Roster Reset

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willjr
Celtics17
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sinus007
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RosalieTCeltics
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Post by bobheckler Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:20 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:This is where I am totally puzzled.  Last year we were touted as one of the deepest teams in the NBA, now we trade away Marcus Smart, a move I did not see coming, but many did. Then I open up stories about Brogden, how he will probably be ready to start the season, and I see trade after trade after trade including him.  So.....where is our depth at that position now?  Please do not tell me that Pritchard will walk into Brogden's spot, he is no Brogden.  So our backcourt will be White and Jaylen? Pritchard on the bench? Hauser who no one seems to mention?  Is one of these guys going to put on a superman costume and take over and be a hero?  NOT.  So, it is money that is forcing this issue?  Someone please explain to me. Is there some terrific point guard out there that will be a free agent and sign with us????  Questions, too many I know, this mind is just constantly wondering??????????


Rosalie,

It's a conundrum and, yes, it's a lot about money but not exclusively.

Our front court is old (Al), unpredictably available (RWill) or of limited value (Luke and Blake). We have been discussing the need for Brad to "get us a good big". Z is an investment in Al's replacement. Brad did what we wanted, we just were shocked that Marcus was the price. I do not see any way we could afford to sign a legit NBA center without giving up someone of value.

I agree 100% that, contrary to what Payton has convinced himself, Pritchard is not ready for 25mpg on a Championship team. We need another guard, there's no doubt about it and JD Davison isn't him. I'm not down on JD, but he's just not ready for that level of responsibility. We need a solid vet to add to our depth there.

Nothing against Moose Muscala, but his trade to Washington is no great loss to us. Same with Gallinari. He's 34 and coming off an ACL. He won't be at or even near 100% for this coming season. Neither of those really represent a "loss of depth" to me.


If Grant is moved, as many of us believe he will be, who will we get in return? That's the $64 question, isn't it?

Free Agency begins this Friday @ 6pm EDT. We don't have long to wait.


Bob


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Post by RosalieTCeltics Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:50 pm

I have not heard a word about Blake, I think he may be gone. Wasn't his a player option contract? After not seeing a minute in that Miami series until the games were over, I read where he may try to go to another contender (Phoeniix)? or retire. As far as the other two Muscala and Gallinari, you are right, they were expendable. I would love to have had one good year of Gallo!!! I saw rumors of Mike Conley (pleasse, he is about 38 years old, ) not the guy I am looking for unless he wants 4 minutes a game and sit on the bench. Brad has his work cut out for him this week, it is going to be interesting. My personal thinking is that Grant talked his way out of Boston figuratively and realistically. He has valued himself at a rate that may backfire on him.. Remember Marcus's try for $$$$$ he ended up back here with whatever Danny would give him. With the new CBA, even Brad has admitted that teams are being more cautious. Oh well, busy week
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Post by NYCelt Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:30 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I have not heard a word about Blake, I think he may be gone.  Wasn't his a player option contract?  After not seeing a minute in that Miami series until the games were over, I read where he may try to go to another contender (Phoeniix)? or retire.  As far as the other two Muscala and Gallinari, you are right, they were expendable. I would love to have had one good year of Gallo!!!  I saw rumors of Mike Conley (pleasse, he is about 38 years old, )  not the guy I am looking for unless he wants 4 minutes a game and sit on the bench.  Brad has his work cut out for him this week, it is going to be interesting.  My personal thinking is that Grant talked his way out of Boston figuratively and realistically. He has valued himself at a rate that may backfire on him..  Remember Marcus's try for $$$$$  he ended up back here with whatever Danny would give him.   With the new CBA, even Brad has admitted that teams are being more cautious.  Oh well,  busy week

I think you're right, Rosalie. Busy week and more to come.

In your earlier post, I thought you posed a great question about depth. Many sources claimed the Celtics were a deep team last year, and now, with a few moves being made, the word is we're thin.

My own thinking is we had a great rotation of about 8 last year, plus or minus one due to health. Beyond that I thought we were thin on the type of talent needed to compete for a title. Right now my own opinion is we're really thin, and, I'm sure, looking at many sources to add from.

Going right through Bigs, Wings and Points, I expect a lot to change over the summer. I doubt Grant returns, and I don't think his value is high enough to try and sign him and deal from there. I don't think many teams have more than a slight interest in him, and not at the price he allegedly might think he is worth. Brogdon would be a big plus, and I think the likely starting point guard. Problem is there doesn't seem to be full disclosure on his injury status. I like White at the point just OK, but I think his playmaking ability falls well below Brogdon's, and would rather see them in the backcourt together for defense and playmaking. I think a real trouble spot is the frontcourt, specifically PF/C. I believe Porzingis was a great but expensive pickup. I also believe behind him at PF/C we have potentially got a disaster waiting to happen. If RWIII can stay on the floor all season, that changes everything. I'm sure Al will give a valiant shot to whatever playing time he gets, but with increasing rest. They like Kornet, but I don't see significant help there. Blake is gone but couldn't seem to get more minutes than Kornet, which is telling. I expect a deal for, or signing of, at least one, maybe two more bigs. Not All-Stars, but at least able bodied enough to work in the paint, boarding, providing defense, and some low post scoring threat.

