Fab Melo did it again

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by beat on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:39 am

tardust

Melo needs minutes that is the bottom line for him, he's not going to help this team this year, he had a rather pedestrian game last evening but still played his minutes. perhaps there is upside to him in the future, obviously more than Collins but Collins knows the game at this level, Melo has really only played about 40 meaningful games with significant minutes counting the 20ish games last season at SU and the DL this year. So why bring a kid up that needs minutes to learn the game? To me there is no other way to look at it.

Plus name any coach that plays their lower first round or later picks more than Doc has over the past several years?

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:47 am

Agreed he needs minutes in the D-League to further develop, but at some point if he keeps getting double-doubles or close, why not give him a shot?.....2 weeks, 4 weeks, at some point he could help us. He could do both, I like hooters idea, he can't be a worse rebounder than Steamer, he may defend close or as well.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by NYCelt on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:42 am

tardust wrote:I think what International was trying to say was something like this. We could be the 8th seed with Collins, or the 8th seed with Melo. If he got brought up and was not playing that would definitely not be good. Some time on a regular basis might be if he was only focusing on defense, rebounding, and shot blocking. I am not saying whats right or wrong here, only there are more than 1 way to look at it.

Doc chooses his way to develop players. Other teams choose other ways. Would Lillard be playing if he was on the Celtics? Probably not, he would probably be in the D league as well. Some teams like to throw guys in the fire and see how they react.

I know I am on a short list here but unless your title contending with guys then I like getting rookies playing time. Speeding up their comfort zone in the NBA. Would changing Melo for Collins make a huge difference? I doubt it, not at 15 minutes a game.

With all that said, Doc knows more than me so I will stick with their observations. I just think back to when we had people like Raef getting most of the minutes for a bad team and Jefferson pretty much playing about 15 minutes a game. I know I was probably complaining daily of why not give the Al time. Turns out, that just the way Doc does things. With all the guys we say Doc has developed, who is to say they couldn't have gotten where they got a lot earlier if they had gotten the playing time?

Is Melo ready for prime time? Definitely not but the upside is huge compared to Collins. Of course I would definitely like to have a seasoned veteran that could "take over" at times. Hopefully we can get that player. I am pretty much comparing Collins with Melo. Someone else at center changes my view considerably. I guess you could say I am not a big Collins supporter.

OK start the flogging.

Tardust,

No flogging, all opinions are valid. Well maybe a slight flogging for mentioning Raef!

There is certainly a big void when it comes to available bigs. You need to look no further for proof than that forward we just brought in whose name I can't even remember right now. The guy's name might as well be "who?" He's also got about that much potential to return to the NBA next year, yet that's who we bring in. It's almost comical, but that's what's available, so I get the theory on bringing Melo up. I'm just in the camp, especially having seen him play, that even what's-his-name we just signed is probably more ready.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by beat on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:45 am

Cow

He'll get his shot but doubt it will be this year. Realize the people he's playing against at this level are a lot less skilled than what he'll face here.

Oh he can be a far worse rebounder than steamer.

Think Bob H put it best, name another player in the D league or NBA that did not pick up a basketball before they were 15-16 years old? He's thinking what he needs to do rather than just doing it and the only way to get better is to play minutes. To throw him in up here would gain nothing and perhaps even set him back some (mentally). I am seeing improvement, vast improvement from even last season at SU. Let him continue to achieve success and perhaps later another 2 months lets review it. He's young and big, Let him learn the game and I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by international on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:48 pm

Tardust ,thanks for your interpretation of what i was trying to say.But i am not trying to say that Melo is ready to play with the celtics right now or that he is better than Jason Collins.IM the first to know that he is not a finished product yet.....But what i cant understand is that while i was talking about how the kid was improving and getting closer to help the team,many were talking about ....The poor quality of the league,the raw that he is,the bad that he looked with siracuse and many things that i have seen in the past with some fans of the Celtics and in my opinion are negative.Who does not remember people saying..Avery Bradley is wasted pick,Tony Allen does not know how to play under control,Perks is not going to help the team because his hands are like bricks and in 3 years he will be flipping burgers.And the time proved they were wrong.I wish i could express my feelings better but enlish is just my second language.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by international on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:53 pm

