POST GAME CLEVELAND

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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:59 pm

Would you feel the same way if it was Green being hit like that by Varajeo?

I don't even agree that he got "all ball". I think he got part of the ball.
That has always been a foul.

It does make a difference how the league and referees feel about it. They make and enforce the rules.

Teams are not allowed to pay the fines for players. The fines are deducted from their paychecks.
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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:03 pm

Flagrant Fouls:
These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant foul, 1 and 2. A flagrant foul 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player winds-up and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 has the components of a flagrant foul 1 and is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a wind-up motion, hard contact and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul once it is reviewed by instant replay. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s in the same game.

The League Office will consider the following factors (as well as any other relevant facts and circumstances) in determining whether to classify a foul as Flagrant "1" or Flagrant "2", to reclassify a flagrant foul, or to impose a fine and/or suspension on the player involved:

1. The severity of the contact;
2. Whether or not the player was making a
legitimate basketball play (e.g., whether a player is making a legitimate effort to block a shot; note, however, that a foul committed during a block attempt can still be considered flagrant if other criteria are present such as recklessness and hard contact to the head);


http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html
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Post by mrkleen09 Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:10 pm

And your part in bold is just stupid - and was never a part of basketball at any level in the past.

You play hard, you go for the block, sometimes someone gets hit as a result. This isnt a girls CYO game...its the NBA for god sake.

Too many bogus rules like this one take the refs attention away from the real issues like how often people take 3 steps and carry the ball on a crossover dribble. The NBA should be focusing on things that give one player an unfair advantage over another, instead of all this nitpicking.
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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:25 pm

I will agree that the rules have changed to protect the offensive players.
You might not like the NBA this way, but I am happy that the league now comes down hard on dangerous plays.

The flagrant rules are relatively new but it has always been a foul when you hit a player during his follow through, it is a foul. With the Thompson/Collins flagrant call, it wasn't even his follow through, he had the ball in his hands.

You would rather the league focus more on crossover dribbles then player safety? Hitting players in the head is nitpicking?

The rules are the rules. I don't think we should say they are stupid because we weren't 1) aware of the rule and 2) don't like the rule.

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Post by mrkleen09 Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:05 pm

If the people in the modern NBA are so much bigger, stronger, faster than the old timers....why do they need so many rules to "protect them"

Maybe they play ball different in Tampa...but in Boston when you got stuffed and the guy blocking the shot also hit you in the head....you picked your ass up off the floor, and next time - he got a pump fake and an you went under him...putting him on his ass. You dont need to try and adjudicate all the physicality out of the game. It is a supposed to be a contact sport.

As for your little "rules are the rules" - you contradict your own first sentence. If the rules change every few years, than NO the rules are NOT the rules.

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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:44 pm

The players haven't asked for the rules to change to protect them.
The owners want to protect their players as much as they can from unnecessary injuries. The league wants to protect the players (the assets) from injury. The defensive players are bigger, stronger and faster too which can result in serious injuries for reckless or careless play.

So, are we talking about the NBA or pick up games with friends in Tampa or Boston? The NBA sets the rules of conduct that all players must abide by or be penalized. In Tampa we play basketball very hard, but play very clean games. If you knock someone on their ass or hit them in the head, it is a foul and if the contact is unintentionally hard, you apologize. We are very competitive but none of us want to receive a broken nose or dislocated shoulder from some fool that is playing reckless.

You have to realize that rules change. The NBA changes rules almost every single year. I think they do make rule changes every year. Businesses change rules all the time. Schools change the rules all the time. The IRS changes rules all the time....
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Post by bobheckler Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:51 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:That is bullshit and another example of the NBA watering down the game. When you get the ball first...it is a clean play. ALWAYS has been.

Makes no difference what the clowns at the NBA feel about it. And if I was Doc, Collins get the game ball for plays like that...and the team should pay his fine.


Mrkleen,

I believe the league requires the individuals fined to pay their own penalties and do not allow the clubs to pay it for them.


bob


.
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Post by mrkleen09 Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:01 pm

Bob

And Senators are not allowed to take cash donations and Donald Trump has a head of natural hair.
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Post by sinus007 Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:04 pm

Hi,
The area of foul vs flagrant foul is so gray, murky, muddy - it's not even funny. The judgement usually depends on 3 factors: the refs, the teams and the players involved. Rarely it depends on the actual event (despite the ability to review it). Last night was a classical example.
I agree with other posters who suggested that the last night was equal opportunity screw-ups: refs decided to spread calls/no-calls evenly.
This particular game is OK for such approach, IMO. But what if it is a critical game in playoffs, equal teams, very close game? The answer is one of the teams is going to be screwed.

As for the game, win is a win. Regardless of the opponent.

