Fab Melo did it again

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by NYCelt on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:57 pm

Hawk,

Interesting thoughts.

Regards

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:27 am

hawk

Nice post, agree with all your points on Melo.

sam

The teams chemistry or continuity seems to be not working if you equate winning with the continuity. If your just looking at glimmers, yeah you could say Sully is improving, Jeff Green is getting it, as is Lee, but the team is still not winning despite that. Our interior defense is not there this season up to now, KG tries, but some defensive chemistry is way off as stats can show and I'm not a stat guy. In other words the continuity this year is off in enough phases that its not so sacred that you can't disrupt it by adding a talented enough piece that will go through growing pains, but in the long run is worth the shake up to see what dimensions he can bring/add to a team in need of better chemistry/continuity because right now the teams functions/aspirations of winning are not happening.....in laymans words our interior defense needs a bigger better body, you could gain more taking that risk, than leave it as is, again because right now we are weak protecting the rim and need help. KG is also not gonna be here forever, if I'm a GM I want Melo further learning on the floor and practice as much as he can from the Master....sooner you start the process the better IMHO.

cow

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:48 am

I just saw the boxscore of tonites game, did anyone see Jason Collins line? He had 0 points, 1 rebound and no blocked shots in 17 minutes. I know he does things that don't show up in the boxscore, but it seems this team needs Melo or some bigman help desperately.....could Melo even learning on the fly on the varsity be this impotent? he couldn't be worse.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by tardust on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:00 am

hawksnestbeach wrote:To this great board: When the Celtics are playing great, it's easy to agree with management, sit back and cheer. When they stink up the joint, it's natural to question why. I don't think that questioning, or lobbying for changes, is the mark of a fair-weather fan.
After playing and watching for decades, I can't help but think "what would I do differently" when our strategy doesn't pan out.
So with that preface, I think it's time to reboot:
By keeping PP and KG, we're in win-now mode, "win-now" meaning we want to make the playoffs and win in April and May. It doesn't matter at all if we lose any particular game in Jan. and Feb. as long as we make the playoffs, and it doesn't really matter if we make the playoffs and are trounced in the first round.
So how do we get better by April?
We have to save KG, PP and RR from grueling minutes. They should play enough to stay sharp and that's all.
We have to bring along the new guys - Green, Sully, Lee, Joseph and yes, Melo, by giving them lots of minutes and meaningful roles.
I've advocated starting Green (hoping it would cure his funk), and I wouldn't mind starting any of the others for a stretch because I don't think they'll produce unless they are called on to shine, left in when they make mistakes, and learn to succeed, like Lee last night.
Let's find out what we have:
Sully's a good example. One might argue he's been given the minutes because he deserves them. But part of his success may be that he was given the minutes before he deserved them and has repaid that confidence shown in him with increasingly better production.
As this is the Melo thread, at the risk of repetition, I hope he dons green soon. I don't disagree with those who say he'd be better off in Maine, but my Main concern is this Celtics' season.
On a legit contender, Collins would be nice insurance, but he's not going to take us anywhere. At this point, I think Melo runs, blocks, scores and rebounds better. Of course, Collins is headier because he's played in so many more games. But that's exactly why I'd rather play Melo, now. (And I realize that if Doc doesn't play him, there's no sense in calling him up, so what I'm saying is that DA and Doc should commit to playing him significant minutes with the big boys now.)
Of course, if we're about to land another center, fine. But looking at our roster and the market, I don't see a better option.
Melo may be a prodigy. He's only halfway there, but who else, after five years of ball, is drafted in the first round?
As a freshman at SU, as Beat has noted, he looked lost and played few minutes. As a sophomore, he was easily twice as good - Big East DPLY. He might be twice as good as that right now.
And chemistry: Sam, I agree it's bad to disrupt good chemistry, but I haven't seen much. Last season, we developed chemistry only when Ray went down and Bradley began to start, so by breaking up the Three Amigos and improving speed on the perimeter, we developed better chemistry.
I think if Melo were throwing his 273 pounds around the paint for a couple of weeks, catching a few Rondo passes, we might also improve chemistry.
In any case, Happy New Year to all and Go Celtics! Hawk - 90 minutes southeast of Syracuse.

Hawk you pretty much put it out there like I am thinking. I also don't want Melo to just get garbage minutes. Our chemistry to this point probably is the worst I have seen it. (well maybe last year at the same game total) I just have a hard time thinking we are going to change into this other team as is. Continue to do the same things with the same people and most of the time you will get the same results. Melo if could rebound and block shots, i would say mission accomplished. I feel like were wasting valuable time playing Collins. I was pretty much on the get rid of Bradley bandwagon. The only reason I wasn't as vocal was I didn't see much we could get with him. The one thing you knew from day one was he could play defense. Same with Melo except its blocking shots number one, and hopefully getting rebounds. Look at the Warriors. As good as their record is, they have a similar type player I suppose he is starting. Is Festus that much better than Melo? Anyway opinions are like _____ everyone has one.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by tardust on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:10 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:I just saw the boxscore of tonites game, did anyone see Jason Collins line? He had 0 points, 1 rebound and no blocked shots in 17 minutes. I know he does things that don't show up in the boxscore, but it seems this team needs Melo or some bigman help desperately.....could Melo even learning on the fly on the varsity be this impotent? he couldn't be worse.

