POST GAME BROOKLYN

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by bobheckler on Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:57 pm

sam wrote:There are so many issues that each issue interacts with the other issues and exacerbate them. Right now, the game-by-game fate of the Celtics depends almost always (exception: Thunder) on the other team. Matchups, athleticism, vulnerabilities, toughness, explosiveness, shooting accuracy, etc.

In short, the immediate game-by-game fate of the Celtics is not currently within their control. They have to work constantly on their many problems until they are to call on an asset (perimeter shooting, transition game, suffocating defense, whatever) to differentiate themselves from opponents. They they need to be able to call on two assets. Then three assets. Etc. Complicating the progress is the large rotation. And the hidden danger is how much time KG will spend on the floor while all of this is taking place.

It's very tempting to say that it's a marathon, not a spring, and then to go succumb to the temptation to micro-analyze afresh after the very next game. After all, without all the analysis, this message board might very well not exist. So it's understandable and actually appreciated.

But, on my part, I feel myself withdrawing into the equivalent of a mental storm shelter into which, since 1950, I've often retreated and waited patiently for the storm to pass. That's when I learned that there's nothing as welcome as the last month in an NBA regular season.

I'm utterly sick of advising patience. So I looked into the thesaurus and plucked a new word:

Forbearance

Oh, and by the way, see me in April!

Sam


sam,

As I said, I'm not calling for Doc's head, nor am I calling for Rondo to be traded, nor am I rounding up a firing squad for Danny. On the other hand, the purpose of Post-Game Threads is to talk about THAT game and, unfortunately, THIS game was revolting. If all we do is wait until April, then this board will be a blogging desert until Spring.








bob


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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by Outside on Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:01 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Could not disagree more with your summation of the fight Outside.

-Humphries CLEARLY not only fouled KG, but pushed him again after the whistle was blown - across the neck and face. Maybe you should go watch it again. Skip up to :45 in and watch.
I've watched it multiple times, and that is a really tough angle to see where Humphries' hand lands on KG, but it looks to me more like the shoulder than anything. His hand winds up in KG's armpit. I see KG's head move, but I think that's a reaction to the shoulder blow rather than from a blow to the face. And I've seen many, many other plays I would characterize as hard fouls over this one. It was just a foul. Humphries didn't "load up" or swing down with his arm, and it involved his arm only -- there was no force added by Humphries running, like when Wade took out Collison in the playoffs, and he was completely upright and the rest of his body didn't even move, so it's not like he got additional force by putting his body into it. I'm not calling it a ticky-tack foul, but by NBA standards, it wasn't an especially hard foul. I understand that KG was in the air and that fouls on guys in the air carry additional potential for injury, but fouls like this occur in every NBA game. Until I see an angle that shows contact on KG's neck or face, I think the foul was to his shoulder only.

mrkleen09 wrote:The fact that the same blind mice who had given the Nets a 17 to 5 FT advantage missed the flagrant foul call by no means indicates it was not a hard foul - any more than OJ walking the streets means he is an innocent man.
I'm looking at this play only. I'm not adding in opinions about what the referees did the rest of the game. Even if they did a lousy job the rest of the game, that doesn't make this foul worse. This foul is what it is on its own.

mrkleen09 wrote:As for the "repeat offender" comment - not sure what the two incidents have to do with each other. A fight to defend your teammate - no matter how misguided that attempt may have been, is in no way related to bumping a ref. That would be a real "reach" by the NBA. Then again, David Stern specializes in corruption, so you never know.
I don't think any of the incidents have anything to do with one another other than the common denominator -- Rondo. It will be his third suspension in less than a year. It's not like the league keeps two suspension jars, one for incidents against referees and one for incidents against players. Are you seriously saying that a guy facing his third suspension in less than a year should expect the prior two to be disregarded when determining how many games to miss? How many suspensions does a guy have to have before you think it becomes an issue?

I don't know if it will ultimately make a difference -- I think the fact that Rondo started an incident that spilled into the stands is a more serious circumstance -- but it's not a factor in his favor. It's like Sheed and his technicals -- maybe some of them were unjustified and occurred because the refs were paying extra attention to him, but he brought that attention on himself. Rondo has put himself in the same type of situation, and he's going to have to stay clean for a long time before he's off the watch list.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by sam on Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:23 pm

Bob, I'm not knocking the post-game threads. I happen to feel they're the board's most important single feature, and the quality of comments is amazing.

When I say, "See me in April," it's quite obviously not some silly indication that I'm shutting down until then. But, even when contributing (I hope) to the forum at times like this, I keep the context of the greater journey in mind. One of the reasons why I post the cumulative season-to-date stats is to demonstrate that overall trends seldom shift suddenly. Neither does improvement in performance—at least not usually.

