My Wish List

This is my wish list with an alternative.  This list contemplates no movement up or down and we would still have 4 picks to play with.  Get me two shooters and 2 bigs and I'm good to go.


Hield/Murray
Valentine/Luwawu
Hammonds/Jones
Maker/Brice Johnson

dboss

dboss wrote:This is my wish list with an alternative.  This list contemplates no movement up or down and we would still have 4 picks to play with.  Get me two shooters and 2 bigs and I'm good to go.


Hield/Murray
Valentine/Luwawu
Hammonds/Jones
Maker/Brice Johnson

dboss

dboss,

Nice wish list; you can do my shopping any time.

Hield and Valentine would be exactly the right fit for team needs.

At center I may prefer Stone.  If we land Hammonds, however, I'm still happy and we stand to improve over current centers.

May your draft wishes come true!

Regards

so young and the 15th placeholder are gone then.

which of Sully, Turner and Zeller are gone then?

or are all three sent packing and a Big time FA signed instead?

myself I doubt we'll have more than 2 rookies on our roster next year, which will require Danny to be a busy boy.

8 picks with a lot more to come. Make them the speculative stocks for the future. Only players that are high on potential. Let them ripen on the vine. Great opportunity to lay the foundation for another generation of Celtic greatness.

swish

since this is a wish list thread, I will put out an option I think makes us a contender now and preserves our future options. Putting my various thoughts about the off-season into one post

Trade for Butler (if he is on the block) . Sending the Nets pick (not 1 or 2) , Bradley, the top second round pick and our own first in 2018.

draft the following players:

16. D. Valentine or T. Prince
23. D. Jones or D. Stone
35. A. Zizic (draft and stash)
45. Damion Lee- Competes with Young for roster spot)


renounce the rights to Sully and Turner, giving us about $21M in cap space in the new league year.

Sign Pau Gasol to a 2 year deal at $20M per year.

Resign Zeller to a 2 year deal at $5M or less per. (corection: use a cap exception to resign Zeller here, if required).

roster next year:

Gasol
Zeller
#23 pick
Amir
Mickey
Kelly O
Jerebko
Crowder
#16 pick
Young or second round pick
Butler
Thomas
Smart
Rozier
Hunter

Cap space the next year at about $35M , due to cap rising about $20M and Amir and Jerebko's deals expiring alone.

kdp59 wrote:since this is a wish list thread, I will put out an option I think makes us a contender now and preserves our future options. Putting my various thoughts about the off-season into one post

Trade for Butler (if he is on the block) . Sending the Nets pick (not 1 or 2) , Bradley, the top second round pick and our own first in 2018.

draft the following players:

16. D. Valentine or T. Prince
23. D. Jones or D. Stone
35. A. Zizic (draft and stash)
45. Damion Lee- Competes with Young for roster spot)


renounce the rights to Sully and Turner, giving us about $21M in cap space in the new league year.

Sign Pau Gasol to a 2 year deal at $20M per year.

Resign Zeller to a 2 year deal at $5M or less per. (we can go over the cap to sign our own players).

roster next year:

Gasol
Zeller
#23 pick
Amir
Mickey
Kelly O
Jerebko
Crowder
#16 pick
Young or second round pick
Butler
Thomas
Smart
Rozier
Hunter

Cap space the next year at about $35M , due to cap rising about $20M and Amir and Jerebko's deals expiring alone.

When a team goes under the salary cap, they cannot go back over the salary cap to sign their own players.
As an example, the Lakers could not go under the salary cap and sign two max players, then decide to re-sign Kobe or Hibbert to $10+m contracts.
The only exception to signing players when you are at the salary cap limit is when you use the Bi-annual Exception or teams can sign players to Veterans Minimum contracts.

dboss wrote:This is my wish list with an alternative.  This list contemplates no movement up or down and we would still have 4 picks to play with.  Get me two shooters and 2 bigs and I'm good to go.


Hield/Murray
Valentine/Luwawu
Hammonds/Jones
Maker/Brice Johnson

dboss

great picks, I would be ecstatic if we got these players, I really like Maker and Hammons as a young 4-5 combo.....please do this Danny

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

dboss wrote:This is my wish list with an alternative.  This list contemplates no movement up or down and we would still have 4 picks to play with.  Get me two shooters and 2 bigs and I'm good to go.


Hield/Murray
Valentine/Luwawu
Hammonds/Jones
Maker/Brice Johnson

dboss

great picks, I would be ecstatic if we got these players, I really like Maker and Hammons as a young 4-5 combo.....please do this Danny

Cowens wants the Budweiser Clydesdales.