I had reviewed Collins stats before last night. Its pretty consistant. He gets one or two rebounds a game, scores one or two pts a game, fouls from 2-5 times a game. Get a block every other game. I realize he is a veteran and doesn't make as many mistakes as Melo would but I just don't see anything else he brings. If not Melo I would just as soon see Sully eat up those minutes. I don't see the results being any worse. Here is Collins stats, like anyone here would really need to see them.

STATS PPG FG% APG RPG BLKPG STLPG
2012-13 1.0 .273 0.1 2.3 0.36 0.45
Career 3.7 .411 0.9 3.9 0.51 0.51

Basketball Basketball

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by international on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:14 am

Right now I dont see why is Jason Collins playing,guards are getting easy baskets in front of him,he is not rebounding,he is not scoring,the other teams are scoring a lot of point in the paint and his man is usually playing double team deffense on the other players.Last night when Sully was playing the team was close in the score,even some times ahead but Doc took him out of the game to put Collins and in a few minutes they were ahead for 10 points.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:38 am

We just lost 3 games in a row by 18 points, seems to me if we keep this continuity going were in bigger trouble than if we don't change it, change can be painful, but necessary for growth.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by NYCelt on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:12 am

This is one of the things I like about the discussions we have here; there are lots of well thought out opinions looking at the team and each season from different angles.

Personally, I'm in the camp that says leave Melo in the D league for at least a year. I do find, however, that several people are using solid reasoning on why they would bring him in and play him. I will agree that just becuase we've done something in a given way in the past, that doesn't mean we have to always go down the same path. Ultimately that reasoning can be flawed and lead to 22 years without a title. We also need to consider that the game evolves, and so do we, so it may just be time for a different brand of Celtic basketball.

I'll stick with my reasoning for leaving Melo where he is for now. I will say that in my opinion, those who think otherwise are not unreasonable in their thinking. The very fact that we signed whats-his-name for an additional forward recently is a sign of some amount of desperation. It's also a sign that management doesn't think Melo is ready. What's more I would say if we get into February and we're still no better than the 7th or 8th seed, bringing in someone like Melo makes perfect sense and I'm sure the team would do just that.

Cow makes a classic and true point in his last post that change can be painful, but needed. I would add the old axiom that change is the constant and rate is the variable. I think we'll see what the rate of change is going to be by mid-season, especially if there has been no progress with the team as is.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:42 am

Cow,

For one thing, I guess you and I may differ on what "continuity" means. When I introduced the concept to the board, it was intended to mean "lack of disruption" to the lineup. DIScontinuity is usually caused by inconsistency in the rotation, whether by lineup changes or by adding or losing players by trade or injury.

What you're talking about is chemistry, not discontinuity, and they are definitely not the same thing although discontinuity can certainly lead to lack of chemistry. For the most part this season, the cast of characters has remained pretty much the same, although there have been several experiments with roles. But, for the first time in three years, the team has not been seriously affected by a lot of discontinuity caused by injuries. When Bradley returns, there will be some discontinuity because even the return of injured players can result in discontinuity as the team is forced to make whatever adjustments may be required by his return.

The LACK of DIScontinuity this season is actually a valid reason to worry about the performance of this team. As they continue to exhibit poor chemistry at both ends of the floor WITHOUT suffering the disruptive effects of discontinuity, it probably means there's something more dysfunctional going on.

I think it was Heinsohn, after last night's game, who said that the only way the Celtics can win is to play hard, and he doesn't believe the entire team realizes that. He also suggested that they may need to change their offensive and/or defensive systems, presumably to be more in keeping with the abilities of the players. Tom and Donny Marshall agreed that, while Collins may add a little toughness, he doesn't possess the quickness required to defend the basket, and his lack of quickness is a major reason why the Celtics are getting out of the gate so slowly in games.

I agree. I very much believe that they need a center, and I very much believe that Avery Bradley should provide a needed part. But, unlike the people who think player reinforcements are the answer to what's ailing the Celtics, I believe that's only part of the story. This team definitely needs some serious adjustment in its mental approach to the game.

Whatever the "fix" turns out to be (and let's hope there is one), the addition of an unseasoned, tall but awkward kid at center is likely to create more discontinuity than continuity as the team hopefully goes about making the numerous, serious adjustments that it needs. An experienced center is more likely to get with the program quickly and help with those adjustments rather than mucking them up while demanding coaching time that would be better spent in addressing the serious operational problems of the team..

If Danny and Doc decide Melo will help the team emerge from the funk that currently seems to exist, I'll be his biggest supporter. But, right now, there are a lot of variables in play, and they need to be addressed with as little disruption as possible.

