Fab Melo did it again

cowens/oldschool wrote:

beat wrote:Cow

He'll get his shot but doubt it will be this year. Realize the people he's playing against at this level are a lot less skilled than what he'll face here.

Oh he can be a far worse rebounder than steamer.

Think Bob H put it best, name another player in the D league or NBA that did not pick up a basketball before they were 15-16 years old? He's thinking what he needs to do rather than just doing it and the only way to get better is to play minutes. To throw him in up here would gain nothing and perhaps even set him back some (mentally). I am seeing improvement, vast improvement from even last season at SU. Let him continue to achieve success and perhaps later another 2 months lets review it. He's young and big, Let him learn the game and I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

beat

I hear what your saying beat, did you know KG had 4 points and 1 rebound in the first half tonight? he finished with 6 and 3....kinda shocking. I think we may need some inside help. He may not be ready now or in 2 months, and once he gets to the varsity theres another new learning curve, hes gonna go through growing pains whether hes brought up in 2 weeks or 2 months. I think I like hooters idea the best, sooner we let him get his feet wet here, sooner he might add some energy for a playoff run, we need length, hes gonna make mistakes during the process, sooner he goes through all that, sooner we'll know what we have, hopefully he can add some youthful 7 foot help.....I want to know!!!!

KG averaging 5.4 rebounds a game in his last ten games. Before that, he was averaging 7.6. And with Chris Wilcox out for a month with a sprained thumb, it's an even bigger problem.

The kid Melo is a legit 7 footer, he anchored the #1 college basketball teams defense last year and as clumsy as he may be, when he left/got suspended that team had no shot. The kid last night at Golden State threw up some bricks, but did a beautiful job post D'ing KG and clog the middle, thats all we would need Melo to do here. Hes as mobile as Ezelli and may leap better.....overall we have enough scoring, we need a Perk like presence on defense and Melo already moves/runs better, we can all pick on his shortcomings for days and days, I'm not asking for the second coming of Tim Duncan.....again hes 7 feet, seems to have a knack for blocking shots when the ball comes near him. Please for the life of god and this team to go forward and int, posting all the way from the Philipines, give this kid a shot to be a defensive force and dunk off a few Rondo feeds before the seasons totally lost.

Our bigger problem is KG's overall game, is he turning into the 83 version of Tiny Archibald and is Pierce turning into Vince Carter.....don't get me started on Jeff Green. Theres plenty to go around we can pick on besides Melo.

steve3344 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

beat wrote:Cow

He'll get his shot but doubt it will be this year. Realize the people he's playing against at this level are a lot less skilled than what he'll face here.

Oh he can be a far worse rebounder than steamer.

Think Bob H put it best, name another player in the D league or NBA that did not pick up a basketball before they were 15-16 years old? He's thinking what he needs to do rather than just doing it and the only way to get better is to play minutes. To throw him in up here would gain nothing and perhaps even set him back some (mentally). I am seeing improvement, vast improvement from even last season at SU. Let him continue to achieve success and perhaps later another 2 months lets review it. He's young and big, Let him learn the game and I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

beat

I hear what your saying beat, did you know KG had 4 points and 1 rebound in the first half tonight? he finished with 6 and 3....kinda shocking. I think we may need some inside help. He may not be ready now or in 2 months, and once he gets to the varsity theres another new learning curve, hes gonna go through growing pains whether hes brought up in 2 weeks or 2 months. I think I like hooters idea the best, sooner we let him get his feet wet here, sooner he might add some energy for a playoff run, we need length, hes gonna make mistakes during the process, sooner he goes through all that, sooner we'll know what we have, hopefully he can add some youthful 7 foot help.....I want to know!!!!

KG averaging 5.4 rebounds a game in his last ten games. Before that, he was averaging 7.6. And with Chris Wilcox out for a month with a sprained thumb, it's an even bigger problem.

Steve I'm not a stat guy, but it seems young guns, up and coming players are really going right at KG, possibly to test their mettle, or coaches are just telling them to go hard at him and wear him out, cause KG will still hit a few shots, but sadly his rebounding is very Kareem like once he turned 36 or 38, the defense is better with him on the floor, but teams are certainly not afraid to mix it up inside and go right at him.....I hate Father Time, my kid says to me whats the matter with Garnett as were getting abused inside and I tell them KG is a former MVP and led the league in rebounding 4 years in a row, well hes trying, but no where near that version.

