Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by swish on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:55 pm

Bob,

I wonder if any of the following teams have honored their championship predecessors. Phil.via Syracuse
OKC " Seattle
G.S " Philadelphia (warriors)
Atl " St.Louis
Sac " Rochester(Royals)
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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by bobheckler on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:54 pm

swish wrote:Bob,

I wonder if any of the following teams have honored their championship predecessors. Phil.via Syracuse
OKC " Seattle
G.S " Philadelphia (warriors)
Atl " St.Louis
Sac " Rochester(Royals)
Swish


swish,

Good question.

The Seattle Supersonics are dead, that's why they are the OKC Thunder now. I don't think they claim the Seattle Championships as their own, so I wouldn't expect them to honor the players from those teams, however, Gus Williams' and Jack Sikma's and Nate McMillan's and Lenny Wilkens' and Spencer Haywood's and "Downtown" Freddie Brown's and Bob Blackburn's numbers are all retired. So, even though they are not in Seattle (or anywhere near it) and aren't even called the Supersonics they honor the Sonics greats. According to Wikipedia, "The owners agreed to leave the 'SuperSonics' name, logo, and colors in Seattle for a possible future NBA franchise; however the items would remain the property of the Oklahoma City team along with other "assets," including championship banners and trophies". So, they honor those Champion players. Classy.

The GSW are still the Warriors, but I've never heard the team nor any of its fans claim the Philly championships as their own. Paul Arizin chose to retire from the NBA than move to San Francisco with the team. Considering he was a superstar of the time, I could see where that might create a bad taste in the owners' mouths. "Jumping Joe" Fulks' ('46-54) number has not been retired either. Tom Gola's ('55-62) number has not been retired. Neither has Hal Greer's or Billy Cunningham's, but Philly has retired those numbers. Hmmm, it appears the city wanted to claim them more than the club. Maybe that's why they have been shunned in CA? Wilt's number is retired. It is inconceivable that any and every team that ever had Wilt on it wouldn't retire the number he wore when he was there. They have retired Joe Meschery's number. They've retired Chris Mullin's, Nate Thurmond's (Cleveland has also retired Nate's number). They should honor Fulks and Gola. They are HOFers who brought championships to the club. Shame on them.

The Hawks retired Bob Pettit's number. They have not retired Frank Selvy's, Ed McCauley's or Cliff Hagen's even though those guys won a championship and beat Bill Russell and the Celtics to do it. Shame on them. They have retired Pettit's, 'Nique's (who won nothing) and Lou Hudson's. That's all. Shame on them.

The Royals don't exist anymore than the Supersonics do, but they have retired Nate Archibald's number, Sam Lacey's (Cincy Royals), Jack Tyman (Cincy Royals) and Maurice Stokes (Cincy Royals) and the Big O's number, just to name the older timers. When Maurice Stokes was paralyzed in the final game of the 1958 season, Jack Tyman became Maurice Stoke's legal guardian. He also organized the Maurice Stokes Memorial Game, first to raise money to pay for Stokes' care and then after his death to help needy players. Classy guy, classy franchise honoring him and Maurice and Nate the Skate and Big O, all before Sacto.


Orlando has only honored the fans. They have retired no numbers, not even Shaq's or Penny Hardaway's. That's a bit extreme in the other direction, don't you think?


bob


.


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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by tjmakz on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:20 pm

bob,

I believe the Lakers and some other teams only retire numbers of players that are in the Hall of Fame. Concerning Orlando, I am pretty sure Shaq and Dwight will have their numbers retired in time. I don't think Penny or Grant Hill deserve to have their numbers retired.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by swish on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:20 pm

Bob

For record keeping purposes (both team and player) the league uses francise history rather than city or nick-name. Like Los Angles- Minneapolis, the 5 teams that I listed all have an uninterupted history in the NBA and are treated as one team.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by dboss on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:29 pm

Stick a fork in them..even if healthy the lack of defense at the pg position has doomed them.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by Outside on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:53 pm

Sam wrote: I just think that, through the years, [the Lakers have] been better front-runners than come-from-behind experts, and I believe the reason is cultural in nature.

There's usually been something about the kind of loosey-goosey, pseudo laid-back, Jack Nicholson/Dyan Cannon kind of environment with which the Lakers are often identified that has seemed to contrast with the kind of persistent intensity that most typically seems to characterize the Celtics.