And, by the way, "It couldn't be worse" by adding Melo is not a fact. It could definitely be worse if his presence somehow created discontinuity without commensurate benefits. I can't believe any general manager who's hoping his team will be in contention would make a move because "it couldn't be worse."

Sam

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by international on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:20 pm

Fab Melo is not playing today in the D League game.Does anybody know why?.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:42 pm

International,

Concussion sidelines Melo

Celtics rookie Fab Melo, who had a couple of monster efforts earlier this month, was sidelined for Monday's game due to a mild concussion. From the Portland Press Herald's Kevin Thomas: Fab Melo has a mild concussion and is listed day-to-day- Kevin Thomas (@KevinThomasPPH) December 31, 2012

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by international on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:45 pm

Thank you Sam for the answer.I want to wish you and the other members in the forum a happy new year and God Bless you .

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:55 pm

Sam

I understand your meaning of continuity, you could say with Rondos injury we had discontinuity that hurt the team last 2 games, I was just adding chemistry because, the team is not playing well at all in many phases, so thats what I came up with. Our perimeter defense has never been worse as teams young quick guards can get open on the perimeter and drive by us forcing the bigs to rotate, opening up the lane/rim. Thats just one problem.

I'm not gonna reiterate all I said about Melo, no need to beat a point to death, but still feel he should be given a shot with the varsity and not just garbage minutes. I'd start Sully with KG, Sullys earned it, then when KG goes out I'd put Melo in, leave him in when Sully goes to bench so he can play alittle with KG. That was the role Steamer had when we were on a good run last year, either way the team needs alot of adjustments to find the best chemistry and strategy to play to each players strengths before we can set the best continuity pattern....we have to find it first, we haven't found a continuity pattern that works best yet as we've lost 7 of 9 I believe.

cow

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:15 pm

Cow,

I guess confusion still exists.

In my definition, "continuity" is not a form of strategy. It's a condition that exists or doesn't exist to varying degrees. You don't "set the best continuity pattern." The best "continuity pattern" is to have all your players available all the time so that you have a maximum number of strategic options at your disposal. Simple as that.

What you're talking about involves what a coach decides to do with those options. That's called "strategy," not "continuity." If discontinuity is present to a sufficient degree, you need strategy to confront the problem.

One type of strategy involves lineup decisions. That's what I'd call "rotation strategy," not "continuity." "Chemistry" (not continuity) is one measure of how strategy is working. The wrong rotation strategy (such as continually shuttling players in and out of the lineup) can cause its own form of discontinuity. But, even then, discontinuity is still a condition, not a response to a condition.

Personally, I don't view a couple of games without Rondo at full strength as being of sufficient importance to invalidate the Celtics' system, although they can serve a reminder to management that maybe they should give Delonte West a call. On the whole, the team has enjoyed remarkable continuity, especially compared with previous years, and it's a combination of questionable strategy, poor execution, and inadequate staffing at center/PG on which concern should be focused.

I wouldn't belabor this except that, feeling so close to the continuity concept, I try to make sure board members know what I meant when I introduced the term to the board a couple of years ago. They (and you) are obviously free to believe in it, not believe in it as they see fit. I'm simply trying to ensure that the meanings of "continuity" and "discontinuity" aren't so vague as to be confusing when someone uses the term.

Sam

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:34 pm

Sam

I know I brought up different terms such as strategy and chemistry into the post and know they are all different from continuity, I was just going into different terms to state my point, I know the difference of all 3.

cow

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:03 am

Cow,

Happy New Year.

Sam

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:21 am

Thanks Sam Happy New Year to you and the Mrs too.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by Outside on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:25 pm

Sam,

We may be using the term differently, but I do think there is an aspect of continuity that is dependent on playing patterns. To me, continuity isn't just having the same set of players healthy and available, it's also establishing predictable playing time for those players. Many a coach has screwed up continuity by making players part of the rotation, then sitting them with a DNP-CD for extended stretches, then bringing them back into the rotation.

An example on the Celtics this year would be Barbosa. I don't remember if he's missed games due to injury, but he's only played 24 of 30 games. Even more significant is the disparity in minutes for the games he has played. Here is his game log:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barbole01/gamelog/2013/

Maybe you just consider continuity to be availability, but I think it's also how players are used once they are available. Another example would be KG's usage last season, where he was a power forward for the first part of the year and center for the latter part. He got consistent playing time, and playing him at center turned out to be a good move for the team, but making the switch was a disruption in continuity.

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by dboss on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:34 pm

Speaking of continuity.

I previously have suggested that Jeff Green needed to play 30 MPG. Well over the past 5 games he is averaging 30 MPG and he is shooting .352%.

Continuity wwould be in effect if JG continues to log 30 MPG.

dboss

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Re: Fab Melo did it again

Post by sam on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:44 pm

Outside,

Please note above where I said:

The wrong rotation strategy (such as continually shuttling players in and out of the lineup) can cause its own form of discontinuity.

Happy New Year,

Sam

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