If Pritchard is the only other option at PG besides Brogdon and White, I'm sure we're going shopping. There are usually a lot of veteran points around that can be had on 1-year deals, so that might be something. Wings behind Tatum and Brown are missing, unless Hauser can fulfill some promise he has shown. More will be needed regardless.

I think Brad has made a good start, but getting back to your busy comment in summary; it should very well be a busy summer.
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Post by Ktron Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:47 pm

(BBB) Better B Brad.

This roster as currently constructed ain't winning diddle lee squat.

Tired of the nonsense myself.


Last edited by Ktron on Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by bobheckler Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:06 pm

Ktron wrote:(BBB) Better B Brad.

This roster as currently constructed ain't winning doodle lee squat.


ktron,

Please explain why you feel that way.

2022-2023 Starting 5:  Derrick, Smart, Jaylen, Jayson, Al.  Key players off the bench:  RWill, Grant, Brogdon.  Depth behind them:  Sam, Payton, Luke.  Starting the season RWill was starting along with Al, so the 5 was Smart/Jaylen/Jayson/Al/RWill.  Then RWill got injured and Derrick stepped up.

2023-2024 Starting 5:  Derrick, Jaylen, Jayson, Al, Z.  Key players off the bench:  RWill, Brogdon.  Or maybe RWill starts and Al is off the bench.  Depth behind them:  Sam, Payton, Luke.  No difference there.

With the presumed loss of Grant we suffer with our 'Key players off the bench' depth, but Brad's not done yet.  As far as the starting 5 goes our double-big starting 5 this year, with either Al or RWill alongside Z, is better than last year's.  Much, really, since Z is an upgrade over either Al or RWill.  When Z is healthy he's a borderline All-Star.  Neither Al nor RWill are.

We need another guard, good enough to be behind Brogdon regardless of what Payton thinks.  We need another wing to either be in front of Sam or behind him so he can move up.  Both of those are much easier to get than a good big.

We had a great back court corp last year.  We had a great wing corp last year, albeit the quality of our depth there was thin.  It was our front court that was held together with medical tape.  Not this year.  Our front court is strong, our wings are the same, we just need to add a solid rotation guard.


Bob


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Post by RosalieTCeltics Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:14 pm

I heard talk that, God forbid, they want the ball in Tatum's hands more. This is where we really run into huge problems. The ball sticks when he takes it up the floor and before we know it, we are stuck taking desperation shots. I hope this is not the case, but think about it, I can see it . I also had a laugh when I read the headlines of one story on Celtics Wire or Blog, can't remember which, that Danny wanted Porzingas also and that is what forced Brad's hand. Please.......Is this the game we will play until they both retire and have nothing to do with basketball decisions?? Keith Smith is usually a pretty good place to go to find some accurate information, he does not speculate much, waits for the real deal to come out. Let's see this week, as they are all watching what the Celtics do to replace the one guy I never thought we would trade. Interesting.
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Post by NYCelt Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:21 pm

Ktron wrote:(BBB) Better B Brad.

This roster as currently constructed ain't winning diddle lee squat.

Tired of the nonsense myself.

I may see where you're coming from.

I think we have a potentially fantastic core-3. Maybe the best core-3 in the league if Porzingis can be what he was this past season.

I think White and, hopefully, Brogdon are great additions to round out a potential starting 5. Or RWIII if he's able. Al will contribute to some degree; I firmly believe that.

Beyond that there is work to do, but Stevens has said he's not done.

So yeah, I get your point and would agree. I think, however, there is much more to come and we're off to a good start. I think things look very promising.
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Post by Ktron Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:59 pm

We need another guard, good enough to be behind Brogdon regardless of what Payton thinks.  We need another wing to either be in front of Sam or behind him so he can move up.

As I was saying,’this current roster”.

If Brad adds what appears to be what you and I agree on then we should make it to the party.

I like the fact that we have Porzingis, especially if he’s healthy and can play. The “if” is concerning.

We lost the one player who had the most Grit and toughness in Smart.

We are about to lose the only other player that remotely possessed Some grit and toughness in Grant.

People can complain about his mouth all they’d like but at least he was there to back up his teammates, something they didn't have the Gonads to do and could guard and play other position.

Our 3rd guard is Midget Pritchard

I see no leadership on this team as presently constructed.

Our best player isn’t close to being a Shepard. He and his running Podnah are more like sheep descendants. Those are our leaders. Keeeeeeee. WE don’t have anyone that can spell Alpha at this point.

I’m not trying to be over critical, its just the way I see it today at this time.

Again, Brad may very well do something about this shortly but as of right now, we ain't going anywhere but to an early summer camp.

(“Hello Muddah, Hello Fada…here I am at camp”……you know the rest)

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Post by dboss Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:02 pm

Luke's contract is not fully guaranteed until 1/10/2024

The Celtics current players under contract generate $173,274,420 in total salaries.  CAP holds are not included.

The 2023-24 luxury tax threshold has been set at $165,000,00 so the Celtics are already over that limit and over the 1st apron that is set at $7 million above the tax threshold.  The 2nd apron is set at $17.5 million above the Tax threshold ($165M + 17.5 mill) =$182.5 million.

The Celtics have around $9.2 M before hitting the second apron and paying a higher tax penalty.

The owners may be willing to exceed the second apron to resign Grant and sign 2 more players to get to 14 or maybe not.  

Celtics are likely to carry 14 players and could add one more down the road.  With that in mind I expect them to sign 3 more players to the regular roster.