...I sympathize with them, especially with all the key injuries they've had. The playoffs are a long way away. I won't be shocked if the Lakers make it, and I won't be shocked if they don't. I would be shocked if the Celtics didn't make the playoffs, just on the strength of the compulsion I feel their culture engenders.
As for the ability to come from behind, I think what we're discussing here is the Lakers' ability to come from behind in the standings, not necessarily in a particular game. But in either case, what team isn't a better front-runner than come-from-behind expert? During the Russell years, the Celtics were almost always getting the jump on other teams in the standings, and they had the best record in the East during Russell's first nine seasons; that only changed when Father Time caught up with them. Red used conditioning in training camp to have an advantage with the first game because other teams "played themselves into shape." I think of the other Celtic teams over the years as being powerhouse teams that got ahead and stayed ahead of their rivals. It's only the past couple of seasons that they've started really slow and picked it up in the second half. I must be misunderstanding what you're saying here, because I don't see any significant history by the Celtics coming back from a poor start to the season.

The other part is that I think people miss the mark completely when they confuse the laid-back LA stereotype with a casual nature on the part of the Lakers themselves. The Laker teams who were championship caliber earned it through hard work, and they were willing to pay their dues just as much as the Celtics. Despite the reputation of the LA crowd (and the possibly singular exception of Shaq), I think both franchises have exhibited persistent intensity. I think you're far more familiar with it in the Celtics and probably more willing to dismiss it in the Lakers.

I cannot recall a team going through anything like what this year's Lakers have.

• Seven new players, including two starters and four of the top eight players in terms of minutes
• Howard recovering from serious back surgery
• Gasol with significant tendinitis in both knees and plantar faciitis
• An entirely different and difficult offense
• Nash missing 24 games
• Blake missing all but seven games (I know he's not great, but he was the backup to Nash, and his loss compounds their issues)
• Brown fired after five games
• The Jackson-D'Antoni hiring circus
• D'Antoni implementing another entirely new offense without a training camp or Nash and while hobbling around after a knee replacement
• And now Howard's shoulder injury and Gasol's concussion

You can say some of this stuff is self-inflicted by the front office (particularly Jim Buss, and you won't get an argument from me on that), but you cannot convince me that if the Celtics were subjected to a level of chaos anything like this that they'd overcome it because of their culture. They've had enough trouble this season dealing with a fairly normal level of injuries.

The Celtics are not the only team with a culture of tradition, dedication, and persistent intensity that leads to sustained levels of championship basketball over decades. It's fine to celebrate it in the Celtics, but you're selling the Lakers short by dismissing them based on a stereotype of the LA crowd.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by Outside on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:31 pm

bobheckler wrote:Former Celtics are granted life-time access to the locker room. When Tommy Heinsohn, 8x champion as a player and 2x champion as a coach, is walking around on an almost daily basis it must be hard to be nonchalant. If you have ever listened to Tommy do a broadcast you know he is a big-time homie, but he is also still extremely competitive. His play-by-play partner, Mike Gorman, said the other day that they were watching a "good game". Tommy replied "to hell with that! I want to win!".

I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but with the Celtics it's not so much an expectation of winning so much as there is an almost insecure need to win, just so you don't embarrass the old-timers who made this franchise.
As far as I can tell, the Lakers also have retired players from championship teams walking around. Magic is a presence. James Worthy is on the pregame, halftime, and postgame Laker broadcasts, so I assume he sees the players regularly. Kareem has been a special assistant for quite a while. Jerry West was the GM for years, and while Mitch Kupchak doesn't have the player resume of West, he is a three-time champion (once with the Bullets, twice with the Lakers). I would think there are other retired players who drop in.

In lieu of having someone who spends time around each team and can give us the real scoop, my sense is that both teams have the benefit of seeing retired champions walking the halls. The Lakers just don't have someone with quite the, uh, force of personality that you get with Tommy.

bobheckler wrote:Exalt showtime and that becomes the accepted and expected style. Exalt clock-punching, lunchpail carrying grinders and that becomes the accepted and expected style. Here in the bay area, our problem for years has been that many of today's Warrior fans grew up with Run TMC. They did't win shit, but they were fun and exciting to watch, and that became an acceptable style and tolerated result. It became "who the Warriors were", they're run-and-gunners, win-or-lose.
There were obvious differences between the Magic Lakers and Bird Celtics, and "showtime" came to represent Magic's dazzling play and the Lakers' fastbreaking style, but like with Sam's comment about the laid-back LA crowd, I don't think you should confuse that with any lack of toughness on the Lakers' part. They were committed to exhibiting the toughness necessary to win five titles in the '80's, and they became particularly committed to that toughness after losing to Boston in the 1984 finals. They came back to beat the Celtics the next two times they met in the finals and won titles three out of the next four years.

