maybe next game we should try......

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Post by kdp59 Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:34 am

to get behind by 10-15 after the FIRST quarter!

I don't mind losing to Cleveland, that's expected. But blowing BIG leads after big leads in games is un acceptable.

Rondo is the team captain and he had the ball at the end, if he can't finish he's not worth a max deal period.

guys who get the top money WANT the ball with the game on the line and FINISH. Time to step up Rondo.

rest of the team have deer eyes in the fourth, no one wants the ball.

if we had Smart we might have pulled it out, at least the King would been hammered a few times as he took over the game.Though Green did TRY to do it a few times, just doesn't have the body to absorb the contact from a football player.

we keep losing games we should have won, pretty soon I am going to start blaming the coaching staff.
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Post by Berlin-T Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:43 am

Blame the players.
After three quarters of beautiful pace and movement they slowed down giving Cleveland time to set up their defense. All players are to blame, but especially Rondo. He played absolutely brilliantly for three quarters staying in the system. In the fourth quarter it was back to Rondo ball. And dribbling the ball until the shot clock went of when a two point shot would have won the game - WTH was that?

One can only hope that all of them will learn from this. After all, just a short time ago they could only keep the pace up for one quarter. So three quarters of fast break ball is an improvement. We just need to get to four quarters of run, run, run and pass, pass, pass and we'll be alright. I know it's possible - I remember the Russell/Havlicek, Cowens/Havlicek teams doing it night after night through the season, the playoffs right to the championship(s).
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Post by beat Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:21 am

Berlin-T wrote:Blame the players.
After three quarters of beautiful pace and movement they slowed down giving Cleveland time to set up their defense. All players are to blame, but especially Rondo. He played absolutely brilliantly for three quarters staying in the system. In the fourth quarter it was back to Rondo ball. And dribbling the ball until the shot clock went of when a two point shot would have won the game - WTH was that?

One can only hope that all of them will learn from this. After all, just a short time ago they could only keep the pace up for one quarter. So three quarters of fast break ball is an improvement. We just need to get to four quarters of run, run, run and pass, pass, pass and we'll be alright. I know it's possible - I remember the Russell/Havlicek, Cowens/Havlicek teams doing it night after night through the season, the playoffs right to the championship(s).

That and some stupid fouls on Bradley. Yeah Irving had gotten hot but fouling him on a three attempt was nuts. Also the foul that bailed out a deep baseline attempt as the shot clock was about to expire......bailed them out both times.

BUT not even getting a shot off with 7 seconds left is .............inexcusable ( i'd love to use a profanity in front of that)

We showed we can play with anyone. (for 36 minutes) Why we slowed??
As for blaming the coaches?? Last I checked the box score he didn't play.
He can yell scream (neither is his nature at least during a game) he can sub, he can call time outs and talk to them. BUT they are the ones on the floor that have to put it into action.

This fold/loss is NOT on anyone but the players.

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Post by cowens/oldschool Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:10 am

NO go to guy, shoulda went to Sully, groom him to be that guy....its not Rondo.

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Post by dboss Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:18 pm

There were two things that happened in the 4th qtr that I think had the biggest impact on the final score.

Irving got red hot and knocked down 3 straight 3 point shots.  One of those shots was so perfect that I did not even know it went in.  To compound the problem he gets fouled taking another 3 and makes all 3 free throws.  He added another 2 free throws to finish the 4th having scored 14 points.  That outburst in the first half of the 4th turned the momentum in favor of Cleveland.  Throw in 2 driving layups for Marion, a three pointer from Harris and the game was a 3 point contest with Lebron poised to close it out with 8 points in the last two minutes of the game.

The other main factor is the 7 turnovers accumulated by the Celtics in the 4th QTR.  There is no one player responsible.  They ended the game with a total of 14 turnovers and unfortunately half of them took place in the 4th.

When a team is struggling on offense during a stretch of any game, they must rely on their defense to win.  Scoring 121 points while shooting 55% from the field, playing even on the glass (39 rebounds to 40 rebounds), winning the battle in the paint (60 points vs 56 points) is a formula for winning most games.  Most of the work in front of them is on the defensive side of the ball.

Is it too early to say the we missed Marcus Smart?  

The Celtics will be well served to pay more attention to protecting their lead by protecting the ball and digging in on defense without making stupid fouls.  There is no pace when you give up the ball.

There are more glimmers coming out of this game.

Kelly Olynyk continues to improve in all phases of the game.  He is now making plays out of space and his shooting has been unreal (60% from the field and 48% from behind the arc)  The Celtics will need to get him the ball more.

The Celtics have turned into a team that can score a lot of points.  They are definitely on the right track.

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Post by dboss Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:13 pm

Examining the last play of the game.

KO passed the ball to Sully on the left side top of the key.

Sully passes to Rondo  to the right side of the key and sets a pick on Marion. Rondo was being closely guarded by Joe Harris.

At that point the only Celtics player that is open for a pass is Jeff Green who drifted toward the right corner at the start of the play. Lebron is keeping an eye on protecting a drive and sliding over to cover Green.

The play is developing into a pick and role.

