What stats show a good rim protector big man?

Here's overall real plus minus for centers, perhaps the single most important stat:

RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WAR
1 DeMarcus Cousins SAC 59 34.1 1.38 4.76 6.14 10.89
2 Zaza Pachulia MIL 73 23.7 1.34 3.56 4.90 7.76
3 Tyson Chandler DAL 75 30.5 1.22 3.52 4.74 10.22
4 Andrew Bogut GS 67 23.6 -1.34 5.59 4.25 6.69
5 Marc Gasol MEM 81 33.2 1.76 2.29 4.05 10.39
6 DeAndre Jordan LAC 82 34.4 2.07 1.85 3.92 11.12
7 Kelly Olynyk BOS 64 22.3 1.83 1.75 3.58 5.34
8 Tiago Splitter SA 52 19.8 0.75 2.67 3.42 3.66
9 Marcin Gortat WSH 82 29.9 -0.43 2.77 2.34 7.10
10 Timofey Mozgov CLE/DEN 81 25.3 -0.42 2.68 2.26 5.91
11 Jusuf Nurkic DEN 62 17.8 -1.70 3.95 2.25 3.28
12 Rudy Gobert UTAH 82 26.3 -1.65 3.64 1.99 5.56
13 Al Horford ATL 76 30.5 0.67 1.05 1.72 5.75
14 Dwight Howard HOU 41 29.8 0.07 1.54 1.61 3.05
15 Kosta Koufos MEM 81 16.6 -2.55 3.73 1.18 2.93
16 Robin Lopez POR 59 27.8 -0.73 1.79 1.06 3.48
17 Joel Anthony DET 49 8.3 -1.82 2.69 0.87 0.80
18 Andre Drummond DET 82 30.5 -0.09 0.83 0.74 4.75
19 Chris Bosh MIA 44 35.4 0.69 -0.01 0.68 2.82
20 Hassan Whiteside MIA 48 23.8 -0.97 1.65 0.68 2.10
21 Tristan Thompson CLE 82 26.8 1.63 -0.97 0.66 3.98
22 Joakim Noah CHI 67 30.6 -1.38 2.02 0.64 3.76
23 Tyler Zeller BOS 82 21.1 -0.79 1.39 0.60 3.27
24 Nikola Pekovic MIN 31 26.3 -0.50 0.99 0.49 1.45
25 Roy Hibbert IND 76 25.3 -2.47 2.44 -0.03 2.70
26 Boris Diaw SA 81 24.5 -0.36 0.27 -0.09 2.75
27 Alexis Ajinca NO 68 14.1 -1.00 0.89 -0.11 1.27
28 Aron Baynes SA 70 16.0 -1.22 1.09 -0.13 1.57
29 Chuck Hayes TOR 29 8.8 -0.33 0.10 -0.23 0.34
30 Joel Freeland POR 48 12.9 -1.76 1.48 -0.28 0.79
31 Brook Lopez BKN 72 29.2 -0.68 0.23 -0.45 2.41
32 Mason Plumlee BKN 82 21.3 -0.23 -0.26 -0.49 1.95
33 Dewayne Dedmon ORL 59 14.3 -2.80 2.21 -0.59 0.92
34 Jonas Valanciunas TOR 80 26.2 -1.72 1.05 -0.67 2.18
35 Alex Len PHX 69 22.0 -2.89 2.18 -0.71 1.62
36 Meyers Leonard POR 55 15.4 -2.36 1.63 -0.73 0.86
37 Ian Mahinmi IND 61 18.8 -3.22 2.48 -0.74 1.14
38 Gorgui Dieng MIN 73 30.0 -1.49 0.62 -0.87 2.03
39 Al Jefferson CHA 65 30.6 -1.48 0.59 -0.89 1.78
40 Bismack Biyombo CHA 64 19.4 -2.58 1.59 -0.99 1.02

And here is Offensive real plus minus for centers:

RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WAR
1 DeAndre Jordan LAC 82 34.4 2.07 1.85 3.92 11.12
2 Kelly Olynyk BOS 64 22.3 1.83 1.75 3.58 5.34
3 Marc Gasol MEM 81 33.2 1.76 2.29 4.05 10.39
4 Tristan Thompson CLE 82 26.8 1.63 -0.97 0.66 3.98
5 DeMarcus Cousins SAC 59 34.1 1.38 4.76 6.14 10.89
6 Zaza Pachulia MIL 73 23.7 1.34 3.56 4.90 7.76
7 Tyson Chandler DAL 75 30.5 1.22 3.52 4.74 10.22
8 Enes Kanter OKC/UTAH 75 28.5 1.12 -3.88 -2.76 -0.55
9 Tiago Splitter SA 52 19.8 0.75 2.67 3.42 3.66
10 Chris Bosh MIA 44 35.4 0.69 -0.01 0.68 2.82
11 Al Horford ATL 76 30.5 0.67 1.05 1.72 5.75
12 Marreese Speights GS 76 15.9 0.29 -1.44 -1.15 0.96
13 Dwight Howard HOU 41 29.8 0.07 1.54 1.61 3.05
14 Amar'e Stoudemire DAL/NY 59 21.1 -0.04 -1.10 -1.14 0.90
15 Andre Drummond DET 82 30.5 -0.09 0.83 0.74 4.75
16 Mason Plumlee BKN 82 21.3 -0.23 -0.26 -0.49 1.95
17 Chuck Hayes TOR 29 8.8 -0.33 0.10 -0.23 0.34
18 Boris Diaw SA 81 24.5 -0.36 0.27 -0.09 2.75
19 Timofey Mozgov CLE/DEN 81 25.3 -0.42 2.68 2.26 5.91
20 Marcin Gortat WSH 82 29.9 -0.43 2.77 2.34 7.10
21 Nikola Pekovic MIN 31 26.3 -0.50 0.99 0.49 1.45
22 Brook Lopez BKN 72 29.2 -0.68 0.23 -0.45 2.41
23 Robin Lopez POR 59 27.8 -0.73 1.79 1.06 3.48
24 Tyler Zeller BOS 82 21.1 -0.79 1.39 0.60 3.27
25 Jeff Withey NO 37 7.0 -0.86 -0.71 -1.57 0.12
26 Lucas Nogueira TOR 6 3.8 -0.92 -0.34 -1.26 0.02
27 Hassan Whiteside MIA 48 23.8 -0.97 1.65 0.68 2.10
28 Alexis Ajinca NO 68 14.1 -1.00 0.89 -0.11 1.27
29 Reggie Evans SAC 47 16.3 -1.07 -0.07 -1.14 0.56
30 Nazr Mohammed CHI 23 5.6 -1.21 -0.13 -1.34 0.08
31 Aron Baynes SA 70 16.0 -1.22 1.09 -0.13 1.57
32 Greg Stiemsma TOR 17 3.9 -1.25 -0.65 -1.90 0.02
33 Andrew Bogut GS 67 23.6 -1.34 5.59 4.25 6.69
34 Joakim Noah CHI 67 30.6 -1.38 2.02 0.64 3.76
35 Matt Bonner SA 72 13.0 -1.43 -2.55 -3.98 -0.94
36 Al Jefferson CHA 65 30.6 -1.48 0.59 -0.89 1.78
37 Nikola Vucevic ORL 74 34.2 -1.48 -0.34 -1.82 0.84
38 Gorgui Dieng MIN 73 30.0 -1.49 0.62 -0.87 2.03
39 Rudy Gobert UTAH 82 26.3 -1.65 3.64 1.99 5.56
40 Jusuf Nurkic DEN 62 17.8 -1.70 3.95 2.25 3.28

Real plus minus is undoubtedly a flawed stat like every other stat, but it's certainly a very important one, and perhaps THE most important one.

If a team simply plays very well while player x is on the floor, or the team plays very poorly while they are on the floor, what could matter more?

Andre Drummond has a reputation as a defensive monster, but he plays without discipline, heart, and intelligence. He's also admitted that he sometimes misses bunnies on purpose so he can improve his rebounding stats.

So it's not a huge surprise that Drummond would rank very low in defensive real plus minus, even if it is a bit of a surprise that he ranks rock bottom.

The biggest flaw of real plus minus is probably that you cannot fully separate a player's performance from that of his teammates, especially when a player plays in one consistent role all season.

For instance, we wouldn't expect DeAndre Jordan to have the highest offensive real plus minus in the league, or Kelly Olynyk to have the second best offensive real plus minus.

Both players played in very consistent roles: DeAndre as a starter alongside CP3, Blake, and Reddick, three outstanding offensive players.

And KO came off the bench almost every game, the last couple dozen of which were alongside ultimate 6th man Isaiah Thomas.

And KO playing more against bench players than starters would make him look better than if he was a starter.

But it's a very useful stat none-the-less.

Our starting power forward, Brandon Bass, ranked near the very bottom of the league in real plus minus among power forwards:

54 Brandon Bass BOS 82 27.6 -1.49 -0.43 -1.92 - .61

Jared Sullinger, our talented youngster with conditioning, attitude, and injury concerns, comes in well ahead of Bass at:
23 Jared Sullinger BOS 74 27.6 -0.25 1.58 1.33 4.69

But given all of Sullinger's red flags, and the fact that he's a free agent to be next summer, and the fact that quality power forwards are a less-rare commodity than quality centers, we may be looking at the wrong position (center) in our search for roster improvements.