When's their contract up with InBev?


bob


.

RE the Clydesdales...........

they are Eruo's you know......Belgium. Might be soft.

Wonder if Cow knows that.

beat

tjmakz wrote:

kdp59 wrote:since this is a wish list thread, I will put out an option I think makes us a contender now and preserves our future options. Putting my various thoughts about the off-season into one post

Trade for Butler (if he is on the block) . Sending the Nets pick (not 1 or 2) , Bradley, the top second round pick and our own first in 2018.

draft the following players:

16. D. Valentine or T. Prince
23. D. Jones or D. Stone
35. A. Zizic (draft and stash)
45. Damion Lee- Competes with Young for roster spot)


renounce the rights to Sully and Turner, giving us about $21M in cap space in the new league year.

Sign Pau Gasol to a 2 year deal at $20M per year.

Resign Zeller to a 2 year deal at $5M or less per. (we can go over the cap to sign our own players).

roster next year:

Gasol
Zeller
#23 pick
Amir
Mickey
Kelly O
Jerebko
Crowder
#16 pick
Young or second round pick
Butler
Thomas
Smart
Rozier
Hunter

Cap space the next year at about $35M , due to cap rising about $20M and Amir and Jerebko's deals expiring alone.

When a team goes under the salary cap, they cannot go back over the salary cap to sign their own players.
As an example, the Lakers could not go under the salary cap and sign two max players, then decide to re-sign Kobe or Hibbert to $10+m contracts.
The only exception to signing players when you are at the salary cap limit is when you use the Bi-annual Exception or teams can sign players to Veterans Minimum contracts.

Correct.

The "Cap Hold" is the mechanism that wouldn't allow a team to go over the cap to sign their own free agent players.  In this case, the cap hold on Zeller is probably higher than what we would want to sign him for as a backup.  Cap holds remain on free agents until the player is renounced or resigned.  

If he is renounced, then you have to use an exception to resign him.  It would be like he came from another team.  If he is resigned, it may be that his cap hit would be lowered.  

Whichever is the lowest, the cap hold or the new contract, usually determines the order of all the contract signings that make up the team when resigning your own free agents.  If the cap hold is higher, you sign him quick.  If the cap hold is lower, you wait until later.

If any contract takes the team over the cap, an exception has to be used.  Often it is the Bird Rule exception that allows a team to sign their own free agents and go over the cap at the same time.  The Larry Bird exception requires 3 years of service, the Early Bird exception requires only 2 years of service.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

gyso

gyso wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

kdp59 wrote:since this is a wish list thread, I will put out an option I think makes us a contender now and preserves our future options. Putting my various thoughts about the off-season into one post

Trade for Butler (if he is on the block) . Sending the Nets pick (not 1 or 2) , Bradley, the top second round pick and our own first in 2018.

draft the following players:

16. D. Valentine or T. Prince
23. D. Jones or D. Stone
35. A. Zizic (draft and stash)
45. Damion Lee- Competes with Young for roster spot)


renounce the rights to Sully and Turner, giving us about $21M in cap space in the new league year.

Sign Pau Gasol to a 2 year deal at $20M per year.

Resign Zeller to a 2 year deal at $5M or less per. (we can go over the cap to sign our own players).

roster next year:

Gasol
Zeller
#23 pick
Amir
Mickey
Kelly O
Jerebko
Crowder
#16 pick
Young or second round pick
Butler
Thomas
Smart
Rozier
Hunter

Cap space the next year at about $35M , due to cap rising about $20M and Amir and Jerebko's deals expiring alone.

When a team goes under the salary cap, they cannot go back over the salary cap to sign their own players.
As an example, the Lakers could not go under the salary cap and sign two max players, then decide to re-sign Kobe or Hibbert to $10+m contracts.
The only exception to signing players when you are at the salary cap limit is when you use the Bi-annual Exception or teams can sign players to Veterans Minimum contracts.

Correct.

The "Cap Hold" is the mechanism that wouldn't allow a team to go over the cap to sign their own free agent players.  In this case, the cap hold on Zeller is probably higher than what we would want to sign him for as a backup.  Cap holds remain on free agents until the player is renounced or resigned.  

If he is renounced, then you have to use an exception to resign him.  It would be like he came from another team.  If he is resigned, it may be that his cap hit would be lowered.  

