POST GAME JAZZ

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Post by Outside Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:05 pm

For end-of-quarter shots, there's no excuse to not get something better than a contested fall-away jumper. Heinsohn's remark to "have a little confidence in your defense" is right on the money.

One point I'll add is that the strategy is situational. If it's a tie game and you have the ball, it's a prudent move to run the clock out with your attempt so that the worst that can happen is overtime. You certainly don't want to miss with time enough remaining for the opponent to get the rebound and move it to the front court with a time out (I hate that rule, by the way).

Sam, although your point about the Celtics being a team of scorers is correct to an extent, many players have difficulty taking that end-of-the-game shot. But that means that you don't want to put, say, Brandon Bass or Courtney Lee in an isolation position where they have to create their own shot. The best way to utilize that distributed scoring capability is to run plays that involve the entire team and have multiple options. In one sense, you could say it's running your offense, but you normally want to come up with a different wrinkle so that the defense can't key on stuff they've seen all game long, so it's normally a play that the coach draws up or that you have in your repertoire for that situation. Doc is particularly adept at that, so they should leverage that option more.

Pierce used to be able to mix jumpers with drives to the basket. His drives were pretty successful and also made the jumper a better option because the defense didn't know which way to play him. But the quickness has left him, it's almost always a jumper now, and the defense knows it. He makes them occasionally enough that he keeps his "legacy confidence" alive from years past when he used to be more reliable in that situation, but it's a mirage.

They used to do a fair amount of screen-roll with Pierce and Garnett, which I thought was pretty successful. I'm not sure why they don't still do that, because Pierce either used the screen to get a more open shot or Garnett was available for an open jumper. They ought to try the same thing with Green from time to time.

In any event, it's a puzzle why they isolate Pierce so much in those situations when they have better options available.
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Post by Sam Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:21 pm

Outside,

For the most part, I'm talking about the end of quarters and when the team is trailing or has at least a three-point lead at the end of the game. Obviously, the strategy concerning seconds on the clock is different when the score is tied.

Yes, I think Doc is recognized fairly for his ability to draw up plays—out of timeouts especially. However, if he's drawing up a diversity of promising plays at the end of quarters, there's something missing between the planning and the execution.

Actually, I believe it could be one of the best things in the world for Bass and Lee to share occasionally in the shooting responsibility at the end of quarters. In fact, I'd like to
see Pierce be the decoy who gets them the ball in some situations. I'd much rather see Lee or Bass shoot an open shot than to see Pierce shoot a hotly contested jumper. In fact, with respect to Lee, he has a high-percentage mid-range jumper (45% from 16 to 23 feet) plus the ability to slash to the hoop better than Pierce now does.

I don't want to send anyone into a frenzy by mentioning earlier Celtics teams. However, I'd be willing to bet that the Russell and Cowens teams(someone else can speak for the Bird teams) scored on a much higher proportion of their quarter-ending plays than this team does. And the reason was that they ran their regular offense with enough options to keep from becoming predictable. They weren't ill-advised enough to select a scheme (iso) that's never been a Celtics strength and has become even
less so as Pierce has slowed down.

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Post by Outside Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:49 am

sam wrote:Actually, I believe it could be one of the best things in the world for Bass and Lee to share occasionally in the shooting responsibility at the end of quarters. In fact, I'd like to
see Pierce be the decoy who gets them the ball in some situations. I'd much rather see Lee or Bass shoot an open shot than to see Pierce shoot a hotly contested jumper. In fact, with respect to Lee, he has a high-percentage mid-range jumper (45% from 16 to 23 feet) plus the ability to slash to the hoop better than Pierce now does.
I think if you read my post again, you'll see that we agree. I said that you don't want to put Bass or Lee in an isolation position where they have to create their own shot but instead involve all the players, including Bass and Lee, in non-isolation plays.

What is most bothersome about relying on Pierce isolations at the end of games is that will be what they defer to come playoff time. If they ran plays during the regular season that gave other guys -- Lee and Green in particular -- some of those opportunities, they'd be more comfortable with those same opportunities in the postseason. But time is growing short to work those types of plays in, so I'm not optimistic at this point that it will happen.

All things considered, Doc has deferred to the non-KG/Pierce supporting cast for much of the team's offensive load, and that's the main thing. Quibbling about what they do in those few end-of-game situations that arise is minor in comparison.
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Post by gyso Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:08 am

I remember discussing Glen Davis' new-found mid range jumper during the regular season a few years back. Another poster said that perhaps Davis should work on his post moves because he wouldn't want to rely on a Glen Davis jumper for an end of game scenario. Glen Davis did continue to work on his jumper and it got more consistant as the year went on.