Fernando Rodney of the Rays was by far the best closer in MLB last year.

As for NBA players who first picked up a basketball late in life, two come to mind:
1. Tim Duncan, who started off as a superb swimmer, and
2. Vanessa William's ex, Rick Fox who was in his late teens before he started to play.

Both turned out pretty well.

Fab will be fab in time, but he does need the luxury of time on the court. Maybe in April he could get some minutes with us...however that old concern of Sam's comes to mind - CONTINUITY!

Just to clarify some things....I am not from the Philipines, i am from Puerto Rico a commonwealth island , i am a Usa citizen and i dont need passport to enter USA.The nickname of international came because in my country the athletes that represent our country are name internacionales(internationals in spanish) and me being an ex basketball player with my country ,some people called me ..el international.J J Barea is from PR ,Carlos Arroyo,Shabass Napier Velasquez and Mo Harkless are puerto rican descendants and we have 3 Hall of Famers in MLB...Roberto Clemente,Orlando Cepeda and Roberto Alomar.Another basketball player from my country that played with the Celtics was Ramon Rivas.Basketball is our favorite sport here in my island and we also have many famous artists like Benicio Del Toro,Raul Julia,Rita Moreno,Jenifer Lopez and many more.By the way Ramon Sessions is not from my country.

I find myself addressing a lot of comments to no one in particular lately, probably because there are so many concerned Celtics fans—for good reason. This is another one of those times.

Comparing the Fab Melo situation with that of Avery Bradley is akin to comparing apples and oranges because the contexts are/were different. A couple of years ago, the Celtics were hell bent on trying to make a backup point guard out of Bradley. In essence, they were saying that, although his defensive potential was recognizable, it wasn't enough unless he could also become a floor general (which he couldn't).

Avery's defensive potential addressed what was considered pretty much a non-problem at the time, because the Celtics were already a very effective defensive team (even with Ray instead of Avery in the lineup). Many (including myself) who would have been willing to trade Avery were hoping such a trade could help to bring the team a true floor general backup because the team (especially the bench) was floundering without one. In fact, it still is.

The context for being willing to trade Avery was not some blanket dislike of Avery. It involved the very logical feeling that the team's offensive droughts were far more prevalent than their defensive lapses, and Avery's strengths were not a good match for the Celtics' greatest need.

Ray's injury virtually forced the Celtics to play Avery at SG, where his defensive abilities weren't required to reinvent the defense. All he had to do was to enhance their already excellent defensive tendencies, and he found just the intense pressure niche within which to do so. He not only forced turnovers but also relieved Rondo of some of that burden.

The fact that he fit in naturally with an already good Celtics defense, and even added a dimension to it, freed Avery to work on his offense. His signature baseline cuts (and even his occasional three-pointers) helped to feel the void left by Ray's departure, although the team didn't space the floor as well without Ray.

The key is that Avery's strength simply added to an existing Celtics strength (defense). Right now, the Celtics don't have an existing offensive OR defensive identity. In other words, they don't have a convenient womb within which to welcome Melo. If he were to join the Celtics now, and even if he (improbably) received significant playing time, he would be struggling even as the team around him struggles at both ends of the floor. The rest of the team has enough to worry about without having to help nurture the inexperienced Melo.

I believe that those who clamor for the elevation of Melo to the Celtics could be looking at it backwards by focusing on the player's potential rather than on the readiness of the team to nurture a struggling young player at this time.

Sam

sam

Whether you bring up Fab in 2 weeks, 2 months or sometime next year, hes still going to go through growing pains, dumb fouls, airball here and there. We have many weaknesses and inconsistancies already without him, we have a glaring size problem, we know what we have with Collins and KG and Sully with Bass, many feel we need more. I see no reason other than inevitable growing pains that will be there at some point whenever Fab may get here why we shouldn't put this kid in for 8-10 minutes a game in a few weeks or a month to get him to build to get to the necessary level, to work on that so that he can help us. Sooner the better in my book. Maybe not now or this week, but 2-3 weeks would be ideal for me.

cow

Cow,

So you support my view that Fab will be experiencing "inevitable growing pains." Why inflict him on a team that could potentially become a contender but will have to experience its own growing pains in the process?