I'm not saying the Celtics and Lakers are the same. They do have differences, and associating the Celtics with a lunchpail and the Lakers with showtime does have some merit, just not as much as those stereotypes suggest. The Celtics are traditionally far more skilled and play with far more finesse than the lunchpail stereotype suggests, and the Lakers traditionally play with far more toughness and grit than the showtime stereotype suggests.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by sam on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:46 am

BobH and Others,

As for my comment about the LA crowds, I'm not claiming that Lakers players adopt the same relatively casual, entertainment-craving orientation as many of the fans have. I would never be so shallow as to say, "Gee, Kobe Bryant and Doris Day have a lot in common." But the L.A. crowds are symptomatic of the kind of environment the Los Angeles Lakers have called home, and there's a natural tendency to be influenced to at least some degree by one's environment. Contrast that influence with a team that was established in an environment forged, in great part, by lunch pail carrying Irish and Italian immigrants.

My theory is that, ever since the word "Showtime" became associated with the team, Lakers players have had to feel that at least a bit of their responsibility (along with their major responsibility of winning) involves entertaining. The responsibility for maintaining their individual public statures coexists with their responsibility for winning, to a greater extent than has traditionally been true with the Celtics, who are generally characterized by victory tunnel vision.

I’m sure there are many ways to attack my theory. But just run the following nicknames through a random NATIONAL sample of NBA fans, and see how well these nicknames are known: The Logo, The Black Mamba, Magic, The Big Aristotle, and The Big Diesel (cripes, the guy's got two of them). The reason they’d be so well-known is that they’re more than nicknames. They’re virtual brands. (As in the marketing of individuals)

I just looked up a long list of perhaps 200-300 NBA nicknames through the years, and Bill Russell wasn't even on the list. Nor was Sam Jones. Numbers one and two in the all-time championship ring parade. The best known Celtics nicknames at the present time would probably be either The Big Ticket or The Truth—neither of which is exactly a household fixture. In fact, “The Truth” was coined by—guess who—a Lakers player.

Of course there will always be former Lakers who are visible—in part because many are associated with (guess what?) the entertainment media.

I’m willing to concede that it’s probably a coincidence that I’ve never heard the Lakers associated with the word “family” in my numerous trips to L.A. The main reason Tom Heinsohn is such a homer is not to gain media attention. He’s still carrying a Celtics lunch pail. Listen to him without knowing who he is, and he could be a stevedore who happens to have a high basketball IQ.

I just learned about the following yesterday but felt it was so unsurprising that it wasn’. As the Celtics and Lakers prepared to play Game 7 of the 2010 finals, Sam Jones got together with a sporting goods company and financed the sending of “Respect Is Earned” jerseys to all the Celtics. The shirts were either presented to the Celtics personally or in their lockers before the game. Sam was hoping the shirts would remind the team of the 1969 Balloon Game. Sam certainly didn’t do it for money or publicity. If it had been widely publicized, I guarantee I’d have known about it. The gesture didn’t achieve the desired result, but at least—after 41 years—Sam was still focused exclusively on trying. That’s the Celtics’ way.

I understand that a lot of people want to ascribe variations between teams to stylistic or performance differences. There's some degree of discomfort when discussing team cultures. But there are important differences, which can be discerned over time based on the little bits and pieces that collectively become quite revealing.

Bottom line: When I compare the Celtics’ and Lakers’ cultures, it pretty simply boils down to lunch pail, tunnel vision cohesiveness versus a very talented Showtime approach with somewhat greater emphasis on stars. Both approaches have enjoyed considerable success.

With one mythical game to be played for the eternal championship of the universe, and assuming all other factors were hypothetically held equal, I believe the lunch pail culture would have the greater probability of prevailing. But, hey, I'm a product of a lunch pail environment.