Amidst all the specific suggestions such as trades, rotation changes, etc., I'm seeing a lot of angst out there. We all looked forward to this season—perhaps more so than any in recent memory. We licked our chops about the advent of more speed and athleticism. We salivated at our depth that, among other things, would spell more rest for KG and Paul. We anticipated with glee the heights to which Rondo's leadership might take us.

But to a large extent, we ignored or downplayed one thing: The very number and magnitude of the resources added to the roster greatly increased the amount of time it would take for each resource to be able to contribute to the max while blending with the whole.

So my message to "See me in April" does not literally mean that you cannot see me until April. In a sense, I'm using myself as a metaphor for the Celtics and advising people (however they wish to express themselves in the meantime) that what really counts is how the whole thing turns out down the road.

I believe that if, you really think about it for a while, you'll realize that it's intended as a comforting reassurance that better times are coming— not a challenge of some kind or an announcement that I'm suspending my posting for a while.

So see me in April, and keep looking for the inevitable glimmers until then.

Sam

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by mrkleen09 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:52 pm

Outside wrote:
I've watched it multiple times, and that is a really tough angle to see where Humphries' hand lands on KG, but it looks to me more like the shoulder than anything.

Makes no difference where he hit him, the fact that he fouls KG with the body - the whistles blows - and THEN he delivers a blow to a player that is already off balance and falling. That was my point.

Outside wrote: Even if they did a lousy job the rest of the game, that doesn't make this foul worse. This foul is what it is on its own..

Everything has a context. The same foul that is called in November, is overlooked in June - and the same refs who gave NJ at 12 FT advantage in the first half, went in and looked at the stats at halftime - and TRIED TO EVEN IT UP in the second half. This happens every night in the NBA. Everyone watching the game saw NJ getting more and more chippy, with Evans pulling his BS flopping all over the court. We all saw the game starting to get out of hand, and this foul was the culmination. It was not a foul on its own....as clearly, teams dont brawl for no reason.

Outside wrote: Are you seriously saying that a guy facing his third suspension in less than a year should expect the prior two to be disregarded when determining how many games to miss? How many suspensions does a guy have to have before you think it becomes an issue?

So wait.....a foul is just a foul, and you dont care about what happened before - but a fight should be judged by everything that happened in the last year? Rondo and Humphries AND Wallace should get the same amount of games. Period

And I agree with Tommy. A guy who has my back like Rondo did - says a lot about his character and is the kind of guy I want to go to battle with. Last night was precipitated by a team full of punks who were allowed to play dirty for 19 minutes - and then to add insult to injury, allowed to throw down the Celtics best player.

Back in the Bird Days, that was the kind of dust up that happened 10 times a year...and would have found Humphries on the wrong end of a Greg Kite elbow in the face.


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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by steve3344 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:26 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/sports/basketball/as-nets-rise-celtics-division-dominance-may-be-waning.html

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by NYCelt on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:42 am

Steve,

Interesting article. This is basically the point I was making at the end of last night's Game On! thread.

While we're watching and worrying about what's wrong with the team, the fact that the Knicks and Nets could legitimately be on the upswing seems to have been overlooked.

The Nets were pushing us around last night the way we used to push others around. We've got some work to do and I think it starts with our most important player not getting himself suspended yet again. If we're no longer going to be tougher, we've got to have our collection of fairly talented players be smarter.

Regards

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by steve3344 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:58 am

NYCelt wrote:Steve,

Interesting article. This is basically the point I was making at the end of last night's Game On! thread.

While we're watching and worrying about what's wrong with the team, the fact that the Knicks and Nets could legitimately be on the upswing seems to have been overlooked.

The Nets were pushing us around last night the way we used to push others around. We've got some work to do and I think it starts with our most important player not getting himself suspended yet again. If we're no longer going to be tougher, we've got to have our collection of fairly talented players be smarter.

Regards

One telling point the article made was the line "the bench is shaky." There was one preseason article (I forget where I read it) that compared every team's bench and proclaimed Boston's reserves the best bench in the NBA, with the Clippers a close second. So what happened in one month? Our guys are seriously underperforming. Jeff Green has, for the most part, played tentative or unproductive. Maybe he's not all the way back from his heart surgery. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt for another month or two. Courtney Lee has forgotten how to make a three-pointer. He's better than Paul Pierce lifetime at just under 40% and just can't make 'em so far. Where did his stroke go? He's made five ALL YEAR, shooting under 25%. We expected solid back-up center play (at least on the defensive end and rebounding) from Darko and he's taken his (limited) talents to South Yugoslavia. Chris Wilcox needs more minutes - he's gotta play at least 20 a night and only getting about 13. He's the only legit back-up big we have. Jason Collins is a zero. Barbosa's been a breath of fresh air and is a real offensive weapon. Too bad he's not a point guard. And Bradley's at least a month away from contributing. So "the best bench in the NBA" is now a "shaky" bench. Boy is that a surprise.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by 112288 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:28 am

NY,

Regardless of the Knicks or Nets or any team on the up swing...if we cannot beat better teams....that means we are not very good.

