Talking about "Bigs"

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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by swish on Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:42 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Swish we are in agreement that Russell may not have put up such astronomical numbers in not only this era, but also in the 80's and 90's as he did in the 60's. I think if Barkley and Karl Malone were playing in the 60's the same time as Baylor, they would have put up even better numbers than Baylor. Having said that Wilt, Russell, Barkley and Rodman would still all rule the boards today, they just wouldn't be putting up numbers like 22.5 rebounds a game.

The rebounding numbers for Russ are very inflated because Russ played so many minutes per game ( raising his per game ave) plus because they shot so poorly back then there were many more rebounds plus the fact that they took many more shots per game. The only way to level the playing field is to use the numbers obtained by using 36 minutes.
Russell's best year for rebounding was 1963-64 when he averaged 24.7 rebounds per game. Based on 36 minutes , that's 20.0 per game. That year the average rebounds per game, per team was 58.2 times 2 teams equals 116.4. Russell's 20 rebounds was o.1718 % of the 116.4 rebounds in a game. In 2016-17 Drummond averaged 16.7 rebounds per 36 minutes while the league average was 87 rebounds per game. Multiply Russell's Rebounding percentage of 0.1718 times the number rebounds in 2016-17 - 87 and it shows that Russell would account for 14.9 rebounds compared to the 16.7 that Drummond registered.

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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by wideclyde on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:45 am

Being a Cs fan for so long, I would STILL rather have Bill Russell on my team today at age 78 than Andre Drummond.


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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:30 am

Russell should be applauded for playing all those minutes back in the day, not nit picked. How's this stat? he won 11 championships in 13 years....and your comparing him to Drummond?
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:43 am

Olajuwon was not the biggest center back in the day, neither was Rodman at his position, those guys could still defend and rebound today, their numbers would probably be even bigger IMHO. Russell was an Olympic level track competitor, as was Wilt. If those guys had access to all the modern training methods and nutrition of today they would be as good and dominant as any of the players of today.
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by swish on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:02 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Russell should be applauded for playing all those minutes back in the day, not nit picked. How's this stat? he won 11 championships in 13 years....and your comparing him to Drummond?

cowens,


* all those minutes ! No physical contact back then - even seniors run in 26 mile marathons - no surprise there.
* 11 championships ! A team honor - No team has ever come close to being blessed with so many HALL OF FAMERS - as many as 7 on his team in one year - no surprise there.
* Comparing Drummond to him ! - Yes - In regards to rebounds, which is the issue here.

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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by worcester on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:09 am

The uselessness of this discussion confounds me. The past is passed. Moving on.
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by swish on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:23 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Olajuwon was not the biggest center back in the day, neither was Rodman at his position, those guys could still defend and rebound today, their numbers would probably be even bigger IMHO. Russell was an Olympic level track competitor, as was Wilt. If those guys had access to all the modern training methods and nutrition of today they would be as good and dominant as any of the players of today.

* Olajuwon and Rodman - Would probably play today and I suspect do quite well.
* If those guys had access to modern training and nutrition - which they didn't - but thanks for pointing out a couple of the reasons why there is a huge gap between the Russell years and the modern day player.

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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:30 am

worcester wrote:The uselessness of this discussion confounds me. The past is passed. Moving on.

I think Sam would want me to defend the Russell Legacy


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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by worcester on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:32 am

To have to do that is absurd. No one ever needs to defend Russell's legacy. Ever.
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:33 am

swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Olajuwon was not the biggest center back in the day, neither was Rodman at his position, those guys could still defend and rebound today, their numbers would probably be even bigger IMHO. Russell was an Olympic level track competitor, as was Wilt. If those guys had access to all the modern training methods and nutrition of today they would be as good and dominant as any of the players of today.

* Olajuwon and Rodman - Would probably play today and I suspect do quite well.
* If those guys had access to modern training and nutrition - which they didn't -  but thanks for pointing out a couple of the reasons why there is a huge gap between the Russell years and the modern day player.

 swish

so we are in agreement
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:36 am

worcester wrote:To have to do that is absurd. No one ever needs to defend Russell's legacy. Ever.

someone hinted his era was all skin and bones
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by swish on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:43 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Olajuwon was not the biggest center back in the day, neither was Rodman at his position, those guys could still defend and rebound today, their numbers would probably be even bigger IMHO. Russell was an Olympic level track competitor, as was Wilt. If those guys had access to all the modern training methods and nutrition of today they would be as good and dominant as any of the players of today.

cowens,

Here's a quote from Bob Petite - 6'9" 205 lb center-forward, dated Oct 16 1991

" Players from my era would be totally different types of athletes today," says Pettit, a two-time MVP in the late '50s as a center-forward for the St. Louis Hawks. "I didn't play until I was a junior in high school. I didn't play AAU ball or in summer leagues. My coach in high school was an assistant football coach. If I played today I'd start at 10 years old. I'd participate in weight programs, clinics, the Nike camp. I'd be much stronger and weigh about 265. [Pettit played at 215.] Who would I relate to today? Someone like Karl Malone. Strong. Pounding the boards. I'd have a three-point shot, everything. I wouldn't have any more drive or desire, though. Every second I played on the court, I was ready to play and wanted to play."

Pretty much supports your your thoughts.

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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by cowens/oldschool on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:46 am

swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Olajuwon was not the biggest center back in the day, neither was Rodman at his position, those guys could still defend and rebound today, their numbers would probably be even bigger IMHO. Russell was an Olympic level track competitor, as was Wilt. If those guys had access to all the modern training methods and nutrition of today they would be as good and dominant as any of the players of today.

  cowens,

Here's a quote from Bob Petite - 6'9" 205 lb center-forward, dated Oct 16 1991

     " Players from my era would be totally different types of athletes today," says Pettit, a two-time MVP in the late '50s as a center-forward for the St. Louis Hawks. "I didn't play until I was a junior in high school. I didn't play AAU ball or in summer leagues. My coach in high school was an assistant football coach. If I played today I'd start at 10 years old. I'd participate in weight programs, clinics, the Nike camp. I'd be much stronger and weigh about 265. [Pettit played at 215.] Who would I relate to today? Someone like Karl Malone. Strong. Pounding the boards. I'd have a three-point shot, everything. I wouldn't have any more drive or desire, though. Every second I played on the court, I was ready to play and wanted to play."

  Pretty much supports your your thoughts.

   swish

agree with Petit, and Dave Cowens could very easily play and play well today.

We should end it on that note.
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by swish on Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:27 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Olajuwon was not the biggest center back in the day, neither was Rodman at his position, those guys could still defend and rebound today, their numbers would probably be even bigger IMHO. Russell was an Olympic level track competitor, as was Wilt. If those guys had access to all the modern training methods and nutrition of today they would be as good and dominant as any of the players of today.

  cowens,

Here's a quote from Bob Petite - 6'9" 205 lb center-forward, dated Oct 16 1991

     " Players from my era would be totally different types of athletes today," says Pettit, a two-time MVP in the late '50s as a center-forward for the St. Louis Hawks. "I didn't play until I was a junior in high school. I didn't play AAU ball or in summer leagues. My coach in high school was an assistant football coach. If I played today I'd start at 10 years old. I'd participate in weight programs, clinics, the Nike camp. I'd be much stronger and weigh about 265. [Pettit played at 215.] Who would I relate to today? Someone like Karl Malone. Strong. Pounding the boards. I'd have a three-point shot, everything. I wouldn't have any more drive or desire, though. Every second I played on the court, I was ready to play and wanted to play."

  Pretty much supports your your thoughts.

   swish

agree with Petit, and Dave Cowens could very easily play and play well today.

We should end it on that note.

Final thoughts from my view point.
* What the 50's-60's Celtics accomplished will probably never be equaled - fantastic beyond belief.
* Is there not room to offer personal opinion as to how they stacked up with teams from other generations.
* I was 4 months away from 25 when Russell played his 1st game in Celtic green and those Russell years were the best years of my life as a lifetime Celtic fan.
* cowens - Thanks for a spirited conversation.

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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

Post by jrleftfoot on Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:42 pm

Enjoyed listening toyou guys. I guess reading, to be technical.
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Re: Talking about "Bigs"

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