Right now, Fab's building some impressive block figures about which so many are going ga ga. But he's doing so because his many, many flaws are matched by the flaws of those against whom he's competing. And he has the advantage of height and a certain amount of athleticism. But height and athleticism are everywhere in the NBA, and he won't have those advantages in the big show.

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing the old "8-10 minutes" line that people throw around as though an occasional 8-10 minutes of time were going to eliminate Fab's growing pains without further messing up whatever chemistry the Celtics are earnestly attempting to gain? Apparently, some people would rather see an experiment even though it might negatively affect the team chemistry and might even set back the progress of Fab (because he'd be developing habits born largely of garbage time). It's certainly people's right to think that way, but I'm definitely not one of them.

Sam

To this great board: When the Celtics are playing great, it's easy to agree with management, sit back and cheer. When they stink up the joint, it's natural to question why. I don't think that questioning, or lobbying for changes, is the mark of a fair-weather fan.
After playing and watching for decades, I can't help but think "what would I do differently" when our strategy doesn't pan out.
So with that preface, I think it's time to reboot:
By keeping PP and KG, we're in win-now mode, "win-now" meaning we want to make the playoffs and win in April and May. It doesn't matter at all if we lose any particular game in Jan. and Feb. as long as we make the playoffs, and it doesn't really matter if we make the playoffs and are trounced in the first round.
So how do we get better by April?
We have to save KG, PP and RR from grueling minutes. They should play enough to stay sharp and that's all.
We have to bring along the new guys - Green, Sully, Lee, Joseph and yes, Melo, by giving them lots of minutes and meaningful roles.
I've advocated starting Green (hoping it would cure his funk), and I wouldn't mind starting any of the others for a stretch because I don't think they'll produce unless they are called on to shine, left in when they make mistakes, and learn to succeed, like Lee last night.
Let's find out what we have:
Sully's a good example. One might argue he's been given the minutes because he deserves them. But part of his success may be that he was given the minutes before he deserved them and has repaid that confidence shown in him with increasingly better production.
As this is the Melo thread, at the risk of repetition, I hope he dons green soon. I don't disagree with those who say he'd be better off in Maine, but my Main concern is this Celtics' season.
On a legit contender, Collins would be nice insurance, but he's not going to take us anywhere. At this point, I think Melo runs, blocks, scores and rebounds better. Of course, Collins is headier because he's played in so many more games. But that's exactly why I'd rather play Melo, now. (And I realize that if Doc doesn't play him, there's no sense in calling him up, so what I'm saying is that DA and Doc should commit to playing him significant minutes with the big boys now.)
Of course, if we're about to land another center, fine. But looking at our roster and the market, I don't see a better option.
Melo may be a prodigy. He's only halfway there, but who else, after five years of ball, is drafted in the first round?
As a freshman at SU, as Beat has noted, he looked lost and played few minutes. As a sophomore, he was easily twice as good - Big East DPLY. He might be twice as good as that right now.
And chemistry: Sam, I agree it's bad to disrupt good chemistry, but I haven't seen much. Last season, we developed chemistry only when Ray went down and Bradley began to start, so by breaking up the Three Amigos and improving speed on the perimeter, we developed better chemistry.
I think if Melo were throwing his 273 pounds around the paint for a couple of weeks, catching a few Rondo passes, we might also improve chemistry.
In any case, Happy New Year to all and Go Celtics! Hawk - 90 minutes southeast of Syracuse.

Hawk,

Interesting thoughts.