I just do not see them hitting the second apron to keep Grant.  Also, it may be more difficult to move Brogdon.  His injury risk is present so teams would be very cautious to make a trade plus we would want to take back less than what is going out.  Brad's remarkable draft day trades could help to push a deal through but with Smart gone we would only have one sure fire PG.  Maybe we could get back a cheaper BU point guard.  Who knows.  I do believe that he will be moved but it may not happen until next year.

I would like to see them convert JD's contract.  We have not seen the Walsh kid play yet but I also agree that he is probably destined to start in the G-League.  However if his defense is as advertised he could make the roster.  The backend of the roster rarely plays anyways so adding a cheap body does not hurt us.

Also below is a link to a plug in worksheet for all you capologist.  Top left plug in our $173.2 million salary and plug in the $165m under salary tax threshold and it will calculate the total tax and total salaries plus the txx

https://public.tableau.com/views/NBASalaryTaxCalculator/Dashboard1?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowVizHome=no&%3Adisplay_count=y&%3Adisplay_static_image=y&%3AbootstrapWhenNotified=true
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Post by dboss Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:08 pm

Ktron wrote:We need another guard, good enough to be behind Brogdon regardless of what Payton thinks.  We need another wing to either be in front of Sam or behind him so he can move up.

As I was saying,’this current roster”.

If Brad adds what appears to be what you and I agree on then we should make it to the party.

I like the fact that we have Porzingis, especially if he’s healthy and can play. The “if” is concerning.

We lost the one player who had the most Grit and toughness in Smart.

We are about to lose the only other player that remotely possessed Some grit and toughness in Grant.

People can complain about his mouth all they’d like but at least he was there to back up his teammates, something they didn't have the Gonads to do and could guard and play other position.

Our 3rd guard is Midget Pritchard

I see no leadership on this team as presently constructed.

Our best player isn’t close to being a Shepard. He and his running Podnah are more like sheep descendants. Those are our leaders. Keeeeeeee. WE don’t have anyone that can spell Alpha at this point.

I’m not trying to be over critical, its just the way I see it today at this time.

Again, Brad may very well do something about this shortly but as of right now, we ain't going anywhere but to an early summer camp.

(“Hello Muddah, Hello Fada…here I am at camp”……you know the rest)

ktron

We are going to find out about the leadership void PDQ. Sometimes when you have a dominant personality it can stifle other players from taking on that role.
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Post by Ktron Mon Jun 26, 2023 5:22 pm

NYCelt wrote:
Ktron wrote:(BBB) Better B Brad.

This roster as currently constructed ain't winning diddle lee squat.

Tired of the nonsense myself.

I may see where you're coming from.

I think we have a potentially fantastic core-3. Maybe the best core-3 in the league if Porzingis can be what he was this past season.

I think White and, hopefully, Brogdon are great additions to round out a potential starting 5. Or RWIII if he's able. Al will contribute to some degree; I firmly believe that.

Beyond that there is work to do, but Stevens has said he's not done.

So yeah, I get your point and would agree. I think, however, there is much more to come and we're off to a good start. I think things look very promising.

Fingers and toes crossed….{-:

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Post by bobheckler Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:58 pm

The Celtics have signed a 2 year deal with guard Dalano Banton.

Jay King @ByJayKing
4 minutes ago
Banton, who my phone apparently autocorrects to Blanton, is extremely long for a guard. He hasn’t shot too many 3s and hasn’t typically hit them (27.5% career). His career block% is nearly Derrick White-ish though — and was absurd this past season in limited PT — so that’s cool.



Adam Himmelsbach
Adam Himmelsbach @AdamHimmelsbach
about 9 minutes ago
Per source, the second year of guard Dalano Banton’s two-year deal with the Celtics is a team option.



Bobby Manning
Bobby Manning @RealBobManning
about 17 minutes ago
Dalano Banton is a tall (6-9) slashing guard who battled for minutes at the end of the #Raptors rotation 21-23. Depth guard who’ll battle with Pritchard, or remain in that 4th guard role Pritchard filled last year. Not much of a shooter, but only 24 this season.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Only played 278 minutes last year, 975 total in two seasons.  Limited opportunities, but his assist-to-turnover ratio is 2:1, which is good for a 6'9" player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bantoda01.html








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Post by gyso Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:29 pm

Well, he's tall.

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Post by bobheckler Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:59 pm

He's only been in the league for 2 years, this would be his 3rd.  Also, he's under 25. I believe that means he's qualified to play in Summer League. I'm wondering if he's going to be added to our SL team's roster.  It would make sense, every opportunity to work with our coaches, learning our system, would be helpful to him.





Bob


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Post by bobheckler Mon Jul 03, 2023 2:06 pm

NEW Roster Reset:  Up to 13 players now under contract.


Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Derrick White
Al Horford
Kristaps Porzingis
Robert Williams
Malcolm Brogdon
Grant Williams
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Luke Kornet
Dalano Banton
Oshea Brissett

Looking at it from another perspective, here it is by position (more or less, given today's positionless NBA):

Bigs - Zinger, Al, RWill, Luke, Grant (smallball big)
Wings - Jayson, Jaylen, Sam, Oshea, Dalano
Guards - Derrick, Malcolm, Payton


Bob



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Post by bobc33 Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:33 pm

gyso wrote:Well, he's tall.

