The world is not flat..

...and I am really going to miss Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder,  worried we gave up too much but welcome to the Celtics Kyrie Irving. 

 Now let's go win a few d@med championships..

 

Matty wrote:...and I am really going to miss Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder,  worried we gave up too much but welcome to the Celtics Kyrie Irving. 

 Now let's go win a few d@med championships..

 

Matty,

Like it or not Kyrie Irving is a Celtic now. If he says the world is flat then the damn world is flat...


bob



.

Matty wrote:...and I am really going to miss Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder,  worried we gave up too much but welcome to the Celtics Kyrie Irving. 

 Now let's go win a few d@med championships..

 

Nov 6th and the 18th at the Hawks!

Shall we go to a game?

dboss

Matty,

Interesting title!

Now the real questions start, beginning with... 'can Kyrie fit in?'

He's not a big passer, not a ball movement guy.  We've become a ball movement team.  Kyrie thrives in ISOs; top numbers in the league in that department last year.  Stevens is going to have to reach deep into his chemistry kit to come up with some new ways to put this together.  Fortunately, he's creative.

Then there's the personality fit.  No debate from most sources; Kyrie is, to use a polite term, a little out there.  For the most part, that's OK.  You can be way out there as long as you get it done on the floor. As long as you're not so bizarre that teammates can't handle you for the time it takes to practice or play a game, it should be alright.

I think there's going to be an adjustment period with Kyrie that will be longer than what we've seen, or will see, from other players.  I think it could go as far as questioning is he a point or more of a wing.  He has valuable skills without a doubt.  It will be interesting to see how Brad puts this together.  I'm guessing the biggest individual test this year isn't for any given player, it's for Stevens.  I expect he'll be up to the task, and there should be some fun involved after what might be some early bumps in the road.

Regards

dboss wrote:

Matty wrote:...and I am really going to miss Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder,  worried we gave up too much but welcome to the Celtics Kyrie Irving. 

 Now let's go win a few d@med championships..

 

Nov 6th and the 18th at the Hawks!

Shall we go to a game?

dboss

 Dboss I'm planning on it. Will know for sure in the upcoming weeks, but I expect to be at both games. Love to see you andmrs. Dboss again.

Matty wrote:...and I am really going to miss Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder,  worried we gave up too much but welcome to the Celtics Kyrie Irving. 

 Now let's go win a few d@med championships..

 

I am also worried that we gave up too much. It is not at all clear to me that Kyrie is actually a better player than IT. Nobody has provided an explanation as to why this might be true beyond he is "younger" or he is "taller". While both observations are true, its not clear that either will translate into better play. Honestly, there is not much room for improvement on IT's season last year. Is Kyrie going to score more points or dish more dimes per game more efficiently? If so, it won't be by much. He is not a significantly better defender despite the fact that he is taller. He is almost definitely a worse team mate/team player/leader. Regarding the age thing - its not like IT is 33. He is 28, and likely still has 4 or 5 peak/really good years left. Maybe it was the "Brinks truck" comments, but if IT continues to deliver seasons like last year for 4 more years, isn't that worth a max contract? Thus, it does seem that we gave up too much - IT for Kyrie seems like a wash, so why throw in Jay, Zizic, and a likely high lottery pick?? The only thing that makes sense is that Danny and Brad think the hip thing is worse than they have let on, not only in terms of when IT returns this season, but also down the road. I wonder if they believe it has the potential to be a recurring issue that could impact IT's career? That would certainly explain everything...

If IT gets healthy by the second half of the year, he and Irving will have similar production per game.
Irving's style is not the style Boston ran last year.
I am sure Brad and Kyrie will spend countless hours trying to meld their talents and ideas as coach and star player.
To me, a huge key to the trade for Cleveland was getting Crowder.
He will take a lot of pressure off of LeBron in guarding the other teams best 3 or 4.
Jeff Green can be sent packing now that Cleveland has a much better 3/4 in Crowder.

This was a gutsy trade by Danny.
If the Brooklyn pick is #1 or #2, this trade will probably backfire on Boston.
Porter has all star potential and Bagley reminds me of a D'Andre Jordan who can hit 3 pointers.
Jordan can't hit anything outside of 5 feet.