Fast-forward to the playoffs later that season. Glen did take a late end of game mid range jumper, from the left side of the court. Game winner!! That was the time where Davis nearly ran down a small child on the sidelines as he ran happily down the court.

I for one was glad that Glen Davis did not listen to the nay-sayers and continued to improve his game. His shot was not the result of an isolation play where Davis held the ball for the last 7-8 seconds, it was the result of a pass to an open player. We have plenty of players who can shoot jump shots when they are open.

I agree that it is time to get other players involved at these end of quarter and after a time out scenarios. You never know how that will play out in the future, but it may pay off at just the right time.

gyso


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Post by tardust Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:38 am

Sam,
I was not talking about end of games on the whole. I was talking about the one instance. Which I Doc wanted to make sure there was only one shot taken.
I am in no way saying I like our shots at the end of games all the time. The thing is other teams know pretty much what is coming as well. Passing gets a lot hard and the turnover comes into play.
I do believe PP does exactly as Doc instructs in those situations, but for some reason it comes off as hero ball when it happens. Not so.
Again I lay it all on Doc, and I agree I would like to see some ball movement and see what we come up with.
I actually listen to other teams announcers a lot more than the C's guys, believe me those guys are scared to death to see Pierce in that situation.
I was just pointing out that usually the other teams best defender is there, and you have a window of just a few seconds to shot a ball. I would rather us err on giving the other team no time as all than err on the side where they have 4-5 seconds. Very fine line in those instances.
As far as Lee and Bass sharing getting shots at the end of game. Lee I wouldn't mind at all because he can create. Bass I have not desire to see the ball in his hands at the end of a game because he can't create for himself or others. He has to be left open and for the most part that isn't going to happen. Just read you were talking about end of quarters. I guess I still have the same opinion.
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Post by mrkleen09 Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:32 am

I would like to know one team in the NBA that does not run pick and roll or some semblance of isolation with 1 minute left in a tied game?

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Post by Outside Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:16 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:I would like to know one team in the NBA that does not run pick and roll or some semblance of isolation with 1 minute left in a tied game?
Isolation is certainly the crutch that most coaches depend on, but I can think of one example of a team that has taken a different route -- the Warriors. I haven't seen all their games by any stretch, but I've seen them on multiple occasions run plays and sets that involve the entire team in those situations. There's the relatively notable case of their game against Miami in Miami where they ran a play that ultimately wound up with (I believe) Draymond Green getting a layup after slipping a screen and going unguarded to the basket. I've also seen them run action with picks at both "elbows" (the sides of the free-throw line). Perhaps they do run isolations that I haven't seen, but the non-isolations are what come to mind.

And as Sam said, the Russell Celtics also come to mind, as should most teams from "back in the day." They may have run plays to get their best scorers the ball with a good shot opportunity, but it wasn't "give the ball to my perimeter scorer and get out of the way" that we've seen so prevalent since, oh, Michael Jordan maybe? Bird may have been the guy to take a lot of those shots, but I remember it as them running plays to get him the ball, not just iso.

It may be that other coaches or teams don't rely on iso today but we just don't watch them to know. I'd be interested to know how much Adelman does it, but it's not like I watch a lot of Timberwolves games (or Houston games when he was there) and remember what they do during those few times the situation arises. For some teams, it may be a matter of whether you have a truly elite scorer. If you've got a guy like Carmelo, Wade, Durant, or Kobe, iso is at least an option, while many teams in the league don't have that kind of player. (A lot of guys may think they're that kind of player, but they're not.) If you're the Clippers, you give the ball to Chris Paul and let him break down the defense to pass the ball to an open shooter or take the shot himself. If you're Portland, you might have that option now with Damian Lilliard, but LeMarcus Aldridge or Nicholas Batum aren't great at creating their own shot in isolation, so it would be interesting to see what they've done.

I don't even consider pick and roll all that bad. Heck, it's a play. It has multiple options. I think the Celtics could use it and be more successful than clear-out isolations for Pierce.
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Post by Sam Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Tardust,

Other than at the end of tie games, I want to see them shoot out of their normal offense with 4 or 5 seconds on the clock, have three big guys crash the boards, and have two guys hang back to harass the opponents if they get a rebound.

At the end of quarters, I seldom see a rebounding team take a timeout with 2-3 seconds left on the clock because only during the last 2 minutes of the game can they advance the ball to the forecourt with a timeout.

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