Regards

hawk

Nice post, agree with all your points on Melo.

sam

The teams chemistry or continuity seems to be not working if you equate winning with the continuity. If your just looking at glimmers, yeah you could say Sully is improving, Jeff Green is getting it, as is Lee, but the team is still not winning despite that. Our interior defense is not there this season up to now, KG tries, but some defensive chemistry is way off as stats can show and I'm not a stat guy. In other words the continuity this year is off in enough phases that its not so sacred that you can't disrupt it by adding a talented enough piece that will go through growing pains, but in the long run is worth the shake up to see what dimensions he can bring/add to a team in need of better chemistry/continuity because right now the teams functions/aspirations of winning are not happening.....in laymans words our interior defense needs a bigger better body, you could gain more taking that risk, than leave it as is, again because right now we are weak protecting the rim and need help. KG is also not gonna be here forever, if I'm a GM I want Melo further learning on the floor and practice as much as he can from the Master....sooner you start the process the better IMHO.

cow

I just saw the boxscore of tonites game, did anyone see Jason Collins line? He had 0 points, 1 rebound and no blocked shots in 17 minutes. I know he does things that don't show up in the boxscore, but it seems this team needs Melo or some bigman help desperately.....could Melo even learning on the fly on the varsity be this impotent? he couldn't be worse.

hawksnestbeach wrote:To this great board: When the Celtics are playing great, it's easy to agree with management, sit back and cheer. When they stink up the joint, it's natural to question why. I don't think that questioning, or lobbying for changes, is the mark of a fair-weather fan.
After playing and watching for decades, I can't help but think "what would I do differently" when our strategy doesn't pan out.
So with that preface, I think it's time to reboot:
By keeping PP and KG, we're in win-now mode, "win-now" meaning we want to make the playoffs and win in April and May. It doesn't matter at all if we lose any particular game in Jan. and Feb. as long as we make the playoffs, and it doesn't really matter if we make the playoffs and are trounced in the first round.
So how do we get better by April?
We have to save KG, PP and RR from grueling minutes. They should play enough to stay sharp and that's all.
We have to bring along the new guys - Green, Sully, Lee, Joseph and yes, Melo, by giving them lots of minutes and meaningful roles.
I've advocated starting Green (hoping it would cure his funk), and I wouldn't mind starting any of the others for a stretch because I don't think they'll produce unless they are called on to shine, left in when they make mistakes, and learn to succeed, like Lee last night.
Let's find out what we have:
Sully's a good example. One might argue he's been given the minutes because he deserves them. But part of his success may be that he was given the minutes before he deserved them and has repaid that confidence shown in him with increasingly better production.
As this is the Melo thread, at the risk of repetition, I hope he dons green soon. I don't disagree with those who say he'd be better off in Maine, but my Main concern is this Celtics' season.
On a legit contender, Collins would be nice insurance, but he's not going to take us anywhere. At this point, I think Melo runs, blocks, scores and rebounds better. Of course, Collins is headier because he's played in so many more games. But that's exactly why I'd rather play Melo, now. (And I realize that if Doc doesn't play him, there's no sense in calling him up, so what I'm saying is that DA and Doc should commit to playing him significant minutes with the big boys now.)
Of course, if we're about to land another center, fine. But looking at our roster and the market, I don't see a better option.
Melo may be a prodigy. He's only halfway there, but who else, after five years of ball, is drafted in the first round?
As a freshman at SU, as Beat has noted, he looked lost and played few minutes. As a sophomore, he was easily twice as good - Big East DPLY. He might be twice as good as that right now.
And chemistry: Sam, I agree it's bad to disrupt good chemistry, but I haven't seen much. Last season, we developed chemistry only when Ray went down and Bradley began to start, so by breaking up the Three Amigos and improving speed on the perimeter, we developed better chemistry.
I think if Melo were throwing his 273 pounds around the paint for a couple of weeks, catching a few Rondo passes, we might also improve chemistry.
In any case, Happy New Year to all and Go Celtics! Hawk - 90 minutes southeast of Syracuse.

Hawk you pretty much put it out there like I am thinking. I also don't want Melo to just get garbage minutes. Our chemistry to this point probably is the worst I have seen it. (well maybe last year at the same game total) I just have a hard time thinking we are going to change into this other team as is. Continue to do the same things with the same people and most of the time you will get the same results. Melo if could rebound and block shots, i would say mission accomplished. I feel like were wasting valuable time playing Collins. I was pretty much on the get rid of Bradley bandwagon. The only reason I wasn't as vocal was I didn't see much we could get with him. The one thing you knew from day one was he could play defense. Same with Melo except its blocking shots number one, and hopefully getting rebounds. Look at the Warriors. As good as their record is, they have a similar type player I suppose he is starting. Is Festus that much better than Melo? Anyway opinions are like _____ everyone has one.

cowens/oldschool wrote:I just saw the boxscore of tonites game, did anyone see Jason Collins line? He had 0 points, 1 rebound and no blocked shots in 17 minutes. I know he does things that don't show up in the boxscore, but it seems this team needs Melo or some bigman help desperately.....could Melo even learning on the fly on the varsity be this impotent? he couldn't be worse.