We are 4-6 against 500+ record teams.

We have more then work......we need a legit #5....KG does not have the physical body to get pounded for 82 games......and we need more height so we can throw KG and another 7 footer on the court at the same time.

Time and record will tell........but there are too many 100+ games opponents are racking up against us.

112288

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by dboss on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:15 am

I agree with 112288.

We must get a legit big.

We are getting pushed around the court and pounded on the glass.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by gyso on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:27 am

Someone (Mike or Scal) asked Tommy if he was ever on or coached a team that added so many players during the off-season, and Tommy said,

NEVER!!

We have 9 "new" players that did not finish with the team last season and 6 of the new players are in the 10-man rotation. I expect it to be painful to watch at times. This game was one of those nights.

Who's Next!?!

gyso


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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by dboss on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:36 am

It is true that chemistry willl take more time. However that does not change the fact that we are weak in the paint.

With Darko gone we need to make a move and why not make a big splash.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by 112288 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:57 am

Gyso

2007 - 2008 BOSTON CELTIC TEAM - NEW PLAYERS ADDED - I COUNT 9
OUR RECORD - 66 - 16 - NBA CHAMPIONS!

1) KEVIN GARNETT
2) RAY ALLEN
3) JAMES POSSEY
4) PJ BROWN
5) GREG PRUITT
6) SCOT POLLARD
7) EDDIE HOUSE
Cool GLEN DAVIS
9) SAM CASSELL

SOMETHING IS MISSING IN 2012 - 2013!

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by gyso on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:44 am

112288 wrote:Gyso

2007 - 2008 BOSTON CELTIC TEAM - NEW PLAYERS ADDED - I COUNT 9
OUR RECORD - 66 - 16 - NBA CHAMPIONS!

1) KEVIN GARNETT
2) RAY ALLEN
3) JAMES POSSEY
4) PJ BROWN
5) GREG PRUITT
6) SCOT POLLARD
7) EDDIE HOUSE
8.) GLEN DAVIS
9) SAM CASSELL

112288,

Yes, but that year, we caught lightning in a bottle. A perfect storm, if you will. That team had some size and brought it almost every game (except against the Bobcats, who I think we lost to twice in one week - LOL)

Now, we have to ration the minutes of two of our most important players and we are lacking size. With Darko gone, we will need a replacement at some point. We can not add enough salary to make that much of a difference, since we are really close to the self-imposed hard cap. We can only use the vet minimum to add a player at this time, so who is out there? Usually, when aquiring a good player in a trade, a team has to add some salary. We cannot do that.

I don't see anything happening until after Jan 15th or at the trading deadline. We will have to wait until then and live with the results for now.

gyso

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by Outside on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:57 am

112288,

While you may be correct that the 2007-08 team has as many new faces as this year's team, that 2007-08 team is by far the exception to the rule when it comes to how quickly they came together into a cohesive unit. The vast majority of the time, it just doesn't work that way.

Yes, they could certainly use a center. Jason Collins and Darko were supposed to help in that area, and now Darko is gone and Collins is practically invisible. Danny and Doc are fully aware of this, and I expect them to do their best to add a center as the season goes along. Until then -- heck, even after that -- you have to give the team time to come together. The current incarnation of the Heat took time to figure it out. The Lakers are having obvious difficulties. To expect the Celtics to be great out of the gate because it happened once in 2007-08 is folly.

Did you not learn anything from Sam's previous "see me in April" pleas? Instead of looking at 2007-08 as the model, why not look at last year as the model? When despite being 15-17 at the all-star break, they took the Heat to seven games and some people here said they were bad refereeing or a healthy Avery Bradley away from being in the finals.

I'll tell you what's missing in 2012-13 -- patience. Trust. Faith. Forbearance. Whatever you want to call it.

You've talked about how you've been successful in business. Were those ventures instantly successful? Didn't you need patience to see things come to fruition?