Also, I disagree with suggestion that Bobh could make a lot of money on his post-game analysis. In order to sell it with any media outlet you have to be PC. I don't know him personally but judging by his posts here I'd say Bobh being PC - I don't think so.... Very Happy

AK
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Post by 112288 Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:28 pm

TJ,

I saw the repeat today and saw the replay 3X on KG.......not even close......all ball........even Mike Gorman who is not a homer said it was a clear block by KG.

On Collins..........sorry .......saw the replay again today several times......Thompson was going up as Collins had his arms up and pushed down......the rules is intent to injure.......sorry but he was blocking the ball not intending to hit the player.

This again is a rule that is in the grey area that needs better understanding by the league. Also the league gives the ref's a subjective approach when determining the call.......which can be biased at times.

Tommy and Mike said the guy making these calls have been one sided against the Celtics every time he has come into TD Garden.

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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:42 pm

112288 wrote:TJ,

I saw the repeat today and saw the replay 3X on KG.......not even close......all ball........even Mike Gorman who is not a homer said it was a clear block by KG.

On Collins..........sorry .......saw the replay again today several times......Thompson was going up as Collins had his arms up and pushed down......the rules is intent to injure.......sorry but he was blocking the ball not intending to hit the player.

This again is a rule that is in the grey area that needs better understanding by the league. Also the league gives the ref's a subjective approach when determining the call.......which can be biased at times.

Tommy and Mike said the guy making these calls have been one sided against the Celtics every time he has come into TD Garden.

112288

I saw the foul on Collins differently then you did and so did the referees even when they looked at the replays.
There is no gray area when it comes to making hard contact above the shoulders.
When a player comes down hard (especially with 2 arms like Collins did) and hits the offensive player in the head, it is a flagrant foul.
Do you think the refs were biased toward Tristan Thompson and against Jason Collins?
Collins has been a very good citizens in the league for a dozen years.
I am pretty confident that no referee has anything against him.
I am not sure how you can take seriously anything that Tommy says about the referees.
I hear him complain and either say or insinuate game after game that a specific referee has something against the Celtics.
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Post by MDCelticsFan Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:55 pm

As far as flagrant fouls are concerned, retribution is in order for giving submarines (not Subway variety) on high flying dunks to 1 Kobe for his cheap shot on Perkins two years ago in the 2010 Finals that put him out for more than 6 months. 2. D. Wade for intentionally dislocating Rondo's elbow in 2011 for falling back on him when his (Rondo's) elbow was prone & vulnerable. 3' One to LeBum James for his defication on Cleveland by defecting from Jim Brown's city by leaving before he vowed to bring a title to the City by the Lake. That would be-"And Justics for All." Credit to Al Pacino who's NEVER out of order.

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Post by 112288 Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:16 pm

First I did not say Tommy, I said Mike Gorman. Second they said it during the game. Third the view from the opposite end of the court clearly...clearly showed that Collins got all ball....and the ball hit Thompsons' head not his arms!

I coupled the clear charge that was a no call which was called a blocking foul against Collins with flagrant foul.........and the KG clear block which was called a foul that got my suspicions up that the refs either are completely blind or ...or .....calling a different game or..........if ever I was to accuse a ref of covering the point spread it sure smelled like it.

I guess we can agree that we disagree....................and we'll leave it at that 'cause this can go on endlessly.......more important things to debate about!

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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:32 pm

112288 wrote:First I did not say Tommy, I said Mike Gorman. Second they said it during the game. Third the view from the opposite end of the court clearly...clearly showed that Collins got all ball....and the ball hit Thompsons' head not his arms!

I guess we can agree that we disagree....................and we'll leave it at that 'cause this can go on endlessly.......more important things to debate about!

112288

You did say Tommy and Mike.

I can't find a video but I know from what I saw and from this picture in this story that Collins clearly didn't get "all ball".

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2012/12/jason_collins_boston_celtics.html
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 pm

I have one question, where was Wilcox last night? Did they announce at the beginning of the game that he wasn't playing?

As far as the call on Collins, I guess they have to call it, but how about giving out a flopping warning for the call on Rondo when he got up and laughed with his bench. That was disgusting. This is supposed to be what this flopping rule is supposed to stop

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Post by 112288 Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:34 pm

Tj

That is intellectually dishonest! I have seen that trick before, its old and out dated!

You show a still picture of after the fact where you should be showing the ball goes off the guys head first. Why not be honest and show the whole video to prove your point. You cannot!

I guess they do that sort of thing on the West Coast when trying to dis celebs like in National Enquirer. You may have a new career!

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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:42 pm

112288 wrote:Tj

That is intellectually dishonest! I have seen that trick before, its old and out dated!

You show a still picture of after the fact where you should be showing the ball goes off the guys head first. Why not be honest and show the whole video to prove your point. You cannot!

I guess they do that sort of thing on the West Coast when trying to dis celebs like in National Enquirer. You may have a new career!