I apologize for duplicating some thoughts and terms that have appeared earlier on the thread. I started this darned thing several hours ago and should have realized that the great minds on this board would scoop me to some extent.

Sam

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by tjmakz on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:24 pm

Well, another game, another loss for the Lakers.
This game teetered between a 7-15 point lead for the Spurs for most of the game. With very little positive events happening this year for the Lakers, I am proud of the fight they showed last night.

Earl Clark is probably the 2nd best defensive player the Lakers have and the 2nd best athlete on the team. After a 22 pt, 13 reb effort from Clark, D'Antoni has to now give Clark the minutes to prove that he is or is not deserving of playing time.

If Dwight, Gasol and Hill aren't back soon, the Lakers could amazingly be sellers at the trade deadline. The one thing they can't do is panic and take on a long term contract from a player that has already seen his best days on the court. The Nowitzki for Howard trade idea that has been discussed this morning is beyond laughable. Yes, Dirk would be a great stretch 4 for the Lakers, but the Lakers would need to score 135 ppg to win games...

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by worcester on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:40 pm

Sam, It's always a pleasure to read your musings, however repetitive they may be. Speaking of lunchpail, Worcester is about as lunchpail a town as you get, and both Tommy and the Cooz called it home when they were Celtics. They both lived a few blocks away from me in what were distinctly middle class homes. They drove the 40 miles home from the Garden down Route 9 after each game, Tommy usually falling asleep with Cooz at the wheel. During the winter that road can be pretty sloppy. It's hard for me to imagine any of the Lakers stars going down that road in anything but a limo.

Regarding the Orlando Magic retiring the numbers for Shaq and Dwight, I don't think that will ever happen. The fans here in Florida felt jilted by both when they left for LA, and they don't want to honor their memories. Hell hath no fury like an NBA fan scorned.


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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by steve3344 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:49 pm

tjmakz wrote:
steve3344 wrote:
Outside wrote:The Lakers are in a tough spot, already underwhelming and entering a tough stretch of games with their top three big men out. Even so, I still think the playoffs are possible for them.

I saw yesterday where the average record for the 8th seed in the West over the past several years is 48 wins and that the Lakers would have to go 33-16 over the rest the season to get there. That may be so, but I'm inclined to think that the 8th seed won't have that many wins this year.

Here's my theory: the bottom of the West has gotten better.

To make the playoffs, you have to be better than seven other teams in the conference. In the recent past, there were four teams in the West you could automatically put out of the playoffs before the season began -- Kings, Timberwolves, Clippers, and Warriors. In a tier just above them, you had the Suns, Rockets, Blazers, Jazz, and Hornets generally having mediocre seasons with two of them getting into the playoffs. The rest of the conference fattened up on the reliably bad teams and whichever teams in the next tier were having an off year.

2008-09 - 4 worst teams combined for 83 wins; 8th seed at 48 wins
2009-10 - 4 worst teams combined for 95 wins; 8th seed at 50 wins
2010-11 - 4 worst teams combined for 109 wins; 8th seed at 46 wins
2011-12 - 4 worst teams combined for a projected 114 wins; 8th seed at a projected 45 wins
2012-13 - 4 worst teams currently averaging a projected 111 wins; 8th seed currently at a projected 46 wins

As you can see, the trend is that the bottom of the West has gotten better. The Clippers are obviously no longer a doormat, and even the Warriors are doing extremely well this year. Minnesota has gotten better and was projected to be in the playoff hunt but has been hampered by injuries. The Suns and Mavs have slipped to join the Kings and Hornets in the bottom four, but the Suns, Mavs, and Kings can all surprise on occasion.

It may take 45 wins to get the 8th seed. If so, the Lakers need to go 30-19 (.612) to make the playoffs. That's still a serious uphill climb, but it's far better than 33-16 (.673). There are currently eight teams playing better than that pace. Given the talent on the Lakers, that's possible.

Would I bet on it? I don't know. But it's certainly possible.

After losing to Houston tonight, which I predicted, Lakers are now 15-19. After losses to San Antonio and OKC in their next two games they will be 15-21. Right now, Denver, in the 8th spot is playing .555 ball which translates into 46 wins. If the Lakers get to 46 wins after being 15-21 they would have to go 31-15, a .674 clip after playing the first 36 games at a .417 pace. Granted they had lots of injuries in the first part of the season but I don't expect their injury problems to pretty much disappear next week. Some will linger.