Whichever is the lowest, the cap hold or the new contract, usually determines the order of all the contract signings that make up the team when resigning your own free agents.  If the cap hold is higher, you sign him quick.  If the cap hold is lower, you wait until later.

If any contract takes the team over the cap, an exception has to be used.  Often it is the Bird Rule exception that allows a team to sign their own free agents and go over the cap at the same time.  The Larry Bird exception requires 3 years of service, the Early Bird exception requires only 2 years of service.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

gyso

so , do i understand correctly that Zellers cap hold is at 150% of his current salary....around $3.9M for next year ?

I do not renounce Zeller in my scenario just Turner and Sull (who I assume have a combined cap hold of around $8.5M

Zeller's cap hold would still be on our cap (at the $3.9M?)...

if that is all correct, can we THEN re-sign him and go over the cap to do so?
as in my scenario at $5M we'd go over the cap by about $1.1M

Is this correct?

The end of a free agent's contract does not remove him from a team's cap calculations. During the free agency period (from July 1 until the player signs with a team, or the free agent's former team renounces its rights), each free agent carries a specified salary cap charge for his last team, most often called a "cap hold". Normally, the cap hold can be no more than a player's maximum salary, or less than his minimum salary, based on years of service. The only exception is for free agents who made the minimum salary in the previous season; if the league reimbursed the team for a portion of his salary in the last season of his contract, the reimbursement is not counted in the cap hold. Apart from these restrictions, the cap hold varies based on the status of the free agent and his salary in the previous season:[41]
Bird free agent: If not coming off a rookie scale contract, and salary was at or above the estimated average salary,[a] 150% of previous salary.
If not coming off a rookie scale contract, and salary was below the estimated average salary, 190% of previous salary.
If coming off the fourth season of a rookie scale contract, and salary was at or above the estimated average salary, 200% of previous salary.
If coming off the fourth season of a rookie scale contract, and salary was below the estimated average salary, 250% of previous salary.
If coming off the third season of a rookie scale contract, the maximum amount that the team can pay under the Bird exception.

Early Bird: If coming off the second season of a rookie scale contract, the maximum amount that the team can pay under the Bird exception.
Otherwise, 130% of previous salary.

Non-Bird: 120% of previous salary.


if so than do I assume both Zeller and Sully are on bird rights Holds?

if correct then

Zellers cap hold is 250% of his current 2.6M salary or $6.5M?

Sully's hold would be 250% of his $2.2M salary or $4.7M?


Turner would be a non birdcap hold or 120% of his $3.4m salary= $4.1M?

are those numbers correct for the holds?

Bird rights and cap holds are different things.  The cap hold amount on a player is a number used to calculate the team salary prior to his signing or being renounced.  The Bird rights exception is an amount that a team can pay the player and still go over the team salary cap.

The estimated average salary for 2015-16 is: $5.739 million. (reference Q32)  They are all under that, but it only matters for Sully.  According to this:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38

(cap hold = free agent amount)


Sully has been with us all 4 years, so he is full Larry Bird.  His highest raise is determined by those rules.
He is coming off his 4th year of his rookie contract. Last year he made: $2,269,260
Sully's cap hold multiplier is: 250%.  2.5 times his salary = 5,673,150.00 or 5.67M

Zeller has been with us for 2 years plus 2 years transferred in his trade to the Celtics, so he is full Larry Bird. His highest raise is determined by those rules.
He is coming off his 4th year of his rookie contract. Last year he made: $2,616,975
Zeller's cap hold multiplier is: 250%.  2.5 times his salary = 6,542,437.50 or 6.54M

Evan Turner has been with us for the last 2 years, so he is Early Bird (all others). His highest raise is determined by those rules.
He is a  7 year veteran player.  Last year he made: $3,425,510
Turner's cap hold multiplier is: 130%.  1.3 times his salary = 4,453,163 or 4.45M

Note, I carry it out to three digits because it could be significant.

That's what I found.  Assuming my math is correct.

gyso

Q38 also says,

A restricted free agent is included in team salary by the greatest of:
•His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
•The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 44)3
•The first-year salary in a first refusal exercise notice (a notice given to the player that the team is exercising its right of first refusal by matching an offer sheet (see question number 44)

Turner is unrestricted, but Sully and Zeller are restricted.  I do not know what either of their QO's are.  I don't want to figure those out, either.  If anybody reads about what they are, please post it here.  

