Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by worcester on Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:31 pm

Me too Rosale.

worcester

Posts: 2481
Join date: 2009-10-31
Age: 67

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by NYCelt on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:03 pm

Easier to respond in general rather than individually...

Pierce is my favorite Celtic. Sentiment aside he's a valuable asset to trade at this time. Contenders value his scoring skill, his contract makes him favorable for someone to take for a short time, and we're fighting just to climb past the eighth seed. We have a fast aging center and after that our best big is an undersized, albeit promising and fast learning rookie. We can remake ourselves to contend, and do so practically on the fly, if we take an opportunity when it's presented. We need a young big now and for the future. Pierce only has a year or two left, tops and KG has been referred to in some publications as "The human remains of Kevin Garnett." We could possibly have a chance to get stronger now by using Pierce's remaining value to help set the team up to take advantage of the type of game Rondo can run as the point. We might even be able to give Paul a run at a title somewhere as a parting gift. It's time.

No matter where his final games are played Pierce will be remembered as a Celtic, his number will take it's place in the rafters and he will be inducted to The Hall in Springfield.

Nothing personal to Paul, it's just business. And so far it's just a concept that needs to be viewed as such.

NYCelt

Posts: 4539
Join date: 2009-10-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:19 pm

I am sorry, I stand by my remarks, LOYALTY MEANS ALOT, maybe not to this generation, but it does to me, and I would lose a tremendous amount of respect for the Celtics if they did anything like trade Paul.

I wish Danny or Wyc would just come out and say that they are NOT going to trade Paul Pierce and get this over with.

RosalieTCeltics

Posts: 6364
Join date: 2009-10-17
Age: 67

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by NYCelt on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:09 pm

Rosalie,

Although you're the one person I nearly always agree with I'll differ on this one. Just for the record though, if in your comment about loyalty you're including me in the current generation; thanks! I can't accept the compliment, however, since I was born in 1959. Don't let my young son in the avatar fool you, I'm just a late starter.

Not for you alone, but for anyone who considers this idea a parting with old Celtic ways, it's hardly that at all. Red certainly did it. In a re-hash of a WBUR article from last season...

'In the spring of 1956, Celtics Coach and General Manager Red Auerbach reluctantly traded future Hall-of-Famers Ed Macauley and (draft pick) Cliff Hagan to St. Louis for the Hawks’ second round draft pick, Bill Russell. In 1957, the rookie lead Boston to its first ever NBA title.

The Hawks countered the following year by winning their first and only championship. In 1958, it appeared an even deal. But the Celtics, with Russell as their defensive anchor, captured the flag in each of the next eight seasons. They tacked on another two championships in the late 60′s just for good measure. Advantage: Celtics.'

How about trading away the popular and promising young Al Jefferson along with a bus load of other Celtics for a past-his-prime power forward? That worked out OK.

Examples from other teams and sports abound too. A great comparison I've seen in two other places debating this same topic already is the Dallas Cowboys trade of the popular and talented but getting older Herschel Walker for a bunch of draft picks that led to their titles in the 90's. Unfortunately my Bills were a part of that one.

What would Red do? If history is an indicator, what was best for the team.

I'm not saying I want Pierce to go, I'm just saying it makes sense and I understand if he does.

I'll go back to agreeing with you on everything else now!

Regards

NYCelt

Posts: 4539
Join date: 2009-10-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:38 am

nycelt

The East is wide open this year, every team has flaws, we just beat 4 playoff teams in a row and we can still play better as we are just finding ourselves with the arrival of AB. We just found ourselves, our mojo, we can win with Pierce and KG playing smaller minutes so that they are fresher for the really big games. These are 2 HoF players that know how to win and lead. We also have a raw athletic big man still honing his game ready to come up at some point at worst by next year. Suddenly I really feel we can get to the Finals this year, we match up well with Miami and the Knicks and the Bulls.....no team scares me, our defense with AB is scary fierce and good.

We will have defensive stud puppy AB and Courtney Lee going right at D Wade and Pierce and Jeff Green going at Lebron, and we are the faster deeper team. Since I feel we will gell further and get stronger as season wears longer, the bench parts can excel at their roles and be better and better....why mess up a possible Finals aspiration? I don't think Noah, D Howard or Tyson Chandler is stepping through that door for Paul Pierce.

cow

cowens/oldschool

Posts: 6577
Join date: 2009-10-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by tardust on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:25 am

The Celtics would sure miss this type of play if Pierce got traded. Not many players can/want to take these type shots.




tardust

Posts: 393
Join date: 2012-05-03

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by mrkleen09 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:00 am

I am not buying this argument NYCelt

Paul Pierce is still a game changer and on at least half the nights - he can carry a team for long stretches. Unless you can get a similar player in return, I say no deal.

