front office wanted Bernie Bickerstaff, they would have given him the job. So any continuity/chemistry that would come from having a current coach who knows the players and the issues is not going to be drawn upon, other than as an assistant coach.

5. The Lakers were ranked #1 going into the season, which they were not starting last season. That clearly says that the conventional wisdom thinks they improved over the off season. It doesn't matter, it's not working. However, if they are a better team, shouldn't that mean it should be better? What's holding them back? Personalities? I don't think so. It's application. That's where a new coach would make a difference. Keeping D'Antoni and assuming he'll figure it out is not, in my opinion, realistic either. He has never shown me to be that flexible, and why should he be? His style of team play is his calling card. Why would anybody hire Mike D'Antoni if they didn't want his style of team? You don't hire D'Antoni but expect him to be Doc Rivers.

6. I don't think the Buss' care about how much money they pay for coaches past and present. Money has never been an issue for them. Player salaries matter, of course, due to the new CBA. Ego/status/face/call it what you will is an issue up there in the thin air big-dollar decisions makers live in.

I'm rambling and rumbling here, but my point is that it seems to me that the Lakers are between a rock and a hard place. The status quo is unacceptable. Changing the coach, egos aside, wouldn't produce the type of swift change the Lakers need to salvage this season but it might cha nge the course of events next year and the next and with some further tweaks the window might still be open then. Changing the roster would be the same, great for positioning onself for the future, but not enough to salvage this season due to the hole they are already in.

What I do know is that the Lakers front office have to shit or get off the pot. Win today, like you built this team to do, or recognize that you don't have the horses for Mike D'Antoni to win this year (or next, or next) and start the process of giving him the horses he'll need, or accept that you can't get the horses D'Antoni needs (due to contracts like Nash's, for example) and change the system (meaning get a new coach, not to win this year but the next and the next).

That's why I think there's merit to both your arguments. They offer some positives but also have drawbacks significant enough as to make them unrealistic. There is something to be said for, and against, any plausible path out of this.


bob


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Post by Outside Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:56 pm

Bob,

You're certainly right about one thing -- there's no scenario that ties a nice, neat bow on this odoriferous mess.

About the only thing I can say with certainty about the future is that we'll know more by the trading deadline.
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Post by bobheckler Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:33 pm

Outside wrote:Bob,

You're certainly right about one thing -- there's no scenario that ties a nice, neat bow on this odoriferous mess.

About the only thing I can say with certainty about the future is that we'll know more by the trading deadline.




Outside,

So you're saying we'll know what the future will bring in the future.

Can't dispute that logic. :-)


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Post by Outside Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:38 pm

Bob,

Well, what I said was a little more nuanced than that, but I guess I did have my Captain Obvious superhero costume on.

It's Friday. Is it five o'clock yet?
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Post by steve3344 Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:36 pm

Lakers win-now strategy "destroys 2013 Draft prospects."

We all knew this but this spells it out:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lakers-win-now-strategy-destroys-2013-draft-prospects-144100156--nba.html

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Post by tjmakz Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:14 am

Before I mention anything about the Lakers I want to say that I am sorry to hear about the injury to Rondo. This could dramatically change how Danny maneuvers the roster going forward. Also, Boston fought a very tough fight against Miami yesterday.

As for the Lakers, the "new offense" (another one) has worked out quite well over the last two games. Having Kobe be the playmaker and Nash as a spot up shooter in many ways plays to their strengths. This is all about the mindset of Kobe. Some games he feels he needs to shoot and shoot to get his team back in the game. If Kobe keeps this mindset, it could be an interesting second half for the Lakers. With Nash's lack of size, speed and strength, he just can't find the cutters in the lane. Jamison, Gasol and Clark all move well without the ball and Kobe has the ability to find them. Because Kobe is so talented playing one on one, teams are at a disadvantage if they try to double team him and he can find the open player.

The Lakers defense has played much better over the last couple of games. They have given up significantly less fast break points compared to how many they had been giving up.

Gasol is starting to look more and more like he is going to buy into what is going on and he is being much more productive. Even if this just increases his trade value, this is a bonus to the Lakers.

I am one person who is quite impressed with how Earl Clark is playing. He is finally showing why he is a former lottery pick. He is 6'10", can defend multiple positions and is showing he is a capable 3 point shooter. He is a nice find with Jordan Hill going down with a hip injury.

Are the Lakers fixed? No. Are they making progress? It looks like they are.
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Post by bobheckler Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:49 am

tjmakz wrote:Before I mention anything about the Lakers I want to say that I am sorry to hear about the injury to Rondo. This could dramatically change how Danny maneuvers the roster going forward. Also, Boston fought a very tough fight against Miami yesterday.

As for the Lakers, the "new offense" (another one) has worked out quite well over the last two games. Having Kobe be the playmaker and Nash as a spot up shooter in many ways plays to their strengths. This is all about the mindset of Kobe. Some games he feels he needs to shoot and shoot to get his team back in the game. If Kobe keeps this mindset, it could be an interesting second half for the Lakers. With Nash's lack of size, speed and strength, he just can't find the cutters in the lane. Jamison, Gasol and Clark all move well without the ball and Kobe has the ability to find them. Because Kobe is so talented playing one on one, teams are at a disadvantage if they try to double team him and he can find the open player.

The Lakers defense has played much better over the last couple of games. They have given up significantly less fast break points compared to how many they had been giving up.

Gasol is starting to look more and more like he is going to buy into what is going on and he is being much more productive. Even if this just increases his trade value, this is a bonus to the Lakers.

I am one person who is quite impressed with how Earl Clark is playing. He is finally showing why he is a former lottery pick. He is 6'10", can defend multiple positions and is showing he is a capable 3 point shooter. He is a nice find with Jordan Hill going down with a hip injury.

Are the Lakers fixed? No. Are they making progress? It looks like they are.

TJ,

Great victory by the Lakers yesterday, and not against a bunch of chumps either.

A stellar 2nd half of the season, along with some help from other teams beating the teams ahead of you, and you could be back in the playoff hunt.

bob


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Post by Sam Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:31 pm

TJ,

I watched the final quarter of the Lakers-Thunder game, and I was very impressed that the Lakers didn't fold in the clutch against a younger, talented team. (On this board, we've become very familiar with that syndrome.)

I hate to say this, and I hope you won't tell anyone, but I actually found myself rooting for the Lakers down the stretch, and I was really happy that they prevailed. I have lined up tryouts for three shrinks this afternoon, but my preliminary self-diagnosis is that a form of kinship accompanies the adversarial nature of a singular rivalry.

Congratulations from someone who has honestly never doubted that the Lakers would turn it around. I realize that is not yet a firm conclusion, but you certainly have justification for elevated enthusiasm.

I wonder what odds one could get for a Celtics-Lakers final this season.

I hope no one minds, but I have changed the title of this thread, as the former title seems incredibly outdated.

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