If the QO is larger than the free agent amount, the QO is the cap hold.

gyso

gyso wrote:Q38 also says,

A restricted free agent is included in team salary by the greatest of:
•His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
•The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 44)3
•The first-year salary in a first refusal exercise notice (a notice given to the player that the team is exercising its right of first refusal by matching an offer sheet (see question number 44)

Turner is unrestricted, but Sully and Zeller are restricted.  I do not know what either of their QO's are.  I don't want to figure those out, either.  If anybody reads about what they are, please post it here.  

If the QO is larger than the free agent amount, the QO is the cap hold.

gyso

gyso,

If you go to the Celtics salary page on www.basketballinsiders.com you will see the restricted free agents QO's and the cap holds for each player.

Thanks for the link there... and good info as always Gyso

so to combine all the info

Turners' HOLD is $4.45M until he signs a new contract or we renounce him.

Sully's HOLD is $5.67M but his QO is only $4.43M

Zellers' HOLD is $3.4M with his QO at $3.69M

so taking the HIGHEST of each player we have $13.81M in cap holds for our own Free agents.

PLUS the cap holds for the three first round draft picks (around $8M I think).

which puts us sitting at right about $74M in total cap space used.

which takes me back to my original thoughts about the Gasol signing.

by renouncing Turner and Sully we free up slightly more than $10M in cap holds , putting us with a bit more than $20M free to sign him.

Since we have a QO on Zeller, I would assume we could match any offer ( if we wanted) even if it meant going over the cap.

Or we can just sign him to a multi year extension, since we have retained his rights......?

now my head hurts

tjmakz wrote:

gyso wrote:Q38 also says,

A restricted free agent is included in team salary by the greatest of:
•His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
•The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 44)3
•The first-year salary in a first refusal exercise notice (a notice given to the player that the team is exercising its right of first refusal by matching an offer sheet (see question number 44)

Turner is unrestricted, but Sully and Zeller are restricted.  I do not know what either of their QO's are.  I don't want to figure those out, either.  If anybody reads about what they are, please post it here.  

If the QO is larger than the free agent amount, the QO is the cap hold.

gyso

gyso,

If you go to the Celtics salary page on www.basketballinsiders.com you will see the restricted free agents QO's and the cap holds for each player.

TJ,

Thanks for the link.  I used to use ShamSports.com for team and player salary info, but I think they closed down.  I will now use bbinsiders as a source of info.

There is also this about QO's:

Qualifying Offers: Tyler Zeller ($3,695,169), Jared Sullinger ($4,433,683), Luigi Datome ($2,275,000), Gigi Datome ($2,175,000)

They list Datome twice with different first names and different numbers.  I am sure there is only one Datome.

The bbinsiders cap holds on Sully and Turner agree with my math and process.  I now think they got Zeller's right.  Nobody's right all the time, especially me!

{EDIT: ZELLER IS FULL BIRD.  PRIOR YEARS TRANSFERED SO HE IS A FULL BIRD RIGHTS PLAYER, COMING OFF THE 4TH YEAR OF HIS ROOKIE CONTRACT.}

gyso

kdp,

"now my head hurts"

Mine too, you got that right!!

gyso

kdp59 wrote:since this is a wish list thread, I will put out an option I think makes us a contender now and preserves our future options. Putting my various thoughts about the off-season into one post

Trade for Butler (if he is on the block) . Sending the Nets pick (not 1 or 2) , Bradley, the top second round pick and our own first in 2018.

draft the following players:

16. D. Valentine or T. Prince
23. D. Jones or D. Stone
35. A. Zizic (draft and stash)
45. Damion Lee- Competes with Young for roster spot)


renounce the rights to Sully and Turner, giving us about $21M in cap space in the new league year.

Sign Pau Gasol to a 2 year deal at $20M per year.

Resign Zeller to a 2 year deal at $5M or less per. (corection: use a cap exception to resign Zeller here, if required).

roster next year:

Gasol
Zeller
#23 pick
Amir
Mickey
Kelly O
Jerebko
Crowder
#16 pick
Young or second round pick
Butler
Thomas
Smart
Rozier
Hunter

Cap space the next year at about $35M , due to cap rising about $20M and Amir and Jerebko's deals expiring alone.

Everytime you talk about trading someone why is Bradley always at the top of your list?

Do you think Butler is superstar level player? I do not because he is a poor 3 point shooter for a shooting guard. Plus he makes $17+ mill per year while Bradley makes half of that. I'm sorry but the dollars nor the value makes sense. Were you by chance an adviser to the Nets organization? Your trade proposal has fleece me written all over it.

dboss

I think DA should draft to cover the real possibility that Turner, Sully and Zeller and/or Johnson  may not be on the team.