Gortat would be a nice piece to add for example, but he is NOT ever going to be the go to guy - and when you are down by 2 with 14 seconds to go - he is NOT going to be the guy you feed the ball. Pierce has been for 15+ years and is still that guy when the games mean something.

What GM in his right mind would give the Celtics a young closer in exchange for a old closer (Pierce)?


mrkleen09

Posts: 2382
Join date: 2009-10-16
Age: 45

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by Outside on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:10 am

This is a tough one.

I completely understand the loyalty argument, that Pierce has earned the right to retire with the Celtics. But Pierce has been here a long, long time. A lot of Celtic Nation eviscerated Ray Allen for leaving; wouldn't it be equally justified to slam the team for trading Pierce? But do you compromise the future so that the past can have one more day in the sun?

If I was the other GM in the trade, I want some assurance that Pierce wouldn't just retire rather than put on another jersey, because I could see Pierce doing that.

I understand NYCelt's argument. It's a business, and if you can get a guy like Rudy Gay, who isn't as good but is still pretty good and is only 26 years old (compared to 35 for Pierce), then that's a good deal for the team in the long run.

Mrkleen is absolutely correct that Pierce is a consistent option when you need someone to create a shot at the end of a game, and those guys are few and far between. Numerous people here have complained about the Pierce iso offense at the end of games and how everyone else just stands around and watches, and I think that's a valid objection to a point, but sometimes you need that go-to guy, and Pierce is one of the few. But we also see Pierce play stretches where he looks reeeeeally old.

I also think cowens made a great point when he said, "we already have Rudy Gay on the roster, his name is Jeff Green."

It's a tough situation. At the end of the day, I'd be inclined to do a Pierce-Gay trade -- the allure of getting all those years of future service from Gay compared to Pierce is the key -- but I'd be surprised if Ainge is willing to be remembered as the guy who traded Paul Pierce.

Outside

Posts: 2332
Join date: 2009-11-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by dboss on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:32 am

Nycelt

The situations that you reference from the past did not really involve a team in contention.

Dboss


dboss

Posts: 2628
Join date: 2009-11-01

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by gyso on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:42 am

How does a team make an older-past-his-prime-guy for a younger-in-his-prime-guy trade? In the case of Rudy Gay, it is to eat gobs of salary in a salary dump.

We can't due to the so-called hard cap that we are under.

_________________

gyso

Posts: 5353
Join date: 2009-10-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by RosalieTCeltics on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:45 am

Think back two years when the Celtics traded Perk. Does anyone remember all the uproar over this trade. Perk had been here a while and had won the hearts of a lot of Celtic fans. To this day, trade talk is always talked about as to how this trade affected that team back then. What the heck do you think would happen with a Pierce trade?????????? I am sorry, Rudy Gay does not have the heart of Paul Pierce, if he did why would they be trading him? Isn't the purpose of all of this is to win a championship and build? I know the contract of Pierce is appealing to other teams, but it just doesn't change my mind.

NYCelt, back when the Celtics made that trade in 1956 they were just a hohum team, Give me a better trade than that, you are really drawing a
crazy line here.

Danny and Wyc, just end all of this by telling Celtic Nation that Pierce is NOT
available, please.

RosalieTCeltics

Posts: 6364
Join date: 2009-10-17
Age: 67

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by swish on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:51 pm

What constitutes a successfull season for this Celtic team? Making the playoffs?, the finals?, winning it all?. Depending on ones opinion of a successfull season its possible to come to different valid conclusions when it comes to making roster changes. For me with this team its win it all and I happen to believe that this team, as it now exist, has a slim chance of winning it all. And with Garnett and Pierce a year older next year I view their chances as even slimmer next year. There is also the possilbility that the Celtics could exercise their option in June to do a 5 million dollar buy out of Pierces contract. Because of my view regarding the present, Rudy Gay as part of the Celtics future is quite appealing to me. What makes for a successfull season for you?

Swish

swish

Posts: 616
Join date: 2009-10-16
Age: 82

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by NYCelt on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:56 pm

I wouldn't do it for Rudy Gay.

I would do it for a young 4/5 because the opportunity may best exist now, not later, and I don't think this team can make it out of the East as is.

I think it's a business decision to rebuild a contender.

There is some risk in any decision, but you sometimes have to be bold enough to do what's best for the future. The risk here is shooting a chance of this team getting to the finals. I don't think it can, so in my opinion the risk is low.

I would simply start making the changes we need while interest in what we have to offer may be highest. I like to deal from a position of strength in any deal I make and I think we are at our strongest in terms of interest right now.

I would have shopped Pierce last offseason (and I'll repeat, yet again, he's my favorite Celtic).