I just watched the introductory press conference and I heard nothing to disagree with. Kyrie spoke with intelligence and feeling so I'm now a fan of his. These days I look for how someone dodges a question and turns it and Kyrie did not disappoint. I thought his answer about if he had talked with LeBron since the trade was perfect. Also his comments about no one carries the team and everyone needs to be accountable were about as good as can be. It is the coaching staffs responsibility to come up with the game plan. Not Danny and not the players. Kyrie knows that it his job to fit into the system and use that system to make his TEAM better and he sounds committed to that process. We will all miss those qualities that IT and Jae brought to their time in Boston. But the next time they walk through those doors at the TD Garden, it will be to get their butts kicked. This is going to be a very good team, a team that will win the East again, and then the ECF and be competitive in the Finals, more so than Cleveland was this year, IMO. As Brad said, there is only ONE expectation for the Boston Celtics and that is very true for THIS season. The doom and gloomers have every right to their wrong opinion. But stick to the facts, please. It is far from unanimous that this team can't win this year. We have a new core of players and by the all star break, there will be no doubt, only excitement.

Crowder will help Cleveland, no doubt, but after the Celts acquired Hayward (a deal I didn't cheer for) I worried how Crowder would react to losing his starter role. Last year he wasn't pleased when a Boston crowd cheered for Hayward, the Jazz opponent, so I think this might have been a locker room issue. Acquiring Irving, a perennial star, seems a better bet, even though it cost us IT and Zizik as well as Crowder. I think the throw-in second-round pick is just a face-saving measure for Cleveland (which is losing its second-best player, acquiring an undersized injured replacement). I do think IT has peaked after one great season, also that Brad (Irving's first excellent pro coach) will help Irving adjust, tighten his defense, etc. In Cleveland, Irving was overshadowed by the Lebron show. In Boston, he will be responsible for more and I think he's ready to grow into the role. Another bonus to the Irving trade is carving out more time for Tatum and Brown. Yes, I have green lenses on; I think we're five games better than last year, but as our greatest fan often observed, we'll know much more by April. Hawk

hawksnestbeach wrote:Crowder will help Cleveland, no doubt, but after the Celts acquired Hayward (a deal I didn't cheer for) I worried how Crowder would react to losing his starter role. Last year he wasn't pleased when a Boston crowd cheered for Hayward, the Jazz opponent, so I think this might have been a locker room issue. Acquiring Irving, a perennial star, seems a better bet, even though it cost us IT and Zizik as well as Crowder. I think the throw-in second-round pick is just a face-saving measure for Cleveland (which is losing its second-best player, acquiring an undersized injured replacement). I do think IT has peaked after one great season, also that Brad (Irving's first excellent pro coach) will help Irving adjust, tighten his defense, etc. In Cleveland, Irving was overshadowed by the Lebron show. In Boston, he will be responsible for more and I think he's ready to grow into the role. Another bonus to the Irving trade is carving out more time for Tatum and Brown. Yes, I have green lenses on; I think we're five games better than last year, but as our greatest fan often observed, we'll know much more by April. Hawk

All fair points, but you are basically suggesting moving Crowder was a major impetus for this trade. If so, then is giving up the Net's pick to move Crowder worth it?? Also, what if IT did peak, but this peak lasts 3 years? Two more years similar to last year would be difficult for anyone to improve on, Kyrie included. Now, maybe IT will decline, and then you are onto something. The only thing to suggest a decline though is the hip, otherwise IT seemed to actually be improving. Brad may get more out of Irving, but Irving's demand to get out of LeBron's shadow suggests he is more concerned with being the man than fitting into a team. Definitely with you on wanting to see more time carved out for Tatum and Brown. Clearly Danny is playing the long game - he believes this team will peak in 3 or so years, and that Kyrie's age is better aligned with this time frame. He may very well be right, but the NBA is inherently unpredictable more than a year or so out, and this trade wasn't the only way to plan for the future (for example, one might also like another top draft pick in next year's loaded draft). Don't get me wrong though, once the season kicks in, I will be pulling for the new number 11 to also be the last Celtic to ever wear that number - I'm getting fitted for a new pair of green-tinted glasses ASAP....

mulcogiseng wrote:I just watched the introductory press conference and I heard nothing to disagree with. Kyrie spoke with intelligence and feeling so I'm now a fan of his. These days I look for how someone dodges a question and turns it and Kyrie did not disappoint.  I thought his answer about if he had talked with LeBron since the trade was perfect. Also his comments about no one carries the team and everyone needs to be accountable were about as good as can be. It is the coaching staffs responsibility to come up with the game plan. Not Danny and not the players. Kyrie knows that it his job to fit into the system and use that system to make his TEAM better and he sounds committed to that process. We will all miss those qualities that IT and Jae brought to their time in Boston. But the next time they walk through those doors at the TD Garden, it will be to get their butts kicked. This is going to be a very good team, a team that will win the East again, and then the ECF and be competitive in the Finals, more so than Cleveland was this year, IMO. As Brad said, there is only ONE expectation for the Boston Celtics and that is very true for THIS season. The doom and gloomers have every right to their wrong opinion. But stick to the facts, please. It is far from unanimous that this team can't win this year. We have a new core of players and by the all star break, there will be no doubt, only excitement.