Zeller and KO are both solid centers, and they're both young and getting better/stronger/smarter/more skilled/more confident.

When you consider that quality power forwards are generally more plentiful than quality centers, and the fact that we already have two quality centers, along with Sullinger who can play center at a roughly average level, Danny may want to look for an upgrade at power forward first, and he can look for the same traits we've been looking for at center: defense, rim protection, and rebounding.

this stat is on espn by the way. I can't link because I'm a new poster. You might need to do a google search of "nba real plus minus" to find it.

They list Evan Turner as a shooting guard, rather than small forward, but the real plus minus numbers do not look good for Turner. 45th among shooting guards:

45 Evan Turner BOS 82 27.6 -1.10 -0.26 -1.36 1.41

Jae Crowder, listed as a SF, doesn't stand out at all:
32 Jae Crowder BOS/DAL 82 20.1 0.58 -1.07 -0.49 1.94

Clearly, our small forward position could use an upgrade, and Crowder may or may not be worth the 7-9 million it might take to retain him.

Jeff Green, who often passed the eye test and was considered by many to be our second best player last year, comes out looking terrible in real plus minus among small forwards:

76 Jeff Green BOS/MEM 78 31.5 -1.54 -2.35 -3.89 -2.35

And Tobias Harris, rumored to be a big money free agent target of Danny Ainge, doesn't look much better:

57 Tobias Harris ORL 68 34.8 -0.34 -2.21 -2.55 -0.29

Marcus Smart finished an impressive 12th among point guards, and would have been 13th among shooting guards if listed there. For a rookie, that's amazing.

Isaiah Thomas finished 20th among point guards, and Avery Bradley, listed among point guards for some reason, was tied for 31st among shooting guards, tied with the aging DWade.

Ranking our needs by position is tricky, because of the unorthodox roles played by our starters.
Our point guard, Smart, mostly played off the ball, and our small forward, Turner, was usually our point guard.
And our shooting guard, Bradley, usually guarded point guards, while our shooting guard, Smart usually defended shooting guards and defended that position significantly better than point guards. This is an important last point, because simply sliding Bradley out of the starting lineup would be a clear defensive downgrade at PG with Smart defending that position full time and against the hyper athletic starting point guards.

But to my eye, Smart is clearly an above average shooting guard already, and makes a great secondary ball handler already. And Bradley is solid if not spectacular.

So ranking positions of need is very tricky indeed. You could say we're set at point guard, but you could also say we could very much use a starting point guard who can shoot, and who can play above average defense, bumping Bradley from the lineup.

Adding such a player, while not easy to get, would also eliminate our need to start Turner at Small forward, where he clearly is not even an average starting player.

But acquiring quality point guards and small forwards is definitely easier than acquiring centers who would be a real upgrade over Zeller and KO.

Without giving it too much thought, I'd view our positional draft needs as:

1) Small Forward: Crowder, Gigi, and Turner are all solid bench guys, but none are starter material.

2) Point Guard: Smart's defense at sg is already elite, and point guard duties take up energy and effort that he could otherwise spend on defense and scoring.

3) Power Forward: Sullinger decent but unpredictable, and in the last year of his contract. Also, his defense is below average, and our two quality centers are both better on offense than defense. KO can play power forward, but he's a question mark as a starter next year, and he has thrived off the bench at center.

4) Center. Our strength at this position is depth, but we could use an upgrade at starter. It's just that finding such a player isn't easy, even if the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. We could also use a strong, big center off the bench for situational use against the big boys of the league.

5) Shooting guard. Smart looks like a star in the making here, but he is just one guy, and he is also very solid at point guard, and not terrible at SF either. Bradley is solid, and Turner is competent, and James Young is there on the bench, with lots of scoring potential.

To get back more on track with the spirit of this thread, and given that finding a clear cut Overall improvement at center is the hardest thing to do, I'd like to look at power forwards and even small forwards who can provide some of the rim protection, overall defense, and rebounding that we need, while actually being better overall than some of our guys.

But first, looking at center free agents, Tyson Chandler stands out as a player who would quite probably upgrade our team at center, based on his real plus minus both this year and last year with the Knicks.

The tricky part is that Chandler is aging, and this year we saw Joakim Noah's real plus minus drop off a cliff, going from #1 among centers down to the 20s. It's just a matter of time before something similar happens to Chandler, but he certainly might be worth a one year max deal or something.