In baseball i am a fan of the Cincinatti Reds and i remember reds fans saying....Aroldis Chapman is too raw to be our closer,that wont works....and you know what in my opinion he was the best closer in the past season.Trust in your prospect ,that is the message here.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by bobheckler on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:25 pm

international wrote:In baseball i am a fan of the Cincinatti Reds and i remember reds fans saying....Aroldis Chapman is too raw to be our closer,that wont works....and you know what in my opinion he was the best closer in the past season.Trust in your prospect ,that is the message here.


intl,


I think the Celtics do trust in their prospect. That's why he's in Maine and not in Europe.

You're right, though, there were no shortage of people who wanted to trade Bradley for a dead dog 2 years ago.

Melo's progress, in my opinion, has been nothing short of amazing. He never touched a basketball until he was a freshman/sophomore in high school. He didn't play organized basketball until he was a senior in high school. He only played 2 years in college. When you put it in that perspective he's practically a prodigy.

He's not done cooking though. He needs to stay in the pot for a while longer.

Your points are well made and appreciated. We need patience, especially me.

Know where I can buy some? :-)


bob


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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by gyso on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:02 pm

Here is a little patience, bob:


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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by dboss on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:50 pm

Fab Melo is better than Perk was at this point but the Celtics do not have to bring him up just yet.

I do think there is a chance that he could play a bit later in nthe year. I'm rather optimistic about his potential to become a NBA quality starting center. The Kid is only 22 and has only been playing baskeball for a relatively short period of time. He has skills that just need to be developed.

While d league stats are suspect, it is nice to see his play as of late.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:28 am

beat wrote:Cow

He'll get his shot but doubt it will be this year. Realize the people he's playing against at this level are a lot less skilled than what he'll face here.

Oh he can be a far worse rebounder than steamer.

Think Bob H put it best, name another player in the D league or NBA that did not pick up a basketball before they were 15-16 years old? He's thinking what he needs to do rather than just doing it and the only way to get better is to play minutes. To throw him in up here would gain nothing and perhaps even set him back some (mentally). I am seeing improvement, vast improvement from even last season at SU. Let him continue to achieve success and perhaps later another 2 months lets review it. He's young and big, Let him learn the game and I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

beat

I hear what your saying beat, did you know KG had 4 points and 1 rebound in the first half tonight? he finished with 6 and 3....kinda shocking. I think we may need some inside help. He may not be ready now or in 2 months, and once he gets to the varsity theres another new learning curve, hes gonna go through growing pains whether hes brought up in 2 weeks or 2 months. I think I like hooters idea the best, sooner we let him get his feet wet here, sooner he might add some energy for a playoff run, we need length, hes gonna make mistakes during the process, sooner he goes through all that, sooner we'll know what we have, hopefully he can add some youthful 7 foot help.....I want to know!!!!

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by steve3344 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:50 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
beat wrote:Cow

He'll get his shot but doubt it will be this year. Realize the people he's playing against at this level are a lot less skilled than what he'll face here.

Oh he can be a far worse rebounder than steamer.

Think Bob H put it best, name another player in the D league or NBA that did not pick up a basketball before they were 15-16 years old? He's thinking what he needs to do rather than just doing it and the only way to get better is to play minutes. To throw him in up here would gain nothing and perhaps even set him back some (mentally). I am seeing improvement, vast improvement from even last season at SU. Let him continue to achieve success and perhaps later another 2 months lets review it. He's young and big, Let him learn the game and I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

beat

I hear what your saying beat, did you know KG had 4 points and 1 rebound in the first half tonight? he finished with 6 and 3....kinda shocking. I think we may need some inside help. He may not be ready now or in 2 months, and once he gets to the varsity theres another new learning curve, hes gonna go through growing pains whether hes brought up in 2 weeks or 2 months. I think I like hooters idea the best, sooner we let him get his feet wet here, sooner he might add some energy for a playoff run, we need length, hes gonna make mistakes during the process, sooner he goes through all that, sooner we'll know what we have, hopefully he can add some youthful 7 foot help.....I want to know!!!!