GYSO that avatar is way cool! Dude can get up there!!

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Post by sinus007 Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:07 pm

bobheckler wrote:NEW Roster Reset:  Up to 13 players now under contract.


Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Derrick White
Al Horford
Kristaps Porzingis
Robert Williams
Malcolm Brogdon
Grant Williams
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Luke Kornet
Dalano Banton
Oshea Brissett

Looking at it from another perspective, here it is by position (more or less, given today's positionless NBA):

Bigs - Zinger, Al, RWill, Luke, Grant (smallball big)
Wings - Jayson, Jaylen, Sam, Oshea, Dalano
Guards - Derrick, Malcolm, Payton


Bob



.

Hi,
Did I miss it - Grant is in?

AK
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Post by gyso Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:12 pm

bobc33 wrote:
gyso wrote:Well, he's tall.

GYSO that avatar is way cool!  Dude can get up there!!

Here's the picture I cropped it from:

Roster Reset - Page 2 Scree414

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Post by bobheckler Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:31 pm

sinus007 wrote:
bobheckler wrote:NEW Roster Reset:  Up to 13 players now under contract.


Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Derrick White
Al Horford
Kristaps Porzingis
Robert Williams
Malcolm Brogdon
Grant Williams
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Luke Kornet
Dalano Banton
Oshea Brissett

Looking at it from another perspective, here it is by position (more or less, given today's positionless NBA):

Bigs - Zinger, Al, RWill, Luke, Grant (smallball big)
Wings - Jayson, Jaylen, Sam, Oshea, Dalano
Guards - Derrick, Malcolm, Payton


Bob



.

Hi,
Did I miss it - Grant is in?

AK


Sinus,

Once the Celtics submitted a Qualifying Offer to Grant he was in, until he's out via sign-and-trade or some team makes him an offer he can't refuse and the Celtics refuse to match.


Bob


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Post by bobheckler Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:02 pm

bobheckler wrote:NEW Roster Reset:  Up to 13 players now under contract.


Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Derrick White
Al Horford
Kristaps Porzingis
Robert Williams
Malcolm Brogdon
Grant Williams
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Luke Kornet
Dalano Banton
Oshea Brissett

Looking at it from another perspective, here it is by position (more or less, given today's positionless NBA):

Bigs - Zinger, Al, RWill, Luke, Grant (smallball big)
Wings - Jayson, Jaylen, Sam, Oshea, Dalano
Guards - Derrick, Malcolm, Payton


Bob



.



Now only 12 players under contract.

Jayson Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Derrick White
Al Horford
Kristaps Porzingis
Robert Williams
Malcolm Brogdon
Sam Hauser
Payton Pritchard
Luke Kornet
Dalano Banton
Oshea Brissett

Looking at it from another perspective, here it is by position (more or less, given today's positionless NBA):

Bigs - Zinger, Al, RWill, Luke
Wings - Jayson, Jaylen, Sam, Oshea, Dalano
Guards - Derrick, Malcolm, Payton


Our depth is gone.  We went from no depth under Ime (Brad) to great depth under Joe (Brad) and now right back to being maybe 9 deep, if you are impressed with Sam and Payton. If you like one playing 20+mpg all season but not both then we're only 7-8 deep.

And that's assuming Malcolm stays healthy.


Bob


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Post by bobheckler Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:53 am

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/07/what-grant-williams-trade-to-mavs-means-for-celtics-offseason-possibilities.html



What Grant Williams trade to Mavs means for Celtics offseason possibilities

Updated: Jul. 06, 2023, 1:11 a.m.|Published: Jul. 06, 2023, 1:11 a.m.


By Brian Robb | brobb@masslive.com



The Celtics made their second big move of the offseason on Wednesday night, agreeing to sign-and-trade Grant Williams to the Mavericks in a three-team deal that lands Boston two second-round picks, a second roundd pick swap and a trade exception worth somewhere between $6-7 million per league sources. Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN.com was first to report the deal.


The move comes as little surprise in the wake of the Kristaps Porzingis blockbuster. Adding a big man with a pricy salary was a sign that Williams was heading out the door without Boston making some payroll cuts elsewhere. Williams would have been tempting to keep at midlevel money for the Celtics but he got his bigger deal from the Mavericks for four years and $54 million. That was high enough for the Celtics to walk away from with a little sweetener from the Mavericks in second-round picks to facilitate a deal. With luxury tax penalties factored in, Williams would have cost Boston about $40 million next year without clearing out more payroll. That’s a lot for a fourth big off the bench.


While the Celtics’ future tax issues look a little easier to manage without Williams on the books, the roster itself is now more of a question mark. Boston’s frontcourt is full of relatively slow-footed defensive bigs in Kristaps Porzingis, Al Horford and Robert Williams with their most versatile big in Grant Williams heading to the lone star state. Backing up that less-than-durable group on the roster at the moment is Oshae Brissett, Sam Hauser, Luke Kornet, Jordan Walsh and a player to be named later. While one of Horford or Rob Williams will come off the bench, the Celtics frontcourt will suddenly look mighty thin if any of the top three bigs goes down with an injury. With Horford likely resting back-to-backs again this year, Boston’s depth will be tested plenty already.