To think they can turn it around to that extent - playing .674 ball for the last 46 games after playing 36 games at a .417 clip is, in my opinion, a VERY long shot.

And that's what they are at this stage of the season - a very long shot to make the playoffs. Which I don't see them doing.

The Lakers in the lottery next year? With a team that includes Kobe, Dwight, Nash and Gasol? Hard to believe but I'd bet on it. And this is a team that in pre-season, Artest (that's what he still is to me) predicted would win 72 games. Maybe he meant this year and next year combined.

Here's the interesting thing about the probability of the Lakers being in the lottery next summer.
Their 2013 1st round pick that they traded to Phoenix is not lottery protected.
If the Lakers don't make the playoffs, their lottery pick will be made by Phoenix.

2015 also which I just read on another thread.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by sam on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:31 pm

TJ,

Apropos of nothing and everything I want you to know that I have deliberately posted very little—and virtually nothing negative—about this year's Lakers team. My Lakers comments have been general ones—cultural, etc. I don't believe in kicking a team when it's down, and certainly not the Lakers, without whose many years of competition could easily have rendered the Celtics just another generic aggregation.

I sincerely hope the Lakers will experience a pivotal mid-year metamorphisis that will make them playoff eligible and playoff ready by April. As a Celtics fan, I can honestly say it's not nearly as much fun without the Lakers.

Of course, I naturally wish the same things for the Celtics, because their recent spate of success isn't guaranteed to persist.

I appreciate your candor about the Lakers, and I believe you also do a pretty objective job of assessing the Celtics—probably much more objective than that accorded the Lakers by this board as a whole. So there's absolutely nothing personal in my comments about the Lakers; and sometimes it's important to reaffirm that fact.

Sam

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by tjmakz on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:44 pm

steve3344 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
steve3344 wrote:
Outside wrote:The Lakers are in a tough spot, already underwhelming and entering a tough stretch of games with their top three big men out. Even so, I still think the playoffs are possible for them.

I saw yesterday where the average record for the 8th seed in the West over the past several years is 48 wins and that the Lakers would have to go 33-16 over the rest the season to get there. That may be so, but I'm inclined to think that the 8th seed won't have that many wins this year.

Here's my theory: the bottom of the West has gotten better.

To make the playoffs, you have to be better than seven other teams in the conference. In the recent past, there were four teams in the West you could automatically put out of the playoffs before the season began -- Kings, Timberwolves, Clippers, and Warriors. In a tier just above them, you had the Suns, Rockets, Blazers, Jazz, and Hornets generally having mediocre seasons with two of them getting into the playoffs. The rest of the conference fattened up on the reliably bad teams and whichever teams in the next tier were having an off year.

2008-09 - 4 worst teams combined for 83 wins; 8th seed at 48 wins
2009-10 - 4 worst teams combined for 95 wins; 8th seed at 50 wins
2010-11 - 4 worst teams combined for 109 wins; 8th seed at 46 wins
2011-12 - 4 worst teams combined for a projected 114 wins; 8th seed at a projected 45 wins
2012-13 - 4 worst teams currently averaging a projected 111 wins; 8th seed currently at a projected 46 wins

As you can see, the trend is that the bottom of the West has gotten better. The Clippers are obviously no longer a doormat, and even the Warriors are doing extremely well this year. Minnesota has gotten better and was projected to be in the playoff hunt but has been hampered by injuries. The Suns and Mavs have slipped to join the Kings and Hornets in the bottom four, but the Suns, Mavs, and Kings can all surprise on occasion.

It may take 45 wins to get the 8th seed. If so, the Lakers need to go 30-19 (.612) to make the playoffs. That's still a serious uphill climb, but it's far better than 33-16 (.673). There are currently eight teams playing better than that pace. Given the talent on the Lakers, that's possible.

Would I bet on it? I don't know. But it's certainly possible.

After losing to Houston tonight, which I predicted, Lakers are now 15-19. After losses to San Antonio and OKC in their next two games they will be 15-21. Right now, Denver, in the 8th spot is playing .555 ball which translates into 46 wins. If the Lakers get to 46 wins after being 15-21 they would have to go 31-15, a .674 clip after playing the first 36 games at a .417 pace. Granted they had lots of injuries in the first part of the season but I don't expect their injury problems to pretty much disappear next week. Some will linger.