KG averaging 5.4 rebounds a game in his last ten games. Before that, he was averaging 7.6. And with Chris Wilcox out for a month with a sprained thumb, it's an even bigger problem.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:34 am

The kid Melo is a legit 7 footer, he anchored the #1 college basketball teams defense last year and as clumsy as he may be, when he left/got suspended that team had no shot. The kid last night at Golden State threw up some bricks, but did a beautiful job post D'ing KG and clog the middle, thats all we would need Melo to do here. Hes as mobile as Ezelli and may leap better.....overall we have enough scoring, we need a Perk like presence on defense and Melo already moves/runs better, we can all pick on his shortcomings for days and days, I'm not asking for the second coming of Tim Duncan.....again hes 7 feet, seems to have a knack for blocking shots when the ball comes near him. Please for the life of god and this team to go forward and int, posting all the way from the Philipines, give this kid a shot to be a defensive force and dunk off a few Rondo feeds before the seasons totally lost.

Our bigger problem is KG's overall game, is he turning into the 83 version of Tiny Archibald and is Pierce turning into Vince Carter.....don't get me started on Jeff Green. Theres plenty to go around we can pick on besides Melo.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:50 am

steve3344 wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
beat wrote:Cow

He'll get his shot but doubt it will be this year. Realize the people he's playing against at this level are a lot less skilled than what he'll face here.

Oh he can be a far worse rebounder than steamer.

Think Bob H put it best, name another player in the D league or NBA that did not pick up a basketball before they were 15-16 years old? He's thinking what he needs to do rather than just doing it and the only way to get better is to play minutes. To throw him in up here would gain nothing and perhaps even set him back some (mentally). I am seeing improvement, vast improvement from even last season at SU. Let him continue to achieve success and perhaps later another 2 months lets review it. He's young and big, Let him learn the game and I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

beat

I hear what your saying beat, did you know KG had 4 points and 1 rebound in the first half tonight? he finished with 6 and 3....kinda shocking. I think we may need some inside help. He may not be ready now or in 2 months, and once he gets to the varsity theres another new learning curve, hes gonna go through growing pains whether hes brought up in 2 weeks or 2 months. I think I like hooters idea the best, sooner we let him get his feet wet here, sooner he might add some energy for a playoff run, we need length, hes gonna make mistakes during the process, sooner he goes through all that, sooner we'll know what we have, hopefully he can add some youthful 7 foot help.....I want to know!!!!

KG averaging 5.4 rebounds a game in his last ten games. Before that, he was averaging 7.6. And with Chris Wilcox out for a month with a sprained thumb, it's an even bigger problem.


Steve I'm not a stat guy, but it seems young guns, up and coming players are really going right at KG, possibly to test their mettle, or coaches are just telling them to go hard at him and wear him out, cause KG will still hit a few shots, but sadly his rebounding is very Kareem like once he turned 36 or 38, the defense is better with him on the floor, but teams are certainly not afraid to mix it up inside and go right at him.....I hate Father Time, my kid says to me whats the matter with Garnett as were getting abused inside and I tell them KG is a former MVP and led the league in rebounding 4 years in a row, well hes trying, but no where near that version.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by worcester on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:23 am

Fernando Rodney of the Rays was by far the best closer in MLB last year.

As for NBA players who first picked up a basketball late in life, two come to mind:
1. Tim Duncan, who started off as a superb swimmer, and
2. Vanessa William's ex, Rick Fox who was in his late teens before he started to play.

Both turned out pretty well.

Fab will be fab in time, but he does need the luxury of time on the court. Maybe in April he could get some minutes with us...however that old concern of Sam's comes to mind - CONTINUITY!