Don’t look for the Celtics to find much notable help on the free agent market however to fill the spot. Even after losing Williams, the team won’t still have access to their taxpayer midlevel exception ($5 million) without cutting more payroll. The Celtics can’t use the mid-level exception to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade either since they are already over the first apron with their payroll.

Barring a trade, that means the Celtics are just relying on veteran’s minimums now to fill out the roster without a guarantee of a big role. In effect, the Celtics traded Smart and Grant Williams for Porzingis, Jordan Walsh and what has now turned into a 2024 first round pick and six second-round picks.


That’s a lot of additional ammo for the Celtics to deal but none of that helps this roster contend next season without some additional action. Boston’s defensive versatility has taken a big hit in the last couple of weeks and while names like Brissett and Banton are cheap replacements, the configuration of this roster looks soft in a couple of areas. How Brad Stevens addresses those spots will loom quite large from a depth standpoint but there’s no questioning the Celtics taking a step back on Wednesday night without a subsequent move.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Well, now we know why Wyc told Brad last year that "this is the year, we're not building for future years.  Do what it takes to win #18 this year".  Wyc knew about this new CBA and knew what it meant with his then-current payroll.  Jaylen getting named to an All-NBA team might have been a bit of a mixed surprise (good surprise because it elevates the quality and marketability of his roster; bad surprise because he's now dealing with having to fork over a supermax contract that is driving these cuts).

This is where Brad's eye for marginal talent that can be developed will be key.  He has to find players (Brissett?  Blanton?) who languished in their previous roles and teams but who can blossom here under Joe's system.  And while I have been as hard on Joe as anybody, maybe even more than anybody, this might be his sweet spot too.  His years of experience developing players, going back to his college coaching days but also as an assistant coach for the, then, Maine Red Claws and onward to assistant coach of the Celtics might be just what we need to turn a bench of not battle-tested young'uns into terrors.  We now have Sam Cassell and Charles Lee for veteran coaching leadership (if Joe will let them, as long as they don't undermine his authority).

Z is definitely an upgrade at center, and that was our weakest link.  We struggled to win inside last season.  We all bemoaned how we were SO 3-centric.  Well, that was in part because we didn't have a beast inside.  I hated having to give up Marcus to get him but, when I go completely cold about it, getting a borderline All-Star like The Unicorn plus two 2nd round picks for Marcus Smart is a good deal for us.  However, the loss of Marcus and Grant makes us very vulnerable to injuries as well as the loss of their talents and, most impactfully, their toughness.  Who's going to step up and be our next dawg?  I'm going to float a name here...Payton Pritchard.  He is one feisty, hyper-competitive little SOB.  I could see him being the next "I'll get in anybody's face if that's what it takes" Celtic.  It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, and all that...

BTW, I'm doubling down on my bet that Jordan Walsh makes the team.  I'm not saying he won't be in Maine a lot to get reps, I'm sure he will, but I'm still on board with him getting an NBA contract and not a two-way.  By giving up Grant without getting a player in return we're now down to 12 players, not including him, so there are 2-3 slots open.  We lost a rabid, physical defender with Marcus and need one desperately, and we won't find one cheaper than a #38 pick, and it's pretty clear at this point that money is a serious, serious issue for our front office.  If Brad wants to pick up another veteran to fill out the bench he's going to need to go extra cheap for the remaining 1-2 slots.



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Post by bobheckler Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:03 am

https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/nba/boston-celtics/how-do-celtics-replace-grant-williams/541490/


How do the Celtics replace Grant Williams?

Williams reportedly will be sent to the Mavericks in a three-team deal.


By Chris Forsberg, Celtics Insider • Published July 5, 2023 • Updated 19 mins ago
 

The NBA’s new second apron put a squeeze on the Boston Celtics, who will deliver forward Grant Williams to Dallas as part of a three-team trade that will bring back a pair of second-round picks and create a $6.2 million traded player exception.

For the Celtics, moving Williams is a less-than-ideal scenario but one that felt like an inevitability after the team acquired Kristaps Porzingis last month.

In introducing Porzingis, Celtics president of basketball operations Brad Stevens noted the team still had a green light to spend but needed to be diligent about long-term commitments. It felt in that moment that Williams was unlikely to be back on the sort of long-term extension the two sides couldn’t hammer out before the 2022-23 season.


Stevens adds two more second-round picks to the five others he acquired as part of recent transactions. Those picks could be valuable in bolstering Boston’s thinned depth further down the road. The TPE could aid the Celtics in acquiring an impactful player, too, especially if Boston wishes to avoid using its taxpayer midlevel, which would hard cap the team at the second apron for the season.

Williams’ reported deal — four years, $54 million — is in the neighborhood of what the Celtics might have been willing to spend before the year, and maybe even if they created additional cap room by moving Malcolm Brogdon.

But when the Brogdon portion of the original Porzingis deal fell apart after the Clippers balked about Brogdon’s health, the Celtics had to ponder the merits of carrying a player who dipped from Joe Mazzulla’s rotation late in the year and portions of the playoffs.

The Celtics sit about $7 million below the second apron and must determine the best way to fill out a bench that will miss Williams’ 3-and-D potential. There were stretches of Williams’ career here where it felt like he might eventually elevate to a starter-level forward.

Alas, his consistency waned after a strong start to last season and Mazzulla didn’t exactly inject confidence by shuffling him out of the rotation in early March.