Also just watched the press conference, and I have to agree. Kyrie is not like I thought he would be at all. He seems quite thoughtful and introspective. Seems like a good dude. Before I thought Kyrie not only wanted to get out of Lebron's shadow, but that he wanted to go to a team where his shadow was cast over the organization. Based on what I heard though, maybe he wants to play on a team that isn't under any individuals shadow. He did a great job articulating how good a coach Brad is, and seems to definitely have a sense of Celtics history and lore. In particular, I liked the language he used - it was insightful, and a lot of it seemed like his own, rather than cliches (though they were some of those too, as there must be in a press conference). Seems like he is his own man. I guess you have to be to believe the world is flat - even that though suggests he likes to think about things and draw his own conclusions (unfortunately misguided in this case). The one problem I can foresee is that he strikes me as far more introverted than I expected, so he might have a hard time handling the PR aspects of being a team leader. IT was much more extroverted, and was such a natural with the press and fans - I don't see Kyrie having that same kind of easy charm. As long as he leads on the court, its cool with me. Also nice to understand his ties to the city; his old man played at BU where he wore number 11, and Kyrie has spent a fair amount of time here.

Check out the below stats for the game match ups between Crowder and Hayward during the years when Crowder was with the Celts - 1/26 15 through 1/3/17.

http://bkref.com/tiny/rzaKa

swish

hawksnestbeach wrote:Crowder will help Cleveland, no doubt, but after the Celts acquired Hayward (a deal I didn't cheer for) I worried how Crowder would react to losing his starter role. Last year he wasn't pleased when a Boston crowd cheered for Hayward, the Jazz opponent, so I think this might have been a locker room issue. Acquiring Irving, a perennial star, seems a better bet, even though it cost us IT and Zizik as well as Crowder. I think the throw-in second-round pick is just a face-saving measure for Cleveland (which is losing its second-best player, acquiring an undersized injured replacement). I do think IT has peaked after one great season, also that Brad (Irving's first excellent pro coach) will help Irving adjust, tighten his defense, etc. In Cleveland, Irving was overshadowed by the Lebron show. In Boston, he will be responsible for more and I think he's ready to grow into the role. Another bonus to the Irving trade is carving out more time for Tatum and Brown. Yes, I have green lenses on; I think we're five games better than last year, but as our greatest fan often observed, we'll know much more by April. Hawk

Hawk

I agree with everything that you have stated.

I would add that even if Hayward had not been added, Crowder was a piece that needed an upgrade.  Considering the number of SF added by Danny Crowder's days on this team were numbered.  Once Hayward signed it was clearly a fait accompli.

IT had a year for the ages but his career scoring was closer to 20 than to 30.  In the end age and size does matter.  IT played with the heart of a lion but that does not overcome his limitations.  

There is no argument from me that the Celtics gave up a lot or even that they could have used a different path.  

But what I see is a very productive off season where the Celtics have added two foundation players with a lot of tread life left.  An off season where Danny has placed tremendous long term value in the pups and still maintains a sufficient amount of assets to make the next deal when it comes along.

This team has been overhaul to take full advantage of the pace and space game.  Some things I expect to see

Multiple rotations with 2-3 SF
Undersized centers that can spread the floor
Extended minutes for a lot of young players
The starting 5 will play more minutes together collectively than last year ( No platooning)

dboss

Shamrock, I wouldn't go so far as to say that moving Crowder was a major impetus to the trade. But, as we'd already traded and drafted players for his slot, we could afford to let him go - even if he helps a rival. As for the Nets pick, the jury's out. I'll be rooting for the Nets every game this year unless they're playing the C's (just so we won't feel badly). Now, as to the Lakers, here's hoping they bottom out. Hawk

swish wrote:Check out the below stats for the game match ups between  Crowder and Hayward during the years when Crowder was with the Celts - 1/26 15 through 1/3/17.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/rzaKa

    swish

swish,

The only games that matter, if at all, are the 5 games that Jae was with the Celtics.  Why "if at all"?  Because of the different systems and roles they each played.  Jae's role with the Dallas Mavericks was much smaller than his with the Celtics and he played under Rick Carlisle, not Brad Stevens.  When he was in Boston, even, he played in a different system than Hayward did in Utah.  Put Jae on Cleveland and his performance could vary greatly, what does that have to do with his time here in Boston?  This is the danger of using historical data to project future results, it works only if "all other things being equal" which, with different players on different teams playing in different systems they aren't.  Quinn Snyder's system is not Brad Stevens', nor are their team rosters very similar.  Their front court, especially before we got Horford, is vastly superior to ours, and that changes how the games are played against each other.

Jae Crowder had an awful first game as a Celtic vs Utah, just 5 points in 15 minutes.  I don't know why.  The other games he played comparable minutes to Hayward.

In the 4 comparable-minutes games, /game numbers:

......................................Average mpg...................ppg..............fg%.............TRB.........ast..........TO........ast/TO
Jae Crowder.....................34:08.............................19.5.............56.3.............3.5...........2.0.........0.0.......infinity (any number/0 = infinity)
Gordon Hayward..............36:24..............................18.3.............39.3.............3.0..........3.75.......2.5........1.5:1

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with these stats were, but if they were intended to highlight how the gaining of an All-Star is an upgrade over a player who has not been an All-Star (and probably never will be) is an upgrade, I'm afraid it has only made me miss Jae Crowder more.

Let's hope that Hayward thrives in Brad's system like Jae did.  Maybe then his numbers will look better.


bob


.

The move to trade down to 3 and get another 1st rounder takes on added significance now that the Nets pick belongs to the Cavs.

However the odds are not particularly good for LA to fall between the 2-5 spot. I think they will finish the season 7-9 from the bottom and then we just need for the balls to land 2,3,4 or 5.

if we miss we would be looking at the Kings pick in 2019 (top 1 protected) Since the Kings are unlikely to be dramatically better, Boston should be able to get a high pick. They also have their own 2019 first rounder and a shot at both the Grizzlies and the clippers 1st rounders.

So 2019 could be a year where Boston is sitting on 4 1st rounders.

Expect Danny to make one more big time move and use multiple picks to make it happen.

dboss

bobheckler wrote:

swish wrote:Check out the below stats for the game match ups between  Crowder and Hayward during the years when Crowder was with the Celts - 1/26 15 through 1/3/17.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/rzaKa

    swish

swish,

The only games that matter, if at all, are the 5 games that Jae was with the Celtics.  Why "if at all"?  Because of the different systems and roles they each played.  Jae's role with the Dallas Mavericks was much smaller than his with the Celtics and he played under Rick Carlisle, not Brad Stevens.  When he was in Boston, even, he played in a different system than Hayward did in Utah.  Put Jae on Cleveland and his performance could vary greatly, what does that have to do with his time here in Boston?  This is the danger of using historical data to project future results, it works only if "all other things being equal" which, with different players on different teams playing in different systems they aren't.  Quinn Snyder's system is not Brad Stevens', nor are their team rosters very similar.  Their front court, especially before we got Horford, is vastly superior to ours, and that changes how the games are played against each other.

Jae Crowder had an awful first game as a Celtic vs Utah, just 5 points in 15 minutes.  I don't know why.  The other games he played comparable minutes to Hayward.

In the 4 comparable-minutes games, /game numbers:

......................................Average mpg...................ppg..............fg%.............TRB.........ast..........TO........ast/TO
Jae Crowder.....................34:08.............................19.5.............56.3.............3.5...........2.0.........0.0.......infinity (any number/0 = infinity)
Gordon Hayward..............36:24..............................18.3.............39.3.............3.0..........3.75.......2.5........1.5:1

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with these stats were, but if they were intended to highlight how the gaining of an All-Star is an upgrade over a player who has not been an All-Star (and probably never will be) is an upgrade, I'm afraid it has only made me miss Jae Crowder more.

Let's hope that Hayward thrives in Brad's system like Jae did.  Maybe then his numbers will look better.


bob


.

interpreting stats is a dangerous occupation.

Hayward is the better player because he has more tools in his kit. Simply looking at head to head matchups does not show the whole picture. I think Jae is a really good player but he has a weak handle and cannot pass the ball worth a damn. He is a more physical player than Hayward but that is the only edge I can honestly give him.

dboss

There are stats LOTS of them but the only one that matters is the left one that is under that big W .