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by international on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:09 pm

Just to clarify some things....I am not from the Philipines, i am from Puerto Rico a commonwealth island , i am a Usa citizen and i dont need passport to enter USA.The nickname of international came because in my country the athletes that represent our country are name internacionales(internationals in spanish) and me being an ex basketball player with my country ,some people called me ..el international.J J Barea is from PR ,Carlos Arroyo,Shabass Napier Velasquez and Mo Harkless are puerto rican descendants and we have 3 Hall of Famers in MLB...Roberto Clemente,Orlando Cepeda and Roberto Alomar.Another basketball player from my country that played with the Celtics was Ramon Rivas.Basketball is our favorite sport here in my island and we also have many famous artists like Benicio Del Toro,Raul Julia,Rita Moreno,Jenifer Lopez and many more.By the way Ramon Sessions is not from my country.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:03 pm

I find myself addressing a lot of comments to no one in particular lately, probably because there are so many concerned Celtics fans—for good reason. This is another one of those times.

Comparing the Fab Melo situation with that of Avery Bradley is akin to comparing apples and oranges because the contexts are/were different. A couple of years ago, the Celtics were hell bent on trying to make a backup point guard out of Bradley. In essence, they were saying that, although his defensive potential was recognizable, it wasn't enough unless he could also become a floor general (which he couldn't).

Avery's defensive potential addressed what was considered pretty much a non-problem at the time, because the Celtics were already a very effective defensive team (even with Ray instead of Avery in the lineup). Many (including myself) who would have been willing to trade Avery were hoping such a trade could help to bring the team a true floor general backup because the team (especially the bench) was floundering without one. In fact, it still is.

The context for being willing to trade Avery was not some blanket dislike of Avery. It involved the very logical feeling that the team's offensive droughts were far more prevalent than their defensive lapses, and Avery's strengths were not a good match for the Celtics' greatest need.

Ray's injury virtually forced the Celtics to play Avery at SG, where his defensive abilities weren't required to reinvent the defense. All he had to do was to enhance their already excellent defensive tendencies, and he found just the intense pressure niche within which to do so. He not only forced turnovers but also relieved Rondo of some of that burden.

The fact that he fit in naturally with an already good Celtics defense, and even added a dimension to it, freed Avery to work on his offense. His signature baseline cuts (and even his occasional three-pointers) helped to feel the void left by Ray's departure, although the team didn't space the floor as well without Ray.

The key is that Avery's strength simply added to an existing Celtics strength (defense). Right now, the Celtics don't have an existing offensive OR defensive identity. In other words, they don't have a convenient womb within which to welcome Melo. If he were to join the Celtics now, and even if he (improbably) received significant playing time, he would be struggling even as the team around him struggles at both ends of the floor. The rest of the team has enough to worry about without having to help nurture the inexperienced Melo.

I believe that those who clamor for the elevation of Melo to the Celtics could be looking at it backwards by focusing on the player's potential rather than on the readiness of the team to nurture a struggling young player at this time.

Sam

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by bobheckler on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:04 pm

international wrote:Just to clarify some things....I am not from the Philipines, i am from Puerto Rico a commonwealth island , i am a Usa citizen and i dont need passport to enter USA.The nickname of international came because in my country the athletes that represent our country are name internacionales(internationals in spanish) and me being an ex basketball player with my country ,some people called me ..el international.J J Barea is from PR ,Carlos Arroyo,Shabass Napier Velasquez and Mo Harkless are puerto rican descendants and we have 3 Hall of Famers in MLB...Roberto Clemente,Orlando Cepeda and Roberto Alomar.Another basketball player from my country that played with the Celtics was Ramon Rivas.Basketball is our favorite sport here in my island and we also have many famous artists like Benicio Del Toro,Raul Julia,Rita Moreno,Jenifer Lopez and many more.By the way Ramon Sessions is not from my country.


international,

Thanks for the clarification on Sessions. You're right, of course, he was born in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and not PR. I don't know why I thought he was Puerto Rican.

I saw Clemente play the Mets a few times. What a remarkable ball player and helluva human being.