Roy Hibbert dropped from 18th among centers to 25th, but some of that probably had to do with Paul George being injured.
Another factor that may have been affecting Hibbert is less easy to measure. We've heard that he's a sensitive guy who gets easily distracted and hung up on things off the court. But we also heard that Lance Stephenson would bully him really bad last year, so much so that our own Evan Turner had a fist fight with Lance to stand up for Hibbert.

It's entirely possible that Hibbert was simply in a bad locker room environment these last couple years, and while he got distracted and didn't play very well overall, it's possible that Hibbert would play significantly better in a fresh environment. And we know Stevens is good at turning players' careers around, as he already did with Turner, Humphries, and Jordan Crawford last year.

Hibbert was still a standout defensively last year, and his biggest issue was making the offense worse.
Another reason to strongly consider signing Hibbert is the fact that he would compliment Isaiah Thomas very well in the starting lineup. Thomas' offensive real plus minus was very good, while his defensive RPM was very low. Hibbert is the opposite, and signing him could solve our #2 and #4 team needs at the same time.

"Could" being the operative word. Because it's entirely possible, and perhaps even probable, that Hibbert would not be an overall upgrade over Zeller and even KO, except situationally. But even situational improvement against certain matchups would be a great addition. Just a question of money, and what the intangible factors are that we might not ever hear about as fans.

Among power forwards, both Bass and Sullinger ranked near the bottom in real defensive +/-, and while KO can play PF some, he's no defensive standout.

Interestingly, Jerebko finished 24th among power forwards in real defensive plus minus, much better than Sully and Bass:

51 Jared Sullinger
59 Brandon Bass

A defensive upgrade, and upgrade in general at PF would seem to be much more glaring than at center, even though Zeller and KO don't pass the eye test with their goofy whiteness and lack of highlight blocks, and scary tattoos.

So who are some of the good power forwards we might be able to draft or sign as free agents, who would be both an overall upgrade and preferably a defensive upgrade over Sully and Bass?

Bobby Portis doesn't seem to fit the description, definitely not from a defense and rebounding standpoint.

Trey Lyles isn't a great defender, but he'd probably be a defensive upgrade over Sully and Bass, while bringing much if not all of the offense that Sully and Bass do. He's also a lot stronger than Portis, and even has some stretch center potential down the line.

Montrezl Harrell is another name. Better defensively than Lyles, Portis, Sully, and Bass. He's built like Bass but with about two precious inches of height, and a much better knack for defense and rebounding than Bass.
Harrell might not be better overall than Sully, but he would definitely be a better fit next to Zeller or KO.

Kevin Looney could be a solid long term choice, with center length, a knack for rebounding, playing with heart, and showing serious jump shot potential. He lacks the bulk that we could really use at PF, which makes him no better a fit for our roster than Montrezl. Still, Looney would bring length that Harrell doesn't have, and might be better rebounder as well.

Christian Wood. I wrote a thread about him already, so you know how I feel. I think he has some real small forward potential on a team with stretch bigs like Boston. He also has major PF potential down the road, though his lack of bulk would be less than ideal if Zeller and KO end up being our only centers.

One free agent who stands out as a potential steal for us is Darrell Arthur. His real defensive plus minus was third in the NBA, in between ADavis And Serge Ibaka.

He probably wouldn't be a great starter for us, but he would be a major bench defender for us and compliment KO and Zeller and Sully very well.

Love and Milsap would be worth chasing with Max money, and Milsap looks pretty good defensively. Greg Monroe would be risky, but his defense looks good going by DRPM, while Drummond's does not.

Rambone,

this thread was an attempt to help decide which big men (centers and power forwards) were the best at rim protection only.

since many Celtic fans feel this is a need of improvement on our team here, I was trying to determine if there were stats that could be used/combined to help us see which big men are better at that specific talent.

for my money the combination of blocked shots per 36min AND opponents FG% at rim seemed to pass the "eye test" also.

Thus the final lists. you can see various other attempt on this thread earlier as well.


while there are other "stats" such as plus/minus or defensive rating, that bring info.....all stats seem to be flawed when it comes to defensive abilities.

Well, you can add defensive real plus minus, and also offensive fouls drawn, if they pass your eye test.

Gyso,

you can probably "un sticky" this thread as it seems fairly dead now.

I'm not sure it actualy helped anyone get a feel for which players are better rim protector's anyway.

kdp59 wrote:Gyso,

you can probably "un sticky" this thread as it seems fairly dead now.

I'm not sure it actualy  helped anyone get a feel for which players are better rim protector's anyway.

Okay . . . Done

thanks