NYCelt

Posts: 4539
Join date: 2009-10-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:12 pm

nycelt in a perfect world what young 4/5 out there would you do the Pierce deal with?

cowens/oldschool

Posts: 6577
Join date: 2009-10-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by sam on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:33 pm

To all:

This is turning out to be one of the more interesting discussions I've seen on this board lately. Everyone has to be commended for tempering emotion with facts in addressing what is an inherently emotional subject. Whether Pierce stays or goes, what's at stake involves not only the SF position but, perhaps more important, the playing style of the entire team.

As the Celtics' small forward, his body of work speak for itself. Through the years, he has been a clutch performer. Through much of his career, he has been the Celtics' best (only?) slasher, and that has been a great go-to option when the chips were down. Lately, his game has changed, and he's become more of a jump shooter and arguably the best three-point threat the Celtics have. On a team that tends to live or die by the jump shot, that's a valuable role.

Most of the time over the years, Paul has been able to outperform his small forward counterpart on the other team. He's even been a surprisingly strong defensive player, at least in the clutch.

But things are changing—and the glimpses we get of Pierce when he has a sub-par game are disturbing. He’s no longer able to dominate consistently by being a whirling dervish in the paint. The conventional wisdom has always been that the game slows down for him, in the sense that he refuses to be rushed into making mistakes. But now, his game is slowing down in the sense of speed of execution, to the point where he’s having more difficulty getting separation and therefore having to rely more heavily on his wondrous ability to shoot in traffic with a hand in his face.

If one projects Paul’s recent production performance into the very near future, there are warning flags all over the place. His shooting percentage has plummeted dramatically in two years.:

Age 33: .497 FG %
Age 34: .443 FG %
Age 35: .436 FG %

One could argue that he’s scoring better than in either of the past two seasons:

Age 33: 19.6 points scored / 36 minutes
Age 34: 20.5 points scored / 36 minutes
Age 35: 21.3 points scored / 36 minutes

But the fact is that he’s now taking more shots and shooting more three-balls:

Age 33: 13.3 FGA / 36 minutes
Age 34: 15.4 FGA / 36 minutes
Age 35: 16.4 FGA / 36 minutes

Age 33: 3.9 3-pt. FGA / 36 minutes
Age 34: 4.7 3-pt. FGA / 36 minutes
Age 35: 5.6 3-pt. FGA / 36 minutes

Although I don’t have stats to prove it, I’ve noticed lately that, at the end of quarters, the Celtics are relying less on Pierce for the final shot than in earlier years. That chore is being spread among guys like Rondo, Lee, Terry, KG, and Green as well as Pierce.

Perhaps the one area that concerns me most this season is the offensive styles of play preferred by Pierce and Rondo have been almost diametrically opposed to one another. Paul’s game was always deliberate, and never more so than this season. Even when he’s playing uptempo, he tends to lope up the court rather than to run full-out. That’s not really a criticism because I believe he had to learn to pace himself back in the Celtics’ lean years; and old habits die hard, especially as one ages.

Rondo’s most proficient execution, from day one, has in transition. But the energy of this particular bunny often goes to waste as he frequently finds himself alone in the forecourt when he’s playing with the starters. In seven years with the Celtics, Pierce and Rondo have brought opposing offensive styles to the party and, to their credit, they’ve made it work about as well as one could expect. But, as Pierce ages, the mutual accommodations become much more difficult.

The Celtics’ style of play is best suited to (1) a roster full of complementary skills and (2) the ability of each player to maximize his performance of his unique skill(s). I don’t believe we’ve ever seen that formula in action since Rondo’s arrival, and the main source of dissonance involves the difference in styles of one leader (Pierce) and another leader (Rondo).

Now, let’s skip to defense. Over the years, Paul Pierce has consistently amazed me by coming up with great defensive performances, especially in big games. But opponents such as Lebron, Carmello Deng and Durant are all in their prime or entering it, while Paul’s going in the other direction. They’re all taller and faster than Pierce, and they can all shoot lights out. As things now stand, I’d rather see Jeff Green guarding them than Paul Pierce, especially in fourth quarter “fatigue time.”

When I started this post, I was determined to avoid controversy by presenting an equal number of positive and negative reflections on Paul Pierce. However, as the post unfolded and I looked objectively into the near future, there seemed to be more readily available negatives than positives.

However, Paul Pierce does represent an extremely important positive factor. He’s a true Celtic. No one is more intimate with the Celtics system than Paul is (maybe not even Doc). What he may lack in terms of stylistic harmony with Rondo, Paul makes up for with his uncanny ability to (as he says) give the game what it needs. Among all the players on the roster, he’s the Celtics’ “glue.” (And I mean that in terms of cohesiveness, not in terms of speed.)

This is why, after I’ve gone through a litany of pros and cons, my bottom line is that the Celtics should NOT trade Paul Pierce during the season and create more discontinuity just when the team seems to be coming together. Paul and Rondo have somehow coexisted, even if the results have not always been optimal. They can coexist a few more months, while allowing Jeff Green to gain more experience in playing SF for the Boston Celtics.