112288

What are you talking about intellectually dishonest? You are really grasping for anything at this point.
I told you I can't find the video. If you can, feel free to post it for all of us.
I found that same picture on multiple different websites.
Below is a close up picture from NESN.
Here is what the story said about the foul:
When Collins delivered the hard foul to Thompson that ended his night, he was greeted at the bench by high-fives and fist-pounds by thankful teammates.

http://nesn.com/2012/12/jason-collins-stays-ready-contributes-in-ways-beyond-box-score-for-celtics/

It's hard to believe that some can't get past what Tommy tells them and see the facts.
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Post by 112288 Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:49 pm

So TJ

So where is the video hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I guess the California smog is clouding your vision....and your thought process!
If you cannot produce the facts........you tend to use distortion ......job well done!

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Post by tjmakz Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:02 pm

112288 wrote:So TJ

So where is the video hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I guess the California smog is clouding your vision....and your thought process!
If you cannot produce the facts........you tend to use distortion ......job well done!

112288

How many times do I need to tell you that I can't find the video?
Again, if you find it, please post it.
So, a picture of a player with his arm across the face of another player while his head is being pushed backwards is me using distortion?
Sorry to tell you that I don't live anywhere near California.

I proved my point.
I have pictures to show it and the fact that the referees called it a foul (and a flagrant) and confirmed that decision when they watched it on video many times.
You have brought no facts to the table concerning this discussion, just your opinion earlier in this thread:
This gets into a grey area of the game. If you do not exert enough downward pressure on a potential block.......the ball may go in. If you looked closely......the ball and not Collins arms hit the player.
Do you still stand by that comment?
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Post by 112288 Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:12 pm

TJ,

We have more to worry about....the world is going to end tomorrow.........so we'll debate this on the other side.............bring sun tan lotion!

As I said we agree to disagree................Happy Holidays!

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Post by tardust Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:02 am

tjmakz wrote:
112288 wrote:This gets into a grey area of the game. If you do not exert enough downward pressure on a potential block.......the ball may go in. If you looked closely......the ball and not Collins arms hit the player.

I say on review it just should have been a foul....nothing else.

The proof of what was going on with the refs last night was towards the end when they called a quick foul on KG's block when it was clear as day that Kg had all ball.

Oh and how about the blocking foul on Collins when it was clearly a charge!
Get glasses for the ref's for X'Mas!!!!!!

112288

Sorry, the rule is clear that what Collins did is a flagrant foul.

If you look at the KG foul call again slowly, you will see that he hit Thompson on the right arm.

I would agree that the blocking foul called on Collins (I think) should have been called an offensive foul.

Its funny that Dwight Howard can block a shot and knock someone into the second row and its not even called a foul let alone flagrant.
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Post by tardust Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:06 am

112288 wrote:TJ,

I saw the repeat today and saw the replay 3X on KG.......not even close......all ball........even Mike Gorman who is not a homer said it was a clear block by KG.

On Collins..........sorry .......saw the replay again today several times......Thompson was going up as Collins had his arms up and pushed down......the rules is intent to injure.......sorry but he was blocking the ball not intending to hit the player.

This again is a rule that is in the grey area that needs better understanding by the league. Also the league gives the ref's a subjective approach when determining the call.......which can be biased at times.

Tommy and Mike said the guy making these calls have been one sided against the Celtics every time he has come into TD Garden.

112288

It also depends a lot on who is actually doing the blocking. If Lebron or Dwight did he same thing I doubt there would have even been a foul called.
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Post by 112288 Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:11 am

Tardust

Agreed!

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Post by tjmakz Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:42 am

tardust wrote:
112288 wrote:TJ,

I saw the repeat today and saw the replay 3X on KG.......not even close......all ball........even Mike Gorman who is not a homer said it was a clear block by KG.

On Collins..........sorry .......saw the replay again today several times......Thompson was going up as Collins had his arms up and pushed down......the rules is intent to injure.......sorry but he was blocking the ball not intending to hit the player.

This again is a rule that is in the grey area that needs better understanding by the league. Also the league gives the ref's a subjective approach when determining the call.......which can be biased at times.

Tommy and Mike said the guy making these calls have been one sided against the Celtics every time he has come into TD Garden.

112288

It also depends a lot on who is actually doing the blocking. If Lebron or Dwight did he same thing I doubt there would have even been a foul called.

Dwight does not have a good reputation with the referees because of the amount of elbows he has used over the years.
For an interesting stat about LeBron, he has not committed 1 foul in any of his last 5 games and has been called for only 3 fouls in his last 8 games.
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Post by mrkleen09 Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:49 am

tjmakz wrote:For an interesting stat about LeBron, he has not had 1 foul called on him in his last 5 games and has been called for only 3 fouls in his last 8 games.

Fixed. Lebron commits LOTS of fouls. Whether the 3 blind mice at the direction of King Stern call them is a different story.
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