Williams should thrive with an opportunity and contract security in Dallas. The Celtics don’t have an obvious pathway to replacing his potential, though Porzingis will eat a heavy dose of frontcourt minutes and younger players like Sam Hauser should get more opportunity to fill the shooting void.

Ultimately, the Celtics’ bench is less deep after moving Williams. Maybe that’s just a reality of the new CBA. Teams simply cannot splurge to build a deep roster, at least without so much money committed to star talent.

The Celtics, if healthy, still have a strong potential playoff rotation. But they are left a bit thin in the frontcourt where Porzingis, Al Horford, and Robert Williams III all have durability concerns.

Replacing Williams off the court could be even more difficult. Despite his loud personality, Williams endeared himself to this core, including Tatum.

For all the complaints about Williams, his grit and toughness -- especially on the defensive end -- were undeniable. The Celtics don’t make the 2022 Finals without Williams’ defensive efforts against Kevin Durant and Giannis Antetokounmpo. The Celtics lost a double dose of defensive toughness with Marcus Smart and Williams departing, this one season after their defense-first identity eroded. Williams saved some of his best basketball for the big stage.

There is an obvious void and a new CBA doesn’t make it any easier to fill.


Bob
MY NOTE:  We are a weaker team without Marcus and Grant.  More balanced with the addition of Z, but weaker.  Brogdon's injury history, and his unwillingness (?) to get surgery right away, killed us.  He's an unknown, and LAC didn't want to give up good value for an unknown.  If he had had surgery then there'd be a reliable medical prognosis for Steve Ballmer to depend upon. Now?  It's just how Malcolm is "feeling" about his arm.


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Post by Ktron Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:28 pm

bobheckler wrote:https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/07/what-grant-williams-trade-to-mavs-means-for-celtics-offseason-possibilities.html



What Grant Williams trade to Mavs means for Celtics offseason possibilities

Updated: Jul. 06, 2023, 1:11 a.m.|Published: Jul. 06, 2023, 1:11 a.m.


By Brian Robb | brobb@masslive.com



The Celtics made their second big move of the offseason on Wednesday night, agreeing to sign-and-trade Grant Williams to the Mavericks in a three-team deal that lands Boston two second-round picks, a second roundd pick swap and a trade exception worth somewhere between $6-7 million per league sources. Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN.com was first to report the deal.


The move comes as little surprise in the wake of the Kristaps Porzingis blockbuster. Adding a big man with a pricy salary was a sign that Williams was heading out the door without Boston making some payroll cuts elsewhere. Williams would have been tempting to keep at midlevel money for the Celtics but he got his bigger deal from the Mavericks for four years and $54 million. That was high enough for the Celtics to walk away from with a little sweetener from the Mavericks in second-round picks to facilitate a deal. With luxury tax penalties factored in, Williams would have cost Boston about $40 million next year without clearing out more payroll. That’s a lot for a fourth big off the bench.


While the Celtics’ future tax issues look a little easier to manage without Williams on the books, the roster itself is now more of a question mark. Boston’s frontcourt is full of relatively slow-footed defensive bigs in Kristaps Porzingis, Al Horford and Robert Williams with their most versatile big in Grant Williams heading to the lone star state. Backing up that less-than-durable group on the roster at the moment is Oshae Brissett, Sam Hauser, Luke Kornet, Jordan Walsh and a player to be named later. While one of Horford or Rob Williams will come off the bench, the Celtics frontcourt will suddenly look mighty thin if any of the top three bigs goes down with an injury. With Horford likely resting back-to-backs again this year, Boston’s depth will be tested plenty already.


Don’t look for the Celtics to find much notable help on the free agent market however to fill the spot. Even after losing Williams, the team won’t still have access to their taxpayer midlevel exception ($5 million) without cutting more payroll. The Celtics can’t use the mid-level exception to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade either since they are already over the first apron with their payroll.

Barring a trade, that means the Celtics are just relying on veteran’s minimums now to fill out the roster without a guarantee of a big role. In effect, the Celtics traded Smart and Grant Williams for Porzingis, Jordan Walsh and what has now turned into a 2024 first round pick and six second-round picks.


That’s a lot of additional ammo for the Celtics to deal but none of that helps this roster contend next season without some additional action. Boston’s defensive versatility has taken a big hit in the last couple of weeks and while names like Brissett and Banton are cheap replacements, the configuration of this roster looks soft in a couple of areas. How Brad Stevens addresses those spots will loom quite large from a depth standpoint but there’s no questioning the Celtics taking a step back on Wednesday night without a subsequent move.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Well, now we know why Wyc told Brad last year that "this is the year, we're not building for future years.  Do what it takes to win #18 this year".  Wyc knew about this new CBA and knew what it meant with his then-current payroll.  Jaylen getting named to an All-NBA team might have been a bit of a mixed surprise (good surprise because it elevates the quality and marketability of his roster; bad surprise because he's now dealing with having to fork over a supermax contract that is driving these cuts).

This is where Brad's eye for marginal talent that can be developed will be key.  He has to find players (Brissett?  Blanton?) who languished in their previous roles and teams but who can blossom here under Joe's system.  And while I have been as hard on Joe as anybody, maybe even more than anybody, this might be his sweet spot too.  His years of experience developing players, going back to his college coaching days but also as an assistant coach for the, then, Maine Red Claws and onward to assistant coach of the Celtics might be just what we need to turn a bench of not battle-tested young'uns into terrors.  We now have Sam Cassell and Charles Lee for veteran coaching leadership (if Joe will let them, as long as they don't undermine his authority).