However, as soon as possible after the season, I would support the active shopping of Paul Pierce, but with one caveat. Paul deserves to be involved in that process, and the Celtics should refuse to allow him to end up where he wouldn’t want to end up.

The identity of player(s) and/or pick(s) for whom Paul might be traded would depend on the Celtics’ needs at the time of the trade. Based on my scenario of trading Paul only after this season’s playoffs, the matter of whether to trade Pierce for Gay would almost certainly become moot, because it appears that Gay will go somewhere soon.

I really don’t know a heck of a lot about Rudy Gay. However, I recently read an article entitled “Biggest Ballhogs in the NBA.” I don’t know the guy who wrote it, and I wouldn’t even have looked at it except that I skimmed it to make certain there were no Celtics on the list. (There weren’t.) There were probably only a half dozen of players mentioned, but one of them was Rudy Gay. (Insert sharp intake of breath here.) If anyone wants to read the piece:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1480438-biggest-ballhogs-in-the-nba

In closing, although Paul Pierce will never be among my favorite all-time Celtics, he’s been one hell of a soldier, and I’ll always be grateful to him for personally willing the Cs to at least one NBA Championship. I’m looking forward to seeing number 34 in the rafters and reading about Paul’s ascension to the Hall of Fame.

Go Celtics

Sam


Last edited by sam on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:37 pm; edited 4 times in total

sam
Admin

Posts: 17086
Join date: 2009-10-10

http://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by 112288 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:34 pm


AGAIN, I REPEAT

Danny is using Pierce only as a stalking horse to get feelers on who is and who is not in play and start dialog among teams. CALL IT BAIT AND SWITCH if you want. That is all that is going on:

IF AND IT IS A BIG IF..........Danny trades Pierce it would:

1) Not be for a 4/5. It would have to be for a small forward (3 position) to take Pierces place otherwise you now have a man short in the 3 position if you get a 4/5...so now you are forced to make another trade.

2) A team wanting Pierce would have to be be to a young playoff team trying to make some noise in the playoffs perhaps advance beyond the first round to attract their fan base and who's young players need veteran leadership to guide their young team. They would pay Pierce $12-15 million per year for the next 2-3 years to do just that. Celtics would never do that next year. Pierces contract only has a $4 million guarantee next year.

3) The type of player in a potential trade would be a young kid maybe 2/3 years in the NBA (Just like Green) who is a great young talent who can grow in a Celtic uniform and who can be a player for the Celtics for at least 4/5 years.

Should Danny do a trade if presented with a young ULTRA ULTRA TALENTED YOUNG PLAYER. I have to agree with NY Celt........yes....we all have to move on. Will this kind of opportunity present it self to Danny.......I HIGHLY DOUBT IT! But it makes for a fun debate on a boring Monday in mid January!

112288


Last edited by 112288 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:41 pm; edited 3 times in total

112288

Posts: 4465
Join date: 2009-10-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by MDCelticsFan on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:35 pm

If Ainge wants to ship Pierce off to be with ex-teammate Tony Allen in Memphis, he should be fishing for Zack Randolph or Marc Gasol. That is if he has no intention of trying to re-acquire Al Jefferson this coming Summer. Does anyone remember that Rudy Gay was beaten in '05's McDonalds High Scool slam dunk contest by Shelden Williams' wife Candace Parker!

MD!

MDCelticsFan

Posts: 1314
Join date: 2009-11-03
Age: 62

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by sam on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:17 pm

MD

I read, a couple of days ago (can't recall where) that Jefferson's defensive performance this season has been near the bottom of all the bigs in the league.

sam
Admin

Posts: 17086
Join date: 2009-10-10

http://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by worcester on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:44 pm

16.4 FGA per 36 minutes is still remarkably low considering how many points Paul scores. I've always admired how much Paul produces with how few attempts. Yes PP and RR's styles are not compatible. Still the marriage works.

worcester

Posts: 2481
Join date: 2009-10-31
Age: 67

Back to top Go down

Re: Celtics Making Pierce Available In Trade Talks

Post by NYCelt on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:52 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:nycelt in a perfect world what young 4/5 out there would you do the Pierce deal with?

Cow,

I'm not trying to single out anyone or even guess who might be available. I've learned over the years that the solution may not be obvious, and with the proliferation of multiple team trades many different players could come into play. I would simply entertain dealing Pierce at this time because teams feeling they're one scorer short of contending might make a move and give up the most right now.

I think I've beat this drum long enough today and I find I'm preaching and repeating myself again, so I'll move on.

Besides, you and I go back to around '03 or earlier; in all that time have you ever known me to look only at the comfortable solution or come up with a short answer to a direct question?

Regards

NYCelt

Posts: 4539
Join date: 2009-10-12

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum