Does Terry Rozier's Improvement Make Avery Bradley Trade Bait?

You have to give up something of value to get something of value.  If we want a high quality starter (e.g. Boogie, Blake Griffin, Jimmy Butler) we're going to have to give up someone we really like.  Nobody is going to give us an all-star, or an almost all-star, for green flotsam and jetsam.  There are those who would love to trade Kelly and Gerald Green, and maybe they will be traded, but we're not going to get a clear upgrade for them and picks.  We're going to have to give more than that.  The question is "Who?".  Well some of that will depend upon who is inbound but it could/will also depend upon where we have depth.

Rozier is Avery Bradley 2.0.  Same height, 6'2", longer wingspan, 6'9" vs 6'7" and a committed and great defender too.  Rozier is a better rebounder/minute (6.8 rebs/36 vs 6.7/36 for Bradley despite Bradley rebounding WAY above his career average this year).  Rozier is a much better ball handler than Bradley.  Rozier brings the ball up court fast and he likes to go all the way to the rim with it too.  Rozier isn't as good a shooter as Bradley but Bradley wasn't a good shooter early in his career neither.  Rozier is still shooting 35.4% from 3 and that's pretty good, albeit not as good as Bradley's 39.8%.  Rozier's assist-to-TO ratio is >3:1, Bradley's is 1.5:1.

We don't have solid depth behind Jae Crowder. Jaylen Brown is still too new and Gerald Green isn't getting off the bench. Demetrius Jackson could be depth behind IT but we can't know that because he doesn't play. So, where would we be comfortable giving up a starter because we are comfortable with the depth behind them being able to step up?

Rozier's game pretty much mirrors Bradleys, lacking only the experience to take him up to the next level.  If we had to give up Bradley to get a high quality player, would you give up Bradley?

For the record, I love Avery Bradley's game, this is not intended as a putdown. I'm just asking if he is the one we can most afford to give up to get upgrades in other areas we need them.


bob


.

I would hate to see AB leave, right now Roziers defense and shooting is not as good as Bradleys, he can improve, but Bradley's defense is significantly better....would all depend on who your bringing in. If Rozier can show that much improvement, maybe IT is the better bait?

NO

TR is not close to being a quality starting 2 guard.

He is at least 2 years away and Bradley was a better shooter than Rozier. Bradley only played 31 games averaging only 5.2 MPG as a rookie. In years 2,4, 5, 6 and here in year 7 he has proven to be a consistent shooter from distance. So I do not understand Bob's comment that AB was not a good shooter earlier in his career.

The numbers prove otherwise. Bradley came in with great form on his jumper from day one. Each year he keeps adding things to his game. Rozier is still searching for his shot.

Rozier is still very confused running the offense and he has not mastered how to run the high pick and roll. He spends a lot of time fiddling and diddling with the ball. Again he is playing PG so the notion that he is a replacement for Bradley at the 2 seems odd to me.

If we are going to replace Bradley, we should look at a 6' 5" + 2 guard.

dboss

I was onboard with trading Bradley in deals for Jimmy Butler or Khris Middleton at the time of the draft b/c you'd upgrade the SG position with a player who is of similar age and under longer contractual control. 

I don't see the Bulls trading Butler for Bradley and the Nets pick, but if they would do that trade, would we Celtic fans want to?

If Bradley were needed to be in the package for Boogie (Blake would be a FA only type acquisition, the Clippers aren't trading him this season) then you have to make that move. You'd think they'd want Rozier over AB, given he's a younger guy with a contract that makes him a restricted FA after 2 more seasons, not an URA after one. But who knows. 

Would you trade Bradley, Brown, Yabusele, Zeller and the Nets unprotected 2017 pick for Boogie? I'd think long and hard about it. That's a lot to give up though. Much rather it be Rozier and a future #1 that will fall in the 20's or something than AB. 

Yet I'd be confident that Rozier, Smart and a dusted off Gerald Green could replace a good deal of what Bradley had been giving, and that upgrading from Zeller to Boogie (and reducing the Jerebko/Amir/Olynyk mins in the process) would have a bigger positive impact than the subsequent downgrade the team would experience in the backcourt with the loss of AB.

Ram

Interesting scenarios.

Butler would be an upgrade over Bradley mainly do to size and size does matter but salaries matter as well.

"Yet I'd be confident that Rozier, Smart and a dusted off Gerald Green could replace a good deal of what Bradley had been giving, and that upgrading from Zeller to Boogie (and reducing the Jerebko/Amir/Olynyk mins in the process) would have a bigger positive impact than the subsequent downgrade the team would experience in the backcourt with the loss of AB."

I have to respectfully disagree.  Bradley gives us a combination of a lot of skills which now includes damn good rebounding.  Rozier is unproven off guard and Smart cannot hit the broad side of a barn.  Green is not going to be on this team next year.  Even if the Celtics made a trade for Cousins which i think is more unlikely since they signed Al to a long term contract, the Celtics still need major upgrades at PF and with or without Bradley we still need a scorer off the bench.

If Boston had a sure fire 2 guard on the roster right now then moving Bradley in a bigger deal would make sense.  In any event Boogie would not be on my wish list and my reasons have been well documented.

I think Boston should upgrade their entire front line except for Horford.  The entire bunch are all bench players and none of them are dependable.  

The best way to do that is to sign a free agent over the summer like Serge and use the Nets pick this year to finally draft a real baller.  At the beginning of the season i thought that we were a top 4 or 5 team.  I was wrong.  We may be a top 10 ball club but not top 5.  Therefore it is very unlikely that we can become elite this year and it makes no sense to piss away draft picks that should be used to draft better talent.

dboss

Bradley is our biggest trading chip, and has been for some time.  He would have his highest value to a team needing a defense oriented guard to get to the next level later this year.

Of course, that also describes the Celtics.  If dealing him brings back a proven defense oriented/rebounding forward, sure... as long as you're comfortable giving most of his minutes to Smart and giving Rozier a split as well.

Know of any teams deep at forward (PF/C) who Bradley might help get to the conference finals or championship round?

Terry should replace IT who should be traded while still quite valuable. I was at tonight's game in Orlando, and it was SO obvious the offense as a whole ran better with Marcus and Terry at point rather than Isaiah who dribbles ten seconds off the clock most possessions. Although we were 1-17 on threes in the first half we were only 1 point down because we would make 3 or 4 passes and then score and had a good interior game. On D we were much better than with IT on the court.

Amir played great. Terry, Avery, and Marcus played great. And it was a joy to watch Jalen, both before and during the game. I was lucky to get a VIP tour of the Amway Center and got to watch the 5 to 6 p.m. pre-pre-game warmup, and Jalen stood out as the preeminent athlete on the entire floor, Celts and Magic combined. I have treated several world class athletes and Jalen belongs in their ranks. We should never trade him, well at least not in the next ten years. He is very smart, very quick, and also quick to recover from his rookie mistakes. His monster dunk in the game was but one of his great plays, many of which were on defense. Again a joy to watch, a joy to behold.

worcester wrote:Terry should replace IT who should be traded while still quite valuable. I was at tonight's game in Orlando, and it was SO obvious the offense as a whole ran better with Marcus and Terry at point rather than Isaiah who dribbles ten seconds off the clock most possessions. Although we were 1-17 on threes in the first half we were only 1 point down because we would make 3 or 4 passes and then score and had a good interior game. On D we were much better than with IT on the court.

Amir played great. Terry, Avery, and Marcus played great. And it was a joy to watch Jalen, both before and during the game. I was lucky to get a VIP tour of the Amway Center and got to watch the 5 to 6 p.m. pre-pre-game warmup, and Jalen stood out as the preeminent athlete on the entire floor, Celts and Magic combined. I have treated several world class athletes and Jalen belongs in their ranks. We should never trade him, well at least not in the next ten years. He is very smart, very quick, and also quick to recover from his rookie mistakes. His monster dunk in the game was but one of his great plays, many of which were on defense. Again a joy to watch, a joy to behold.