Z is definitely an upgrade at center, and that was our weakest link.  We struggled to win inside last season.  We all bemoaned how we were SO 3-centric.  Well, that was in part because we didn't have a beast inside.  I hated having to give up Marcus to get him but, when I go completely cold about it, getting a borderline All-Star like The Unicorn plus two 2nd round picks for Marcus Smart is a good deal for us.  However, the loss of Marcus and Grant makes us very vulnerable to injuries as well as the loss of their talents and, most impactfully, their toughness.  Who's going to step up and be our next dawg?  I'm going to float a name here...Payton Pritchard.  He is one feisty, hyper-competitive little SOB.  I could see him being the next "I'll get in anybody's face if that's what it takes" Celtic.  It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, and all that...

BTW, I'm doubling down on my bet that Jordan Walsh makes the team.  I'm not saying he won't be in Maine a lot to get reps, I'm sure he will, but I'm still on board with him getting an NBA contract and not a two-way.  By giving up Grant without getting a player in return we're now down to 12 players, not including him, so there are 2-3 slots open.  We lost a rabid, physical defender with Marcus and need one desperately, and we won't find one cheaper than a #38 pick, and it's pretty clear at this point that money is a serious, serious issue for our front office.  If Brad wants to pick up another veteran to fill out the bench he's going to need to go extra cheap for the remaining 1-2 slots.



.
Bob, agree with many of your points here but Payton Pritchard? Oh you're right. He is one feisty, hyper-competitive little SOB, just like my daughters 2 Shih Tzu’s. They never quit:>). But you are right. He is feisty and all that but he looks like he just got out of Navy boot camp. Taint nobody scared of Pritchard. Bob we need A dog. S**T at this point I’ll settle for a Collie.

On another note. Ive been watching a few Summer League games and the Spurs have a Champagnie on their team too. First name Julian. He’s knocking down a high percentage of 3’s and looks damn good (I know SL).
From the looks of things Brad may have bought the discounted Great Value bottle of the bubbly.

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Post by bobheckler Thu Jul 06, 2023 1:11 pm

Ktron wrote:
bobheckler wrote:https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/07/what-grant-williams-trade-to-mavs-means-for-celtics-offseason-possibilities.html



What Grant Williams trade to Mavs means for Celtics offseason possibilities

Updated: Jul. 06, 2023, 1:11 a.m.|Published: Jul. 06, 2023, 1:11 a.m.


By Brian Robb | brobb@masslive.com



The Celtics made their second big move of the offseason on Wednesday night, agreeing to sign-and-trade Grant Williams to the Mavericks in a three-team deal that lands Boston two second-round picks, a second roundd pick swap and a trade exception worth somewhere between $6-7 million per league sources. Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN.com was first to report the deal.


The move comes as little surprise in the wake of the Kristaps Porzingis blockbuster. Adding a big man with a pricy salary was a sign that Williams was heading out the door without Boston making some payroll cuts elsewhere. Williams would have been tempting to keep at midlevel money for the Celtics but he got his bigger deal from the Mavericks for four years and $54 million. That was high enough for the Celtics to walk away from with a little sweetener from the Mavericks in second-round picks to facilitate a deal. With luxury tax penalties factored in, Williams would have cost Boston about $40 million next year without clearing out more payroll. That’s a lot for a fourth big off the bench.


While the Celtics’ future tax issues look a little easier to manage without Williams on the books, the roster itself is now more of a question mark. Boston’s frontcourt is full of relatively slow-footed defensive bigs in Kristaps Porzingis, Al Horford and Robert Williams with their most versatile big in Grant Williams heading to the lone star state. Backing up that less-than-durable group on the roster at the moment is Oshae Brissett, Sam Hauser, Luke Kornet, Jordan Walsh and a player to be named later. While one of Horford or Rob Williams will come off the bench, the Celtics frontcourt will suddenly look mighty thin if any of the top three bigs goes down with an injury. With Horford likely resting back-to-backs again this year, Boston’s depth will be tested plenty already.


Don’t look for the Celtics to find much notable help on the free agent market however to fill the spot. Even after losing Williams, the team won’t still have access to their taxpayer midlevel exception ($5 million) without cutting more payroll. The Celtics can’t use the mid-level exception to acquire a player in a sign-and-trade either since they are already over the first apron with their payroll.

Barring a trade, that means the Celtics are just relying on veteran’s minimums now to fill out the roster without a guarantee of a big role. In effect, the Celtics traded Smart and Grant Williams for Porzingis, Jordan Walsh and what has now turned into a 2024 first round pick and six second-round picks.


That’s a lot of additional ammo for the Celtics to deal but none of that helps this roster contend next season without some additional action. Boston’s defensive versatility has taken a big hit in the last couple of weeks and while names like Brissett and Banton are cheap replacements, the configuration of this roster looks soft in a couple of areas. How Brad Stevens addresses those spots will loom quite large from a depth standpoint but there’s no questioning the Celtics taking a step back on Wednesday night without a subsequent move.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Well, now we know why Wyc told Brad last year that "this is the year, we're not building for future years.  Do what it takes to win #18 this year".  Wyc knew about this new CBA and knew what it meant with his then-current payroll.  Jaylen getting named to an All-NBA team might have been a bit of a mixed surprise (good surprise because it elevates the quality and marketability of his roster; bad surprise because he's now dealing with having to fork over a supermax contract that is driving these cuts).