To think they can turn it around to that extent - playing .674 ball for the last 46 games after playing 36 games at a .417 clip is, in my opinion, a VERY long shot.

And that's what they are at this stage of the season - a very long shot to make the playoffs. Which I don't see them doing.

The Lakers in the lottery next year? With a team that includes Kobe, Dwight, Nash and Gasol? Hard to believe but I'd bet on it. And this is a team that in pre-season, Artest (that's what he still is to me) predicted would win 72 games. Maybe he meant this year and next year combined.

Here's the interesting thing about the probability of the Lakers being in the lottery next summer.
Their 2013 1st round pick that they traded to Phoenix is not lottery protected.
If the Lakers don't make the playoffs, their lottery pick will be made by Phoenix.

2015 also which I just read on another thread.

The 2015 pick is top 5 protected.

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Re: Howard, Gasol and Hill are all injured

Post by bobheckler on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:26 pm

bobheckler wrote:
tjmakz wrote:bob,

Good points.
I watch probably 77 or 78 out of 82 Celtics games a year.
I am quite familiar with Tommy.
He drives me crazy but you take him for what he is.
Even though his homerism and complaining against the referees has turned into a side show, he deserves the upmost respect from all fans who care about the NBA. I really enjoy Mike Gorman. He is balanced, eloquent and a professional announcer and person.

Getting back to the Lakers vs. Celtics, I do think the organizations have different personalities that they want their players to fit into. The Lakers are a Hollywood team with drama every year. They want to be an offensive team that thrills the audience. Boston is a defensive, gritty, and tough team and they expect that from their players.


TJ,

You watch 77-78 Celtic games a year? Damn, I'm jealous, I don't think I get to watch that many. Too bad your baby blankets were purple-and-gold, you'd make a fine citizen of Celtics Nation. You've already paid your dues.

East coast vs west coast. As an east coaster who now resides on the left coast I see the difference every day. Even the blue collar workers out here aren't as gritty. Team's take on the personality of their fans. If you put a Doug Moe-like offense in Boston there would be a definite cultural separation. That's why D'Antoni's efforts in NY weren't appreciated and he didn't last long. He was the coach in Phoenix for 5 years. They had exciting teams there, but they were strictly greyhounds because that's what his system needs and the Phoenix fans liked it. In Denver, with their ABA history, they'd probably like it too. In Boston with our history of Bill Russell and Cowens and Bird, we'd bewail the Celtics' lack of defense and softness (unless they won a championship, in which case all would be forgiven, of course). His problem now, perhaps, will be that the media glare and fan expectations are significantly higher. He didn't produce fast enough for NYers and that might be true here. Here's a link to a LA Times article that is already claiming that the D'Antoni experiment is a failure. Obviously, this is just one writer's opinion and I personally don't think it is fair to dump all this on D'Antoni (refer to my plowhorse vs racehorse metaphor on another thread), but the drumbeat is beginning already. http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/05/sports/la-sp-simers-lakers-20130106

Most Laker fans today began with Magic's Showtime, just as most Celtic fans today started with Larry Legend's team. D'Antoni's style, in my opinion, would go down easier in LA than in Boston, due to the history the fans are plugged into and the local ethos. I also think there is a selective amnesia among Laker fans (NOT you) regarding pre-Magic Lakers. My bitch with the Buss family began with Jerry's unwillingness to retire George Mikan and Slater Martin's (5x champions each) numbers like he retired Gail Goodrich's (1), West's (1) and Baylor's (0). Man, if you don't exalt your champions by any and all means available you are seriously missing the boat and Mikan and his boys were no sissies. It's almost like Buss made a deliberate decision to not start the clock on Laker history until after they won a championship in LA. Yeah, he created a plaque honoring the Minny guys, but it's not the same as hanging 99 and 15 right next to 33, 32 and 42. Other than this, as I have stated, I have tremendous respect for Jerry Buss and what he has accomplished in his life.

Exalt showtime and that becomes the accepted and expected style. Exalt clock-punching, lunchpail carrying grinders and that becomes the accepted and expected style. Here in the bay area, our problem for years has been that many of today's Warrior fans grew up with Run TMC. They did't win shit, but they were fun and exciting to watch, and that became an acceptable style and tolerated result. It became "who the Warriors were", they're run-and-gunners, win-or-lose.


bob


.



I'm quoting my own post because this article by Mark Murphy of the Boston Herald refers to a point I made above, and that is that teams and players take on the persona of the cities they are from. According to this article, Doc agrees. I don't read the Herald as a rule, so I have no idea whether having Murphy agree with me is a good thing or a bad thing...

http://bostonherald.com/sports/celtics_nba/nba_coverage/2013/01/game%E2%80%99s_urban_legends



Game’s urban legends



Doc: Cities shape play




January 13, 2013

By Mark Murphy / Boston Herald



Though he won’t be ready for Friday’s visit by the Bulls to Boston, Derrick Rose is closing in on the most anticipated return by any NBA player this season.

Doc Rivers clearly prefers that Rose wait. But as a fellow Chicagoan, a certain local pride kicks in for the Celtics coach when talking about the player who is about to return Chicago to the league’s elite. Rose, as much as any of the Chicago stars before him, epitomizes the all-business ethic of that city.

“I always thought Chicago players, because I’m a Chicago kid, were very physical guards,” Rivers said last week. “Drivers, straight line guys. I look at Derrick Rose and laugh, because I can see the Chicago in him always. He’s straight business. There’s no flair to the Chicago players’ games. You win or lose. Maybe that’s from that park thing. When you watch Rose you see that thing completely.


“He may get a dunk, but you won’t (know) it from his reaction.”

Perhaps AAU basketball has homogenized the national landscape, but each American city seems to still have a unique footprint in the sport. Nothing says New York like the stylized game of a Connie Hawkins or Stephon Marbury. Paul Pierce’s cool speaks to Los Angeles.

The subject came up last week when Kevin Garnett started reminiscing about his one year of high school basketball in Chicago, where he played for Farragut Career Academy as a senior before moving on to the NBA.

The basketball Garnett grew accustomed to as an adolescent in South Carolina had an entirely different — perhaps softer — feel than what he encountered in Chicago. Of course, competition is going to carry an additional edge in any city.

But Rivers, one of Chicago’s most beloved players, believes those styles still exist.

His first exposure to the variety came in 1980, when as a high school senior he led Chicago’s entry in the Boston Shootout. It was arguably the greatest tournament field in the history of the event. Boston was led by Patrick Ewing, Karl Hobbs and Dwayne McClain. New York came in with Chris Mullin, and Chicago with Rivers.

And with each team came a distinctive way of playing the game.

Rivers could spend half the day listing the players from his hometown, and they all seemed to play the same way.

“Isiah (Thomas), you can go down the list,” Rivers said. “There’s a lot of guards like Maurice Cheeks. I don’t know other cities well, but New York is all about the flair; ballhandlers and over-dribblers.

“Actually, the Boston guards are physical guards. College coaches told me all of this stuff when they were recruiting (my son) Austin. They could tell different regions by how players play, and I never even thought about that.”

Style also depends on the position, though. Guards, due to the nature of the position, are more varied in style than the players up front.

“The bigs are different because they mostly don’t play when they’re young, or they just play because they’re big,” said Rivers. “I don’t think there’s a category in each city for bigs, so I always go guards. But bigs are bigs. Wherever they are, they’re good. You can’t grow them to be big. You can’t get that.”

Those straight-ahead drivers that Rivers remembers so well leave a different impression with Pierce, who comes from a city where the outside game is courted by better weather, and maybe a different kind of offense, too.

“Chicago players? They can’t shoot. What are you thinking about?” the C’s captain said with a laugh when asked about Garnett’s transformation. “KG was born in the South. But guys who grew up in Chicago can’t shoot. Shawn Marion, Tony Allen, Juwan Howard. They’re all great athletes. Dwyane Wade. Great athletes.

“I guess they carry an edge, coming from Chicago. KG was a country guy who has some city boy in him, so that’s what it takes. Chicago is not an easy place to grow up. You talk about inner city kids who grow up playing basketball, and go to the local parks, local YMCAs, the Boys and Girls Clubs. It’s not always easy to get on the court, either. Those are the types of places where a lot of people get their butts kicked.”

Then again, some parts of the city game are universal.





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