Unfortunately Marion comes off the pick and checks Rondo while Sully struggles to disengage himself from Harris.  Sully is not able to get open for a pass.  

Jeff moves from the corner area and is looking for the pass but Rondo ignores that option.  

Marion is long and active and was able to prevent Rondo from getting off a good shot.

The Cavs played great defense and covered all the bases during the play.

Overall this was not a good play because there were not enough options.

When the play began both Bradley and Green were in the paint and they went to opposite sides of the corner while Kelly passed the ball in and remained on the left side of the perimeter.  There were NO cuts to the rim.  The entire team was on the perimeter.

The best option during that play was for Rondo to pass the ball out to Jeff Green for a long jump shot which would have beee contested by Lebron James.

In a one point game we could not get the ball inside because of a poorly executed pick and roll.

Want to blame the players?  I thought this was a combination of poor execution combined with a play that had too few options.

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Post by sinus007 Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:21 pm

Hi,
I agree - the loss of a quite winnable game is on the whole team including Brad. But the last minute or so, especially the last play of the game (7 seconds) is on RR. Lebron, the best defender on their team, decided to cover Rondo (should've been expected - it's happened before, it'll happen again) which meant that JG and/or AB (the 2 players that can create their own shot) weren't covered that much. So, the question is why the worst shooter on the floor ended up with the ball? The least they could do is to pull the same play as did last year against Miami.

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Post by dboss Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:41 pm

Sinus Lebron was not on Rondo the last play of the game

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Post by NYCelt Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:47 pm

Poor play calling by the coach.

Poor shot selection by the players.

Horrible positioning and spacing on both ends.

Mainly and especially in the 4th quarter for all of the above.

The team is learning some hard lessons.  Hopefully, they do learn quickly from this.
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Post by kdp59 Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:54 pm

well, we do play Philly soon

maybe we can eek a win out if all goes well.
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Post by Sam Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Definitely a lot of pain to go around.  I didn't see the game (I'm finally home from our trip and have handcuffed myself to the television set) but this is one case in which the play-by-play adequately conveys the reasons for the frustration..  Frankly, I don't mind the loss so much as the fact that this was another opportunity for them to demonstrate a little growth by coming through at the end.  I mean, wasting a 42 point quarter has to qualify as mind-boggling.

Does anyone know what the last play was designed to be?  As I understand it, Sully, Kelly, Jeff, Avery and Rondo were in there at the end.  I don't like that lineup when you have seven seconds left and you must absolutely get at least two points in a home game.

The reason I don't like that lineup is because, although Sully, Kelly, Avery and Rondo all can score, I don't believe one of those four has a reliable go-to move in the clutch.  You know, a move that's so dependable the other team can even anticipate it and still can't stop it without fouling.

In that situation, the ball must go to the hoop.  Period!  Jeff's the only one of those five who can slash with power and hit freebies if he's fouled.  What's he doing drifting off to the corner?  That's away from the basket.Post him up, for Pete's sake.  How about a double post with Zeller, who may not be their best player but who does have a go-to move called a pick and roll.  Perfect for that situation.  Get Bradley out of there.  Yes he can score, but he's pretty much a one trick pony—not much of a threat to go to the hoop unless there's an opportunity for him to drive into traffic.  For my money, replace Avery with Thornton, who can definitely take it to the hoop, shoot foul shots, and represent a last ditch threat from outside if necessary.  Get at least three guys out there who can take it to the rack (four if you want to include Rondo and pray he doesn't get fouled).  Kelly's okay to have out there because he adds passing ability and can also take the ball inside and hit freebies.

Zeller, Kelly, Green, Thornton, Rondo.  A "we desperately need a basket" five.

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Post by sinus007 Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:55 am

Dboss,
My bad. I was so disappointed I didn't really pay attention.

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Post by dboss Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:16 am

Sam

I described the play as best I could. I reviewed the play frame by frame, over and over again.

It is very revealing. It was a pick and roll or pick and pop. The first problem was that the ball went to Sully first. Should have went to Rondo first. Sully's pick was useless. Just a poor set up.

Rondo should have passed the ball to Jeff Green because the Cavs blew up the P & R.

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Post by Sam Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:57 pm

dboss,

Thanks for the response.  I think Zeller's better than Sully at the pick-and-roll, so I believe Tyler should have been in there.  From your description, it seems Jeff was open and didn't get the ball, although I'd have preferred Jeff to be posted up, only one dribble away from the hoop, than being in the corner with a lot of picket fences between him and the hoop.  I still like the idea of a double post play with Zeller and Green.

Reminds me of the famous incident when Magic held the ball as time ran out in what I believe was a Lekers playoff game.

Whoever screwed up—and there definitely had to be a screwup that could have involved anyone from Brad to any of the players on the floor, there's some major work to be done on getting on the same page.  There's absolutely no excuse for everyone's not being on the same page for the final play of a game.

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:52 pm

The blame goes all around here, I said that the other night. 19 point lead, awful defense, sloppy offense, and I hate to say it, HERO BALL. Rondo took a three point shot the second to last time the court, rushed the shot, and it was terrible. The last shot, he could not (or did not) find the open man, he was setting himself up for a shot. Green should have gotten that ball, period. Make it or not, at least get a shot off with 7 seconds left on the clock. I hate to say it, but Cleveland had them befuddled!