I had reviewed Collins stats before last night. Its pretty consistant. He gets one or two rebounds a game, scores one or two pts a game, fouls from 2-5 times a game. Get a block every other game. I realize he is a veteran and doesn't make as many mistakes as Melo would but I just don't see anything else he brings. If not Melo I would just as soon see Sully eat up those minutes. I don't see the results being any worse. Here is Collins stats, like anyone here would really need to see them.

STATS PPG FG% APG RPG BLKPG STLPG
2012-13 1.0 .273 0.1 2.3 0.36 0.45
Career 3.7 .411 0.9 3.9 0.51 0.51

Right now I dont see why is Jason Collins playing,guards are getting easy baskets in front of him,he is not rebounding,he is not scoring,the other teams are scoring a lot of point in the paint and his man is usually playing double team deffense on the other players.Last night when Sully was playing the team was close in the score,even some times ahead but Doc took him out of the game to put Collins and in a few minutes they were ahead for 10 points.

We just lost 3 games in a row by 18 points, seems to me if we keep this continuity going were in bigger trouble than if we don't change it, change can be painful, but necessary for growth.

This is one of the things I like about the discussions we have here; there are lots of well thought out opinions looking at the team and each season from different angles.

Personally, I'm in the camp that says leave Melo in the D league for at least a year. I do find, however, that several people are using solid reasoning on why they would bring him in and play him. I will agree that just becuase we've done something in a given way in the past, that doesn't mean we have to always go down the same path. Ultimately that reasoning can be flawed and lead to 22 years without a title. We also need to consider that the game evolves, and so do we, so it may just be time for a different brand of Celtic basketball.

I'll stick with my reasoning for leaving Melo where he is for now. I will say that in my opinion, those who think otherwise are not unreasonable in their thinking. The very fact that we signed whats-his-name for an additional forward recently is a sign of some amount of desperation. It's also a sign that management doesn't think Melo is ready. What's more I would say if we get into February and we're still no better than the 7th or 8th seed, bringing in someone like Melo makes perfect sense and I'm sure the team would do just that.

Cow makes a classic and true point in his last post that change can be painful, but needed. I would add the old axiom that change is the constant and rate is the variable. I think we'll see what the rate of change is going to be by mid-season, especially if there has been no progress with the team as is.

Cow,

For one thing, I guess you and I may differ on what "continuity" means. When I introduced the concept to the board, it was intended to mean "lack of disruption" to the lineup. DIScontinuity is usually caused by inconsistency in the rotation, whether by lineup changes or by adding or losing players by trade or injury.

What you're talking about is chemistry, not discontinuity, and they are definitely not the same thing although discontinuity can certainly lead to lack of chemistry. For the most part this season, the cast of characters has remained pretty much the same, although there have been several experiments with roles. But, for the first time in three years, the team has not been seriously affected by a lot of discontinuity caused by injuries. When Bradley returns, there will be some discontinuity because even the return of injured players can result in discontinuity as the team is forced to make whatever adjustments may be required by his return.

The LACK of DIScontinuity this season is actually a valid reason to worry about the performance of this team. As they continue to exhibit poor chemistry at both ends of the floor WITHOUT suffering the disruptive effects of discontinuity, it probably means there's something more dysfunctional going on.

I think it was Heinsohn, after last night's game, who said that the only way the Celtics can win is to play hard, and he doesn't believe the entire team realizes that. He also suggested that they may need to change their offensive and/or defensive systems, presumably to be more in keeping with the abilities of the players. Tom and Donny Marshall agreed that, while Collins may add a little toughness, he doesn't possess the quickness required to defend the basket, and his lack of quickness is a major reason why the Celtics are getting out of the gate so slowly in games.