Are you satisfied with the overall play at our PF position?

Are you satisfied with the overall play at center?

Are you satisfied with our perimeter scoring off the bench?

Would a long athletic SF that can shoot the ball and defend his position be useful.

The truth of the matter is a hard pill to swallow because we love our team and really appreciate the players mostly but the reality is that we need multiple upgrades.  We need to rebuild our entire front line.

You like Crowder?  I like him but he is just keeping the space occupied until Danny can get a better SF.

You like Amir and sully and Zeller and Ko.  They are pretty good guys but they are not good enough.

We are still in a rebuilding mode.  So draft picks will be part of the rebuild and since there is talent available to really address multiple weaknesses you have to use them.  Then you can deal with who stays and who goes.

Draft as though all of your free agents will be gone.

dboss

I think Bradley has peaked and reached his potential now. He is an all defensive player for sure and has improved his scoring to become one of our top scoring options.

BUT

he is still inconsistent and sometimes fades away in games on offense.

his $8M salary means he could be coveted by other teams.

Smart brings the same level (maybe better) on the defensive end. so I see Bradley as replaceable in a move for an elite scorer ( Butler, Cousins, etc) in any trade.

Butler is far and away a better offensive player than Bradley and is a guy who "wants" the ball with the game on the line...IMO. Butler has scored over 20per game the past few seasons is a very good defensive player who also has the size to match up with many small forwards ( unlike Bradley).


I like Bradley myself but you have to give up something to get something. I see Bradley as the best expendable piece we have, that has good value around the league ( I am guessing of course).

steve3344 wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/summer-agenda--boston-celtics-183710988.html

thanks Steve, thats a great article that lays out everything we need to know for this off-season..


Gyso....any way to sticky this link at the top , so we can reference it easy as needed?

kdp59 wrote:

steve3344 wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/summer-agenda--boston-celtics-183710988.html

thanks Steve, thats a great article that lays out everything we need to know for this off-season..


Gyso....any way to sticky this link at the top  , so we can reference it easy as needed?

kdp,

I think I got it right now, I made a sticky out of your new thread.

BTW, the article that Steve references here suggests that Zeller is full Bird rights.  Now that I think of it, it isn't only the time with one team that adds towards the 3 years to get full Bird.  Prior years and a trade pass on those prior years.  Going to a new team as a free agent resets the time, going to a new team in a trade transfers service.

I will have to edit the post above.  BBinsiders got it right after all.

gyso

I have to come back to my wish list.  Is it ok if I change my wish list.  I wish I may I wish I might.

Valentine must be considered as one of the top players to consider at 16.  He has actually compared himself to Evan Turner.  And I can see the comparison but i think Valentine is better because he is a knock down 3 point shooter.  He can run the offense and he hits the glass.  If Boston drafts Valentine it will make Turner expendable.  The Celtics will probably save a ton of money and at the same time they will be adding a solid outside shooter. Valentine is not that long SF but I think he is long enough to play some 3 and skilled enough to play some 1 and some 2. His value is way underated because he is a multi-skilled, multi-positional player.

My wish list has us adding 2 shooters and 2 max players but is that realistic?  Is it realistic to think that Danny is only going to draft 2 players and make the other 6 picks disappear like a fart in the wind?  Can he pry 2 top free agents away from their respective teams?  

We hope that he can but what if he cannot?  Therefore the Celtics should draft as though they will not be adding any significant free agents over the summer.  I think 4 draft picks will do the trick.  He can sell 2 second round picks and use the other 2 second rounders in a draft and stash move.

So who are the 4 players that need to go so that we can add 4 new players (all rookies) to the team?

I know this is probably driving a few members nuts but I am dead serious.  I can think of 2 players that should be gone.  Sully and Turner.  Do we really want to pay Turner $12-$15 mill per???

Young has a small contract so he can be bought out easily.  That's 3 players.  Those are the obvious ones.  We need one more. One more between Hunter, Johnson, Zeller and Jerebko. Maybe Danny can also buy out Hunter and we get to keep Johnson Zeller and Jerebko.

I like this.

We could add Hield, Valentine, Maker on the fly, and the best available center with the 1st pick in round 2. By keeping both Johnson and Zeller we would be ok at center and when we want to go really small we got Mickey ready to step up I think.

This maintains cap flexibility for perhaps a mid season trade and we still have the best of our remaining draft assets.

dboss

dboss