Certainly to get those W's you need skilled players and it is apparent to me we are MORE skilled this year than last. And potentially a WHOLE lot more.

beat

bobheckler wrote:

swish wrote:Check out the below stats for the game match ups between  Crowder and Hayward during the years when Crowder was with the Celts - 1/26 15 through 1/3/17.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/rzaKa

    swish

swish,

The only games that matter, if at all, are the 5 games that Jae was with the Celtics.  Why "if at all"?  Because of the different systems and roles they each played.  Jae's role with the Dallas Mavericks was much smaller than his with the Celtics and he played under Rick Carlisle, not Brad Stevens.  When he was in Boston, even, he played in a different system than Hayward did in Utah.  Put Jae on Cleveland and his performance could vary greatly, what does that have to do with his time here in Boston?  This is the danger of using historical data to project future results, it works only if "all other things being equal" which, with different players on different teams playing in different systems they aren't.  Quinn Snyder's system is not Brad Stevens', nor are their team rosters very similar.  Their front court, especially before we got Horford, is vastly superior to ours, and that changes how the games are played against each other.

Jae Crowder had an awful first game as a Celtic vs Utah, just 5 points in 15 minutes.  I don't know why.  The other games he played comparable minutes to Hayward.

In the 4 comparable-minutes games, /game numbers:

......................................Average mpg...................ppg..............fg%.............TRB.........ast..........TO........ast/TO
Jae Crowder.....................34:08.............................19.5.............56.3.............3.5...........2.0.........0.0.......infinity (any number/0 = infinity)
Gordon Hayward..............36:24..............................18.3.............39.3.............3.0..........3.75.......2.5........1.5:1

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with these stats were, but if they were intended to highlight how the gaining of an All-Star is an upgrade over a player who has not been an All-Star (and probably never will be) is an upgrade, I'm afraid it has only made me miss Jae Crowder more.

Let's hope that Hayward thrives in Brad's system like Jae did.  Maybe then his numbers will look better.


bob


.

"I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with these stats were, but if they were intended to highlight how the gaining of an All-Star is an upgrade over a player who has not been an All-Star (and probably never will be) is an upgrade, I'm afraid it has only made me miss Jae Crowder more."

Just pointing out the fact that Crowder posted some very good numbers against the Jazz and Hayward - and the fact that he has been a very consistent and efficient scorer for the Celts. His numbers against the rest of the league are equally impressive.

swish

swish wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

swish wrote:Check out the below stats for the game match ups between  Crowder and Hayward during the years when Crowder was with the Celts - 1/26 15 through 1/3/17.

   http://bkref.com/tiny/rzaKa

    swish

swish,

The only games that matter, if at all, are the 5 games that Jae was with the Celtics.  Why "if at all"?  Because of the different systems and roles they each played.  Jae's role with the Dallas Mavericks was much smaller than his with the Celtics and he played under Rick Carlisle, not Brad Stevens.  When he was in Boston, even, he played in a different system than Hayward did in Utah.  Put Jae on Cleveland and his performance could vary greatly, what does that have to do with his time here in Boston?  This is the danger of using historical data to project future results, it works only if "all other things being equal" which, with different players on different teams playing in different systems they aren't.  Quinn Snyder's system is not Brad Stevens', nor are their team rosters very similar.  Their front court, especially before we got Horford, is vastly superior to ours, and that changes how the games are played against each other.

Jae Crowder had an awful first game as a Celtic vs Utah, just 5 points in 15 minutes.  I don't know why.  The other games he played comparable minutes to Hayward.

In the 4 comparable-minutes games, /game numbers:

......................................Average mpg...................ppg..............fg%.............TRB.........ast..........TO........ast/TO
Jae Crowder.....................34:08.............................19.5.............56.3.............3.5...........2.0.........0.0.......infinity (any number/0 = infinity)
Gordon Hayward..............36:24..............................18.3.............39.3.............3.0..........3.75.......2.5........1.5:1

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with these stats were, but if they were intended to highlight how the gaining of an All-Star is an upgrade over a player who has not been an All-Star (and probably never will be) is an upgrade, I'm afraid it has only made me miss Jae Crowder more.

Let's hope that Hayward thrives in Brad's system like Jae did.  Maybe then his numbers will look better.


bob


.

 "I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with these stats were, but if they were intended to highlight how the gaining of an All-Star is an upgrade over a player who has not been an All-Star (and probably never will be) is an upgrade, I'm afraid it has only made me miss Jae Crowder more."

 Just pointing out the fact that Crowder posted some very good numbers against the Jazz and Hayward - and the fact that he has been a very consistent and efficient scorer for the Celts. His numbers against the rest of the league are equally impressive.

  swish

Swish you are right of course... no argument from me

dboss