We have a board member from the Philippines, perhaps that's where the confusion came from.


bob


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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:08 pm

sam

Whether you bring up Fab in 2 weeks, 2 months or sometime next year, hes still going to go through growing pains, dumb fouls, airball here and there. We have many weaknesses and inconsistancies already without him, we have a glaring size problem, we know what we have with Collins and KG and Sully with Bass, many feel we need more. I see no reason other than inevitable growing pains that will be there at some point whenever Fab may get here why we shouldn't put this kid in for 8-10 minutes a game in a few weeks or a month to get him to build to get to the necessary level, to work on that so that he can help us. Sooner the better in my book. Maybe not now or this week, but 2-3 weeks would be ideal for me.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:57 pm

Cow,

So you support my view that Fab will be experiencing "inevitable growing pains." Why inflict him on a team that could potentially become a contender but will have to experience its own growing pains in the process?

Right now, Fab's building some impressive block figures about which so many are going ga ga. But he's doing so because his many, many flaws are matched by the flaws of those against whom he's competing. And he has the advantage of height and a certain amount of athleticism. But height and athleticism are everywhere in the NBA, and he won't have those advantages in the big show.

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing the old "8-10 minutes" line that people throw around as though an occasional 8-10 minutes of time were going to eliminate Fab's growing pains without further messing up whatever chemistry the Celtics are earnestly attempting to gain? Apparently, some people would rather see an experiment even though it might negatively affect the team chemistry and might even set back the progress of Fab (because he'd be developing habits born largely of garbage time). It's certainly people's right to think that way, but I'm definitely not one of them.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by hawksnestbeach on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:03 pm

To this great board: When the Celtics are playing great, it's easy to agree with management, sit back and cheer. When they stink up the joint, it's natural to question why. I don't think that questioning, or lobbying for changes, is the mark of a fair-weather fan.
After playing and watching for decades, I can't help but think "what would I do differently" when our strategy doesn't pan out.
So with that preface, I think it's time to reboot:
By keeping PP and KG, we're in win-now mode, "win-now" meaning we want to make the playoffs and win in April and May. It doesn't matter at all if we lose any particular game in Jan. and Feb. as long as we make the playoffs, and it doesn't really matter if we make the playoffs and are trounced in the first round.
So how do we get better by April?
We have to save KG, PP and RR from grueling minutes. They should play enough to stay sharp and that's all.
We have to bring along the new guys - Green, Sully, Lee, Joseph and yes, Melo, by giving them lots of minutes and meaningful roles.
I've advocated starting Green (hoping it would cure his funk), and I wouldn't mind starting any of the others for a stretch because I don't think they'll produce unless they are called on to shine, left in when they make mistakes, and learn to succeed, like Lee last night.
Let's find out what we have:
Sully's a good example. One might argue he's been given the minutes because he deserves them. But part of his success may be that he was given the minutes before he deserved them and has repaid that confidence shown in him with increasingly better production.
As this is the Melo thread, at the risk of repetition, I hope he dons green soon. I don't disagree with those who say he'd be better off in Maine, but my Main concern is this Celtics' season.
On a legit contender, Collins would be nice insurance, but he's not going to take us anywhere. At this point, I think Melo runs, blocks, scores and rebounds better. Of course, Collins is headier because he's played in so many more games. But that's exactly why I'd rather play Melo, now. (And I realize that if Doc doesn't play him, there's no sense in calling him up, so what I'm saying is that DA and Doc should commit to playing him significant minutes with the big boys now.)
Of course, if we're about to land another center, fine. But looking at our roster and the market, I don't see a better option.
Melo may be a prodigy. He's only halfway there, but who else, after five years of ball, is drafted in the first round?
As a freshman at SU, as Beat has noted, he looked lost and played few minutes. As a sophomore, he was easily twice as good - Big East DPLY. He might be twice as good as that right now.
And chemistry: Sam, I agree it's bad to disrupt good chemistry, but I haven't seen much. Last season, we developed chemistry only when Ray went down and Bradley began to start, so by breaking up the Three Amigos and improving speed on the perimeter, we developed better chemistry.
I think if Melo were throwing his 273 pounds around the paint for a couple of weeks, catching a few Rondo passes, we might also improve chemistry.
In any case, Happy New Year to all and Go Celtics! Hawk - 90 minutes southeast of Syracuse.


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