I'm not claiming that this team will win the title, but I see no reason to doubt that they will be far more imposing than they are today and will be one of the better teams in the East when all is said and done. Brooklyn is a pretty good team, and they just gave Boston a whupping, but it was just one game early in an 82-game season. Instead of being the Celtics' personal sandbox, the Atlantic division is now the best in the East, if not the entire league. The Celtics are going to have to fight for their position in the pecking order, and basketball wrestling match excuses for fights notwithstanding, I fully expect that the C's will show some grit before all is said and done.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:41 am

Outside wrote:
I'm not claiming that this team will win the title, but I see no reason to doubt that they will be far more imposing than they are today and will be one of the better teams in the East when all is said and done. Brooklyn is a pretty good team, and they just gave Boston a whupping, but it was just one game early in an 82-game season. Instead of being the Celtics' personal sandbox, the Atlantic division is now the best in the East, if not the entire league. The Celtics are going to have to fight for their position in the pecking order, and basketball wrestling match excuses for fights notwithstanding, I fully expect that the C's will show some grit before all is said and done.

Very well said. totally agree.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by 112288 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Gyro,

That is my point, Danny built a flawed team and try to sell it on the surface as a team that can show different looks i.e. Big/Small/Run....and on the surface that we have a strong bench. The NBA, no matter what, is a physical league down low and Danny tried to be cute and land a back up to Pierce in Green which was ok....but his thinking was flawed in assuming he could pay cheap and get an above average to upper player.

This strategy by him was seen by bringing in Shack $1M and JON for about 6M
who I thought was always soft and never motivated. So now we sit and beat up on sub 500 teams and get our butt kicked with 500+ teams

Problem with Danny and his strategy is you cannot be half pregnant. You either get great players and go over the cap or just rebuild from scratch.

It may be that Danny must blows it up by building and getting some real top draft spots or young players who were chosen top 10.

I tell you what.....if either LA teams had any great young players or holds top 3-5 spots....trade KG to them.....KG lives there so he would not mind it nor the weather and we can start a quick rebuild.

The 2007 - 2008 team was built correctly and yes we got some luck in getting Possey and Brown........

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by tardust on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:52 am

dboss wrote:It is true that chemistry willl take more time. However that does not change the fact that we are weak in the paint.

With Darko gone we need to make a move and why not make a big splash.

Dboss

Dboss, I agree 100% about the paint and big guys. I was one of the ones that thought Darko would help us, just being a big that could block shots. You think the reason he left was because Doc didn't give him any time? I don't understand Doc a lot of the time. I agree with whoever it was that said Wilcox should get 20 minutes a game. I have been harping on that for a while. The bigs we have we don't play. Sure Collins is nothing great, but shutting down the layup line he could help do. Wilcox has shown me that he can help when he plays, it just he never gets enough time. I would like to see a upgrade at those positions, but would also like to see what we have and if it would work. Doc has said numerous times that the league is getting away from the big lineups, center, etc. He sures plays the rotations like he wants a small lineup. JMO

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by beat on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:23 am

I have no problem with playing "small" but the concept usually mean you run your tails off as that is your advantage............. and we don't.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by tardust on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:52 am

I sure agree with that. If you play small you sure better be in the attack mode, both offensively and defensively. And no, we sure don't.

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Re: POST GAME BROOKLYN

Post by tjmakz on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:51 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Gents. Please try not to all jump ship at once......it will throw off the balance and make the rest of us capsize. Form an orderly line and kindly walk the plank at a steady pace.

For the rest of us......clearly the Nets are playing at a different level and the Celtics did not meet their intensity on the court.

As for the fight. That was DIRECTLY attributable to the refs allowing the Nets to play dirty and get away with it...and it finally bubbled over. They gave the Nets 17 FT to 5 for the Celtics in the first half...and that clown Kane Fitzgerald gave Doc a T for nothing....which further curtailed his ability to advocate for his team. It is not surprise this thing boiled over.

Reggie Evans is a real asshole. He pushes and shoves and pulls and tugs all night, and as soon as you meet him with any kind of resistance...he flops and gets the call. He will be the first player this season suspended for a game for flopping. He is a strong man and a hustler, but the NBA needs to make an example of him.

Kris Humphries has one skill - being a punk. He should have been called for 3 or 4 fouls in the first half and should have been assessed a flagrant foul for throwing down KG. Once again the three blind mice missed it all...and then wonder why the players take matters into their own hands.

As for the rest...not much to say.

Even with all the rough play the Celtics had their chances at the start of the 4th quarter.

The sky isnt falling and it isnt time to bring up Feb Melo. Just another game along the way to learning who this team is - and a mean nothing loss in November.

NEXT.


kleen,

You made such a big deal of the Humphries/Garnett play and said that what Humphries did should have been called a flagrant.
You don't like the rules on hard fouls when it was committed by Collins but when Humphries committed a hard foul, you wanted a flagrant called?

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