My sentiments exactly. I've suspected for some time that IT has been the brake holding back this team's development.

When IT plays it's like at the opera where when the diva gets to sing her big aria everyone stands around and waits for her to finish. This is exactly what happens when IT stands around dribbling the ball. This is how we get great offensive play NOT!

O.K., it's only one game and Orlando ran out of gas playing a back-to back but anyone with eyes can see an enormous difference in how the team played on both ends of the floor: magnificent ball movement and magnificent defense. If IT's injury keeps him out for a while and the team continues playing like this, then his days here are numbered. Smart, Bradley, Rozier and in reserve Jackson are more than able to make up for most of IT's production. More importantly they don't have to make up for his entire production because everyone else is involved in the offense. Last night's game gave me the feeling that this team, on this night, was Al Horford's team. I prefer it to what we have seen up to now.

Berlin-T

It seems that Ainge and IT have a bond here, so I think it would take a very big deal to get Danny to move him.

as for the premise of this thread:

I've also always seen Bradley as the likeliest player of value to be moved in any major trade.

as for Smart not being a good enough scorer/shooter to play the 2 spot....you are missing he will be playing with Thomas on the floor mostly. IT shoots/scores like a 2.
Smart's defense replaces Bradley.
If you look at it as Smart being the "Point" and IT being the "scorer", it makes more sense.

Rozier HAS proven to be ready to be the BU Point now Could Brown be ready for expanded minutes in the "scoring Guard" role?

who knows if a major trade will happened this year, but I do think IF it does that Bradley is likely to be the key player we move.

One comment about the offense moving better without IT.

On any given possession or even any given night picked at random, these two youngsters might look ready to take the next step - but after a sample size of ONE meaningless game in December against a mediocre team?  Some of you are ready to cut bait on IT? Really?

May I remind you - that in the play offs, when the game slows down and becomes more focused on set plays and execution - you need one (maybe more) GO TO SCORERS and neither Smart nor Rosier could carry Thomas' bag in that regard.

The Celtics are a better team with IT on the court AND he is the kind of charismatic player that other Free Agents want to play with.  Horford is here in big part, because of Thomas.  He has also become the face of the franchise, something that was sorely lacking since the exit of Paul Pierce.  As a marketing professional, you simply cannot underestimate the value of a "face" with a "story" like IT has - the Celtics are printing money with the sale of Thomas shirts.

Potential is one thing and I like Rozier as a future star.  But Thomas is a proven NBA scorer and a leader - which cannot be underestimated when you are talking about such a young team.   100% opposed to moving IT at this point.

Us GM's are always in search of the next trade.  

By the end of this season we should have a much better idea about everything.  I like the versatility of our 4 guard rotation.  

If AB is arguably our best player given his offense/defense why would we want to trade him?

You should not trade your best player unless they are declining or if you cannot afford to pay them.  The idea is to keep the best players and upgrade the rest.  It takes time to do that and Boston still has sufficient assets to make that happen without moving your best players.

dboss

Good comments all around, but I'm with Worcester. IT's trade value is high now, and building an offense around a 5' 9'' shoot-first pg (IMO) won't get us the next banner. I admire the man, like his guts, would trade him as part of a package to get the next piece, a fierce rebounder at least a foot taller.

Rozier has worked hard this part summer and is slowly becoming a great 2 way player at point guard, not so much 2 guard.

As for Bradley, he is playing 2 guard and is a good scorer and great defender. I believe he does not affect Bradley at all as he is more a PG then 2 guard.  

Unless the Celtics acquire a 2 guard scorer Bradley his a keeper.  Smart is a tough nose defender and more physical then Bradley however he cannot shoot consistently.  If he becomes a better scorer at 2 guard and who is taller then Bradley 6'4 vs 6'2, then Bradley could be included in a trade package.