I am not a Rondo basher, I love the guy, but he was mainly the reason they did not get the shot off.

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Post by Shamrock1000 Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:00 am

This is a pattern since last year - it almost seems statistically impossible that the outcomes so consistently go against the Celtics. I like a lot of what Brad has done with the team, but objectively, when teams lose so many close contests at the end of games, you have to wonder about the coaching.

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:51 am

I hate saying this, but that was one BIG strong suit of Doc Rivers. Even the players always said his last play drawups were unbelievable. I just think Brad has got to get this down better. Actually, the play last night where Green missed the jumpshot was a perfect play, the only thing is the ball did not go thru the net!

I keep saying it to myself, BABY STEPS. But, darn, there are two, maybe even three games they should have won.

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Post by kdp59 Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:50 pm

well my "strategy" of getting behind early ALMOST worked!!!.......LOL.

seriously, I can take a game where we lose close, i chaulk that down to being a young team or having a bit less over all talent on the roster.

but those games where we are blowing teams out into the third quarter and we lose at the end....man those KILL me.

SO I do hope for my own sanity that Stevens keeps up the "play from behind" game plans.
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Post by k_j_88 Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:01 pm

I find it funny how the coaching staff seems to get a pass every time around.

I try not to sit there and blame an entire loss on one player because it's shortsighted. You win and lose as a team. This is a team game, right?

Mental toughness is the last remaining aspect that this team needs to develop. It's probably the most difficult part. But at some point, you'll have to pull out a close win.



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Post by Outside Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:29 pm

In the two recent losses, the end of game performance was NOT good. My take is that they should've made plays earlier in the game to avoid being in that position, but that doesn't excuse poor performance with a chance to win the game.

In both situations, it didn't look like the coaches put together a good play. If a good play was drawn up, then the execution was awful. In the Suns game, why does Bradley have the ball as the decision maker? A cross-court pass that was easily stolen by Bledsoe was pretty much the expected result. Green got off a good three-point shot that went in and out. Then came the last gasp, with a gift from Phoenix wasted when Rondo couldn't make a free throw. (Two for 10 in the game? Really?)

The game before, Rondo ran out the clock, but even if he hadn't fumbled the ball, what exactly was the plan -- to have Rondo do a Paul Pierce impression and sink a jumper at the buzzer? Again, if that was the designed play, it was awful, and if that wasn't the play, the execution was awful.

It's a shame, because their inability to execute at the end detracts from the good things they did leading up to that point.
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Post by Sam Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:35 pm

Outside,

I've always said (especially when people were ragging on referees for last minute calls) that a good team never should let itself get into position for a blown call or two (or, in this case, a blown play or two) make the difference between winning or losing.  This year, maybe the usual guidelines do not apply, at least in terms of making a win the ultimate goal.  But there's no excuse for sloppy execution on Rondo's part in two consecutive games.  I have to believe that, even with his faults such as poor free throw shooting, he has the ability to run a play that was clearly called in the huddle.  And there also should have been an alternate play called in the huddle in case there was the need to "call an audible."

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:53 pm

You have to admit, that sloppy pass by Bradley was inexcusable.i could have jumped through the screen and whacked him!!! He is a veteran, he knows better than yo make a pass like that.

You are right though, they should not have been in that position anyway. Sloppy play let the Suns build up a lead and then, all of a sudden they realized they were going to lose again. Too little, too late

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Post by Sam Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:01 pm

Rosalie,

That play made me sick too.  My concern is that, in fact, Bradley does not know better than to make a pass like that.  He might know it intellectually; but, during the course of the action, his instincts tend to be scarily poor.  I realize many people are in love with the defense Avery used to inflict on other teams, but I actually see his shooting as being of greater value than his defense as things stand right now.  And I view his shooting as pretty much being that of a one trick jumper.  Not a major penetration thread.

Moreover, if Brad really wants more of a motion offense, he'll need players who can handle the ball with at least some degree of dexterity.  Sorry, Avery fans, but he ain't that player.  And to those rooting for Perk's return, I say, "Ditto."

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Post by Outside Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:41 pm

Bradley shares some blame for that pass, but not all of it. Why did he have the ball in first place? He's not a creator off the dribble or superior assist man -- they have one of those, and he should've been the guy with the ball. Then, once Bradley did have the ball, there was no player movement, no cutters or guys coming off screens to deliver the ball to. Whoever was the intended target of the pass was just standing there, and Bledsoe astutely plucked the ball out of the passing lane that he left ostensibly open. Bradley was desperate to do something, and no one was doing anything to give him an option. He still shouldn't have made the pass, but somebody needed to help him out.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:02 pm

Why does he need to be helped? hes a veteran pro and should be able to create his own shot or create for others, not throw a boneheaded pass like that. Tony Allen makes a boneheaded play here and there, but he also does enough to impact the game with his defense and hustle, so you put up with it. It seems AB never gets calls or is getting alot of ticky tack calls against him and I am concerned because his defense is not nearly as effective as seasons past.

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