I agree. I very much believe that they need a center, and I very much believe that Avery Bradley should provide a needed part. But, unlike the people who think player reinforcements are the answer to what's ailing the Celtics, I believe that's only part of the story. This team definitely needs some serious adjustment in its mental approach to the game.

Whatever the "fix" turns out to be (and let's hope there is one), the addition of an unseasoned, tall but awkward kid at center is likely to create more discontinuity than continuity as the team hopefully goes about making the numerous, serious adjustments that it needs. An experienced center is more likely to get with the program quickly and help with those adjustments rather than mucking them up while demanding coaching time that would be better spent in addressing the serious operational problems of the team..

If Danny and Doc decide Melo will help the team emerge from the funk that currently seems to exist, I'll be his biggest supporter. But, right now, there are a lot of variables in play, and they need to be addressed with as little disruption as possible.

And, by the way, "It couldn't be worse" by adding Melo is not a fact. It could definitely be worse if his presence somehow created discontinuity without commensurate benefits. I can't believe any general manager who's hoping his team will be in contention would make a move because "it couldn't be worse."

Sam

Fab Melo is not playing today in the D League game.Does anybody know why?.

International,

Concussion sidelines Melo

Celtics rookie Fab Melo, who had a couple of monster efforts earlier this month, was sidelined for Monday's game due to a mild concussion. From the Portland Press Herald's Kevin Thomas: Fab Melo has a mild concussion and is listed day-to-day- Kevin Thomas (@KevinThomasPPH) December 31, 2012

Thank you Sam for the answer.I want to wish you and the other members in the forum a happy new year and God Bless you .

Sam

I understand your meaning of continuity, you could say with Rondos injury we had discontinuity that hurt the team last 2 games, I was just adding chemistry because, the team is not playing well at all in many phases, so thats what I came up with. Our perimeter defense has never been worse as teams young quick guards can get open on the perimeter and drive by us forcing the bigs to rotate, opening up the lane/rim. Thats just one problem.

I'm not gonna reiterate all I said about Melo, no need to beat a point to death, but still feel he should be given a shot with the varsity and not just garbage minutes. I'd start Sully with KG, Sullys earned it, then when KG goes out I'd put Melo in, leave him in when Sully goes to bench so he can play alittle with KG. That was the role Steamer had when we were on a good run last year, either way the team needs alot of adjustments to find the best chemistry and strategy to play to each players strengths before we can set the best continuity pattern....we have to find it first, we haven't found a continuity pattern that works best yet as we've lost 7 of 9 I believe.

cow

Cow,

I guess confusion still exists.

In my definition, "continuity" is not a form of strategy. It's a condition that exists or doesn't exist to varying degrees. You don't "set the best continuity pattern." The best "continuity pattern" is to have all your players available all the time so that you have a maximum number of strategic options at your disposal. Simple as that.

What you're talking about involves what a coach decides to do with those options. That's called "strategy," not "continuity." If discontinuity is present to a sufficient degree, you need strategy to confront the problem.

One type of strategy involves lineup decisions. That's what I'd call "rotation strategy," not "continuity." "Chemistry" (not continuity) is one measure of how strategy is working. The wrong rotation strategy (such as continually shuttling players in and out of the lineup) can cause its own form of discontinuity. But, even then, discontinuity is still a condition, not a response to a condition.

Personally, I don't view a couple of games without Rondo at full strength as being of sufficient importance to invalidate the Celtics' system, although they can serve a reminder to management that maybe they should give Delonte West a call. On the whole, the team has enjoyed remarkable continuity, especially compared with previous years, and it's a combination of questionable strategy, poor execution, and inadequate staffing at center/PG on which concern should be focused.

I wouldn't belabor this except that, feeling so close to the continuity concept, I try to make sure board members know what I meant when I introduced the term to the board a couple of years ago. They (and you) are obviously free to believe in it, not believe in it as they see fit. I'm simply trying to ensure that the meanings of "continuity" and "discontinuity" aren't so vague as to be confusing when someone uses the term.

Sam

Sam

I know I brought up different terms such as strategy and chemistry into the post and know they are all different from continuity, I was just going into different terms to state my point, I know the difference of all 3.

cow