I am in full agreement with MrKleen, IT is a keeper for the foreseeable future. He is quick, he can create his own shot and boy can he score. However, he is a defensive liability on the floor with the current composition of players on the floor with him. However, move Horford to PF at 6'11 and get a stud at center at 7 feet who is a rim protector and IT defensive liabilities diminish
112288

dboss wrote:Ram

Interesting scenarios.

Butler would be an upgrade over Bradley mainly do to size and size does matter but salaries matter as well.

"Yet I'd be confident that Rozier, Smart and a dusted off Gerald Green could replace a good deal of what Bradley had been giving, and that upgrading from Zeller to Boogie (and reducing the Jerebko/Amir/Olynyk mins in the process) would have a bigger positive impact than the subsequent downgrade the team would experience in the backcourt with the loss of AB."

I have to respectfully disagree.  Bradley gives us a combination of a lot of skills which now includes damn good rebounding.  Rozier is unproven off guard and Smart cannot hit the broad side of a barn.  Green is not going to be on this team next year.  Even if the Celtics made a trade for Cousins which i think is more unlikely since they signed Al to a long term contract, the Celtics still need major upgrades at PF and with or without Bradley we still need a scorer off the bench.

If Boston had a sure fire 2 guard on the roster right now then moving Bradley in a bigger deal would make sense.  In any event Boogie would not be on my wish list and my reasons have been well documented.

I think Boston should upgrade their entire front line except for Horford.  The entire bunch are all bench players and none of them are dependable.  

The best way to do that is to sign a free agent over the summer like Serge and use the Nets pick this year to finally draft a real baller.  At the beginning of the season i thought that we were a top 4 or 5 team.  I was wrong.  We may be a top 10 ball club but not top 5.  Therefore it is very unlikely that we can become elite this year and it makes no sense to piss away draft picks that should be used to draft better talent.

dboss

I  can see your points, but I still think if you remove Bradley and up the minutes of Rozier, Smart, Brown and Green after adding Cousins and at the expense of removing Zeller and lowering the minutes of Olynyk, Johnson and Jerebko that the team will be better in the long-run. 

If you disagree, you are basically saying that Bradley is a superior player to Cousins. 

IMO Smart as a defense first PG/SG who can and has played big enough minutes to deserve starting is better than Olynyk as an offense first PF/C who has proved too inconsistent to deserve starting mins when given the chance. 

Rozier as an up and coming PG/SG with multiple skills who seems good at everything and great at nothing is at least the equal of Jerebko, who brings the same kind of swiss army knife repertoire to the SF/PF spot off the bench. Neither should deserve 6th-7th man mins (like Smart/Oly do) but both are very good 9th/10th men. 

Green as a veteran scorer and Brown as a young athletic defender/slasher both bring the types of things to the wing that Amir brings by himself to the post. This is the biggest gamble of such a trade, assuming these two guys will contribute a combined 20-24 mins of higher level bball than they have thus far (if Bradley were gone). Amir gets those mins in the frontcourt, but probably deserves only 16-18 and would be more effective in fewer mins and more defined bench role if Cousins were here. 

So, I think I trust the collective skills of Smart, Rozier, Brown and Green to combine to replace Bradley more than I trust Olynyk, Zeller, Johnson and Jerebko to be the bigs we need around Horford to get us past the 2nd rd. Cousins 25p and 12b would prove to be a huge difference maker, if he has a winning attitude and can play well alongside Al of course. Noel is still a more preferable option to me, since the cost is less and it saves cap space for Gordon Hayward.