This is where Brad's eye for marginal talent that can be developed will be key.  He has to find players (Brissett?  Blanton?) who languished in their previous roles and teams but who can blossom here under Joe's system.  And while I have been as hard on Joe as anybody, maybe even more than anybody, this might be his sweet spot too.  His years of experience developing players, going back to his college coaching days but also as an assistant coach for the, then, Maine Red Claws and onward to assistant coach of the Celtics might be just what we need to turn a bench of not battle-tested young'uns into terrors.  We now have Sam Cassell and Charles Lee for veteran coaching leadership (if Joe will let them, as long as they don't undermine his authority).

Z is definitely an upgrade at center, and that was our weakest link.  We struggled to win inside last season.  We all bemoaned how we were SO 3-centric.  Well, that was in part because we didn't have a beast inside.  I hated having to give up Marcus to get him but, when I go completely cold about it, getting a borderline All-Star like The Unicorn plus two 2nd round picks for Marcus Smart is a good deal for us.  However, the loss of Marcus and Grant makes us very vulnerable to injuries as well as the loss of their talents and, most impactfully, their toughness.  Who's going to step up and be our next dawg?  I'm going to float a name here...Payton Pritchard.  He is one feisty, hyper-competitive little SOB.  I could see him being the next "I'll get in anybody's face if that's what it takes" Celtic.  It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, and all that...

BTW, I'm doubling down on my bet that Jordan Walsh makes the team.  I'm not saying he won't be in Maine a lot to get reps, I'm sure he will, but I'm still on board with him getting an NBA contract and not a two-way.  By giving up Grant without getting a player in return we're now down to 12 players, not including him, so there are 2-3 slots open.  We lost a rabid, physical defender with Marcus and need one desperately, and we won't find one cheaper than a #38 pick, and it's pretty clear at this point that money is a serious, serious issue for our front office.  If Brad wants to pick up another veteran to fill out the bench he's going to need to go extra cheap for the remaining 1-2 slots.



.
Bob, agree with many of your points here but Payton Pritchard? Oh you're right. He is one feisty, hyper-competitive little SOB, just like my daughters 2 Shih Tzu’s. They never quit:>). But you are right. He is feisty and all that but he looks like he just got out of Navy boot camp. Taint nobody scared of Pritchard. Bob we need A dog. S**T at this point I’ll settle for a Collie.

On another note. Ive been watching a few Summer League games and the Spurs have a Champagnie on their team too. First name Julian. He’s knocking down a high percentage of 3’s and looks damn good (I know SL).
From the looks of things Brad may have bought the discounted Great Value bottle of the bubbly.


ktron,

I know that Payton Pritchard isn't going to make anybody BTFU, but he won't back down and that will/could/should inspire his teammates.  I'm not looking for a goon, I'm looking for someone who will make you have to kill him before he stops coming at you.  "You might as well kill me now because if you don't I'll be right back here in your grill".

The days of players throwing down are in the past.  They cost too much now, owners don't want them damaged by a stray fist.  They're treated like (Yao) Ming Vases.  Too many minutes in an NBA season for you now?  Oh, don't worry bubala, we'll let you sit games out so you can get your beauty sleep.  I just want someone who challenges, a player with a chip on their shoulder and won't take any shite from anybody and that's Pritchard.  He's not the one I would have wanted, the two I wanted are gone, but we need at least one player like that.  All the players we have now are just too damn nice to get mean.


Bob


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Post by dboss Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:22 pm

Take a look around the East

The Celtics do not have to replace Grant Williams.  If he did not get moved he would have a diminished role.  I think a low cost rotation 4/5 is all they need to have a better front line than they had last season.  Actually getting Porzingis makes our 4/5 talent better.  Maybe they bring BG back

Marcus will be missed more.  Does anybody remember how many times we wanted to know why D White was not playing more and finishing games?  What about a healthy Brogdon?  There were never enough minutes for the depth that we had in the backcourt.  In reality there will be more than enough bodies to hold down the PG spot.

Would you rather be the Heat, Bucks, Sixers or  Knicks? and even the Cavs It is not like The new CBA and the yearly roster changes only apply to the Celtics.

Every single one of our top 4 challenges have a hole or two to fill.  The Bucks and Philly have new coaches.  Who is the BU PG for the Bucks now?  The Cavs lack SF depth.  They have a very average quality starter.  The Heat drool for the dame but they really do not have the trade assets to satisfy Portland.  And they are down 2 key guys in Strus and Gabe Vincent.  They want to move or buyout lowery.  Who is their starting PG if he is gone?  And their BU PG?  3rd string?  anybody, anybody??

How bout those sixers and their Nursemaid?  What about fat boy Harden.  

And let's not forget those Knicks.  This team will probably be dead as Thibs is a killer coach and he is getting close to his X-date.  They moved Obi right at the time where you could see his improvements but they drafted his brother to stay on Top

I could go on and on and on and I would even make up some Sh-t to make you jump off a cliff in despair.

Does this make you feel a little better about our team? maybe a little less manic perhaps?
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