Everybody keeps calling Brown a Guard. He isn`t. He doesn`t handle the ball particularly well and he`s certainly not ready to be a distributor. Don`t get me wrong. I love the kid, but suggesting that he , Smart and Gerald Green ,and Rozier , a point Guard , can replace AB is crazy talk. Which one of them is going to stretch a defense with their shooting? Which one or which combination of them is going to be the on the ball defender he is? Bradley is only 25. Smart is a great competitor and might be a difference maker on a better team, but right now, I`d trade him before Bradley. Avery has been around a while, but he`s only 25 and has gotten better every year he has been in the league. I don`t know what Smart`s ceiling is, but unless he learns to shoot the basketball , I am puzzled as  to how anybody can value him more than Bradley. I`m not saying AB is untouchable but this rush to trade him seems unseemly. Nobody is saying Bradley is better than Cousins. As soon as that one for one trade is offered , count me in. That goes for pretty much everyone else on the roster too.

Totally agree jrleftfoot. AB is a keeper. What puzzles me is why Green is still in green. He really has done nothing for us on D and very little on O. Plus he takes some of Jalen's minutes. Yes, Jalen is not a guard, and the wuestion remains, "What can Brown do for you?" I say, A lot! He is a great player to be.

I would move IT over Bradley, I like Smart and Rozier as a very formidable PG tandem, with AB that is a fearsome 3 guard defensive rotation too. I like how much better our defense would be all game long with those 3 getting the extended minutes. I know IT is tough as nails, he is a volume shooter/scorer that can get hot, but has alot of cold streaks too. Eventually we want to get more scoring out of our frontcourt and Jaylen Brown as he develops and other players we will be acquiring by draft or trade.

worcester wrote:Totally agree jrleftfoot. AB is a keeper. What puzzles me is why Green is still in green. He really has done nothing for us on D and very little on O. Plus he takes some of Jalen's minutes. Yes, Jalen is not a guard, and the wuestion remains, "What can Brown do for you?" I say, A lot! He is a great player to be.

I was really rooting for Green. Met him for a minute in Coconut Grove when he was a rookie and the Celts were in Miami to play the Heat .I approached him and Orien Green with my girlfriend`s  teenage son. Nice kid. You`re righ though .He`s not contributing.

jrleftfoot wrote:Everybody keeps calling Brown a Guard. He isn`t. He doesn`t handle the ball particularly well and he`s certainly not ready to be a distributor. Don`t get me wrong. I love the kid, but suggesting that he , Smart and Gerald Green ,and Rozier , a point Guard , can replace AB is crazy talk. Which one of them is going to stretch a defense with their shooting? Which one or which combination of them is going to be the on the ball defender he is? Bradley is only 25. Smart is a great competitor and might be a difference maker on a better team, but right now, I`d trade him before Bradley. Avery has been around a while, but he`s only 25 and has gotten better every year he has been in the league. I don`t know what Smart`s ceiling is, but unless he learns to shoot the basketball , I am puzzled as  to how anybody can value him more than Bradley. I`m not saying AB is untouchable but this rush to trade him seems unseemly. Nobody is saying Bradley is better than Cousins. As soon as that one for one trade is offered , count me in. That goes for pretty much everyone else on the roster too.

Hmmmm

1. I never said those guys could replace him. I said the combined upping of their minutes if Avery departed would not have a more negative affect on the team than the positive one you'd be getting by lowering the mins of Olynyk, Jerebko and Amir with the arrival of Cousins. 

2. I am in no rush to ship away Bradley and prefer to trade Rozier and a future draft pick than Avery in any scenario offered. But as you say, if he is needed to complete a deal for Cousins you have to pull the trigger. 

3. It was implied that Avery was better than Cousins, b/c by adding Cousins and lowering the mins of Olynyk, Amir and Jerebko posters said the team would be worse b/c Smart, Rozier and Green couldn't pick up enough of Avery's slack so what they lost in the backcourt would not be eclipsed by what they gained in the frontcourt. 

4. Brown would not be on the team if we traded for Cousins, he'd be a King. Which I originally mentioned then later discussed him as someone who'd help replace Bradley, which was an error. Yes he is currently a SF only, but with all his talent would be expected to help replace AB at SG if he happened to still be on the roster at a time when Bradley was not. 

5. Avery Bradley is 26, not 25